Flag-stomping teacher has no regrets, wants student punished

[GennGreymane]

a lot of familiar faces usually say no one should lose their job over speech.... I wonder why they changed their minds?

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

a lot of familiar faces usually say no one should lose their job over speech.... I wonder why they changed their minds?

Starts with an R and ends with an M.

[May90]

a lot of familiar faces usually say no one should lose their job over speech.... I wonder why they changed their minds?

For the same reason why Trump always says that he doesn't care about political correctness and feelings, but every time someone criticizes him in person, he gets all red and starts yelling, "Get him outta here".

[Zecora]

a lot of familiar faces usually say no one should lose their job over speech.... I wonder why they changed their minds?

eeeets muh flag!!! Eeevul libhruls!

[Atrea]

Oh, time for the perennial "anyone who disrespects the US flag is sub-human" dogpile.

Let's watch everyone overreact about a piece of cloth.
I mean, to be perfectly blunt, it's kind of stupid looking anyway.

[Kasierith]

I'm not sure about the details, but if, as he claims, the student indeed violated the rules, then it makes sense.

Well like I have said, I have no problems with the student being disciplined for violation of the school's code of conduct. I strongly doubt that there's more than a slap on the wrist involved with having a cell phone in a class room, though.

I went and specifically looked up N Carolina's defamation laws to make sure they were in line with the national norm, and this is what I found: http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/nort...defamation-law

In North Carolina, a private figure plaintiff bringing a defamation lawsuit must prove that the defendant was at least negligent with respect to the truth or falsity of the allegedly defamatory statements. Public officials, all-purpose public figures, and limited-purpose public figures must prove that the defendant acted with actual malice, i.e., knowing that the statements were false or recklessly disregarding their falsity.

So its pretty interesting since it seems in that state, the bar for defamation differs depending on whether or not a public school teacher is viewed as a public official or a private citizen, since whether or not they're operating as agents of the government in their line of work isn't legally clear.

Either way, though, it seems blatantly ridiculous to argue that an opinion statement that a student found an expressive action to be unpatriotic falls under neglicence as to the truth of falsity of the statement. Because ultimately, it is an opinion... and as the entire point of the exercise was to demonstrate that an unpatriotic act is still protected per the SCOTUS, claiming that his actions could not possible be construed as unpatriotic seems off.

Also, interestingly, I went and confirmed that it is technically a misdemeanor to defile the American flag in N. Carolina. A criminal suit against a private citizen under that law would likely get thrown out per SCOTUS rulings, but it is the standing law of the land and as such his actions were illegal, if not truly able to be prosecuted in court, which gives ample grounds to remove him from a public position.

[ranzino]

None of the Germans that i know would care. The ones in the US might, but the actual ones that i have met wont give a shit.

Uuuh, before anybody thinks about stepping on a german flag: our high and mighty government is not cool about that.
Penalty is prison up to 5 years or hefty fine.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verung...seiner_Symbole

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Being placed on administrative leave is not being criticized...

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You like making stuff up, don't you?

Scroll up, that is a basic synopses of this discussion. Or are you just reverting to the deny, deny, make counter-accusations strategy?

[Ragedaug]

a lot of familiar faces usually say no one should lose their job over speech.... I wonder why they changed their minds?

I'll bet you can't find an example.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Taking offence is exactly what SJW do, they get offended by something that is really not something that you should get offended about. Or well triggered as its so often called, this guy got triggered by someone else stomping on a piece of cloth.

Again, the only thing that should have happened is that kid getting an F, because clearly he did not get the lesson.

Everyone gets offended by things others do. SJWs are made fun of not because they are offended, but because they maintain that them taking offence to the words and actions of others means those people should be prevented from taking those actions and speaking those words. In so far as I can see, this young man made no such demands. But hey, far be it from me to prevent you from making a blatant false-equivalence.

[Deleted]

Its easy to be a patriot when your goal post is saluting a flag

I was going to write something but your post is just better than anything I could have said.


A man has stomped on the flag in class during a lesson? Quick LET'S RUIN HIS LIFE.
You guys have issues at social level.... SERIOUS issues you need to address. This is not healthy.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Since when is it libel to observe that whichever side that can put significantly more lawyers in the courtroom tends to win cases in the US?

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This just in! Teaching students about what you can and can't do under the freedom of speech now makes you a "radical".

Seriously...are we talking about the US or the USSR here? Because one is starting to look much like the other to me...

I dunno man, we gotta stop all those grand flag stompers.

It's quite funny how the people who whine about others getting too easily offended are so easily offended themselves when you find the right issue. They cry about everyone being easily offended wimps and then you stomp on the flag as a demonstration of free speech, not even expressing that he disliked the country, but as an EXAMPLE, and people are getting their panties in knots over it.

So to them I say... get over it, and stop being so easily offended.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

This just reads like you thinking everybody not on your side is a 'liberal'.

You're right, I should just replace liberal with "wrong" and call it a day. Any thoughts on the rest of my point or are you just settling for sharpshooting particulars?

[GennGreymane]

Let me create a parallel for you that makes this obvious:

Say Trump hires someone to be a spokesman. The guy gets up in front of the press and says, "Let me be honest: this guy is a moron." Just speaking his own opinion, one that a lot of people would agree with. Should Trump:

A: Fire the guy.
B: Applaud the guy for exercising his right to free speech.

Well, what would you do? The teacher was teaching what free speech was as a part of a lesson. Was the trump spokesman doing what he was hired to do?

[Jonnusthegreat]

Let me create a parallel for you that makes this obvious:

Say Trump hires someone to be a spokesman. The guy gets up in front of the press and says, "Let me be honest: this guy is a moron." Just speaking his own opinion, one that a lot of people would agree with. Should Trump:

A: Fire the guy.
B: Applaud the guy for exercising his right to free speech.

The difference is, this teacher was teaching students that almost everything is protected under the first amendment (which was his job). Trumps spokesman was not doing his job.

[GennGreymane]

It was an unnecessarily provocative and stupid way to do it. Anyone who is a teacher knows how your actions can be put under a microscope, stomping on the flag is something you have to know will set people off.

I've been in a teaching course where the instructor talks a lot about this. You cannot do anything controversial in a role as a teacher unless the curriculum expressly supports you doing so. It doesn't say, teach freedom of speech by stomping on a flag, and there are tons of other ways to teach this concept effectively. You have a responsibility to be respectful of the beliefs of students in your classroom and your community because the community is putting you in a trusted role. He made a big mistake.

Thats nice

[May90]

Well like I have said, I have no problems with the student being disciplined for violation of the school's code of conduct. I strongly doubt that there's more than a slap on the wrist involved with having a cell phone in a class room, though.

I went and specifically looked up N Carolina's defamation laws to make sure they were in line with the national norm, and this is what I found: http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/nort...defamation-law

In North Carolina, a private figure plaintiff bringing a defamation lawsuit must prove that the defendant was at least negligent with respect to the truth or falsity of the allegedly defamatory statements. Public officials, all-purpose public figures, and limited-purpose public figures must prove that the defendant acted with actual malice, i.e., knowing that the statements were false or recklessly disregarding their falsity.

So its pretty interesting since it seems in that state, the bar for defamation differs depending on whether or not a public school teacher is viewed as a public official or a private citizen, since whether or not they're operating as agents of the government in their line of work isn't legally clear.

Either way, though, it seems blatantly ridiculous to argue that an opinion statement that a student found an expressive action to be unpatriotic falls under neglicence as to the truth of falsity of the statement. Because ultimately, it is an opinion... and as the entire point of the exercise was to demonstrate that an unpatriotic act is still protected per the SCOTUS, claiming that his actions could not possible be construed as unpatriotic seems off.

Also, interestingly, I went and confirmed that it is technically a misdemeanor to defile the American flag in N. Carolina. A criminal suit against a private citizen under that law would likely get thrown out per SCOTUS rulings, but it is the standing law of the land and as such his actions were illegal, if not truly able to be prosecuted in court, which gives ample grounds to remove him from a public position.

The laws on this are pretty complicated, so let's not delve into that.

But as for the act itself, let's continue the chain.
- The teacher exercised his right for free speech by stomping on the flag.
- The student exercised his right for free speech by taking it on camera and demanding that the teacher stops.
- The teacher exercised his right for free speech by scolding the student and asking for him being punished.
- We are exercising our right for free speech in this thread by reacting to what happened.

So there is no double standard in teacher's or anyone else's actions. The fact that the teacher was suspended, actually, is the only aspect of this story that might be considered a violation of free speech, so that's what I ultimately disagree with.

[ControlWarrior]

I dunno man, we gotta stop all those grand flag stompers.

It's quite funny how the people who whine about others getting too easily offended are so easily offended themselves when you find the right issue. They cry about everyone being easily offended wimps and then you stomp on the flag as a demonstration of free speech, not even expressing that he disliked the country, but as an EXAMPLE, and people are getting their panties in knots over it.

So to them I say... get over it, and stop being so easily offended.

So, you contribution is to whine about other people whining? Seems legit.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

The difference is, this teacher was teaching students that almost everything is protected under the first amendment (which was his job). Trumps spokesman was not doing his job.

Most public schools are still funded from local property taxes I believe. If you sufficiently piss off the parents who are directly funding your organization, they can quickly organize against you and demand the superintendent terminate your employment. If he resists, they can pressure local politicians to terminate his. Not saying that is what is going to happen. I'm just saying it is how a person could lose their job in this scenario.

I was assigned to Fort Bragg for 8 years and still rent out a house in Fayetteville. It will be interesting to see how this plays out because there are strong competing political pressures in that city. On the one hand, you have Fort Bragg right there. It is the largest Army base in the country and those who live and work there are very patriotic being so heavily influenced by the military culture. On the other hand, 40% of the city's population is black with 21.6% of them living below the poverty line. They are going to think more favorably of the anti-Americanism prevalent in the Black Lives Matter movement and the greater Democratic umbrella. It remains to be seen whether this teacher will suffer or profit from his demonstration.

[Jonnusthegreat]

It was an unnecessarily provocative and stupid way to do it. Anyone who is a teacher knows how your actions can be put under a microscope, stomping on the flag is something you have to know will set people off.

I've been in a teaching course where the instructor talks a lot about this. You cannot do anything controversial in a role as a teacher unless the curriculum expressly supports you doing so. It doesn't say, teach freedom of speech by stomping on a flag, and there are tons of other ways to teach this concept effectively. You have a responsibility to be respectful of the beliefs of students in your classroom and your community because the community is putting you in a trusted role. He made a big mistake.

Don't you want your students to experience this provocative behavior in a safe place like a classroom, where the intent is to learn how to handle this? Or would you rather their first provocative experience be in public with some patriotic nut with a gun?