Next week's balance changes

[Jondar]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by misusing warcraft logs for this?

It seems as good a means as any to get a look at what classes are capable of, it's certainly more accurate than anecdotes or simcraft.
Handwaving away the fact that there are so few logs of warlocks being represented as doing consistently well on fights, even ones that are basically built for them like DoN says something?

Yes, I can.

What I mean is when people - and there are examples in this thread - post logs and refer to specific parts about those logs (for instance, overall damage done on Heroic Xavius while purposely overlooking the tentacle cheese damage.. or using damage done in the heart phase as a reason why Warlock's aren't good on Il'Gynoth, etc) while ignoring the relevance of them in the actual encounter. Looking at logs and deciphering the information is one thing, looking at them and only focusing on the rankings is another. And the majority of people do the latter.

People are ALSO looking at top team's logs and then comparing them to their own, even though they are not top players playing in top groups, and using that as an excuse as to why they aren't or can't do well.

Are warlocks unplayable? Ofcourse not, but it seems to be a baldfaced lie to pretend they're even remotely as good as many other classes right now when they're beat on ST, beat on their niche fights - beat on just about anything unless you're playing at a better level than your guildmates, but you refuse to accept that as a reason for why you might anecdotally be doing well in your guild because you perceive it as an insult to them.
It was predicted before the raid, it's been supported by the results from raids and it's supported by Blizzard themselves by the look of it - they're not throwing out blanket buffs to the spec because they think it's doing fine, what more do you want?

Define "many other classes." There are only a couple of classes completely outshining warlocks. The rest, we can definitely be neck and neck with when it comes to relevant damage. Does that mean we have to be as good as everyone on single target while maintaining our cleave? No. Does that mean we have to be beating every class? No. But we can absolutely be doing good enough damage to be a factor in the fights.

That does not mean that we don't need tuning, or better mechanics. But that also doesn't mean people should be crybabies about it or insult people and their groups when a Warlock thinks he can and is doing well.

- - - Updated - - -

What the hell groups are you running with where 200-300k ST is considered good and have you seen what other classes are capable of bursting? I'm being serious right now, those numbers are not exactly stellar. FnB alone also will not allow you to keep up with anything the likes of mages or hunters can do.
That's my point. Give me a good reason why something like FnB isn't baseline. The class is fucked by comparison and can't keep up with other actually good RDPS that don't have to choose between AoE and ST. Do you get it yet?

LOL. You're kidding, right? What +difficulty can you not clear with those numbers? What have you even completed in this expansion? And if we're talking Mythic+ what the fuck does it matter if you can keep up with mages and hunters (you know, two of the strongest specs in the game that most other classes also can't keep up with, and keep in mind this is ONE spec of mage and ONE spec of hunter.) if you're all collectively clearing the Mythic+ difficulty on time?

I am genuinely curious about your groups though, because I've noticed you post about how "serious" they are a couple of times as well as cited you "participating in raids." What are your accomplishments thus far?

When fire mages and hunters are bursting 400k to even 500k ST

If you can't ST burst past 400k as a Warlock - Destro or Demo - that's a L2P issue.

Because you haven't played with players that are good at those classes does not mean that it's okay for warlocks to be capped at mediocrity and forced to choose between whether we're able to pull ST or AoE.

I play with people that have multiple top 100 world rankings. Warlocks are a lot more capable than you say they are. They need work and tuning - which we will be getting - but the type of garbage you are spreading is the reason Warlocks look so bad and have a hard time getting into groups.

[TummyBoy]

Huh, I was quoted as posting something I didn't post.

As for affliction in m+, I remember it on beta being very competitive. It's just strange that they would give so many AoE specific buffs to it now.

The sims I read are not 100% credible but they're on simcraft. It's just a preliminary report.

[Irian]

I play with people that have multiple top 100 world rankings. Warlocks are a lot more capable than you say they are. They need work and tuning - which we will be getting - but the type of garbage you are spreading is the reason Warlocks look so bad and have a hard time getting into groups.

And I have personally had single digit rankings on several fights for warlock and US overall before I stopped raiding in WoD. Warlocks aren't in a horrendous place but my original fucking post was saying exactly that. Read it, because apparently you're not seeing my point when I already stated it. This will make us at least alright, but the class needs a revamp of our entire talent system to actually feel and play complete. The design of current warlock talents are not like pretty much any other DPS in the game. I don't know how to make that statement more obvious and I feel like I'm wasting my time with you.

If you can't ST burst past 400k as a Warlock - Destro or Demo - that's a L2P issue.

lmao. Found the bullshitter right here.
You said 250-300k sustained when you're saying that you should feasibly be able to burst easily over 400k as a destro lock. If you're in a group bursting around 400-500k, until about Mythic +12 the boss is not going to live long enough for your damage to fall.

I'm going to be honest, I'm not going to continue arguing with you on this because you are a waste of effort and block-worthy. I already made it clear that I didn't really care to engage in a pissing contest and you spewing out mathematically bullshit numbers isn't helping your case.

[Zuckuss]

Looking forward to the buffs, hopefully I can join the 200k club.

[dofz]

If you can't ST burst past 400k as a Warlock - Destro or Demo - that's a L2P issue.



I play with people that have multiple top 100 world rankings. Warlocks are a lot more capable than you say they are. They need work and tuning - which we will be getting - but the type of garbage you are spreading is the reason Warlocks look so bad and have a hard time getting into groups.

Do you have any logs from mythic+ ? Just curious to see how you are doing compared to your group.

[Jondar]

And I have personally had single digit rankings on several fights for warlock and US overall before I stopped raiding in WoD. Warlocks aren't in a horrendous place but my original fucking post was saying exactly that. Read it, because apparently you're not seeing my point when I already stated it. This will make us at least alright, but the class needs a revamp of our entire talent system to actually feel and play complete. The design of current warlock talents are not like pretty much any other DPS in the game. I don't know how to make that statement more obvious and I feel like I'm wasting my time with you.

Your "original fucking post" was saying that you can't compete well enough in 3+ chest runs. Which is a L2P issue. Which is what I was commenting on - not the rest of whatever it is you were going on about. And I'd love to see those single digit rankings. I really would. For more relevant statistics, I currently have a rank 21 world parse, a top 200 parse, and my guild was the world 150th to clear Heroic EN (we did so on Thursday).

lmao. Found the bullshitter right here.
You said 250-300k sustained when you're saying that you should feasibly be able to burst easily over 400k as a destro lock. If you're in a group bursting around 400-500k, until about Mythic +12 the boss is not going to live long enough for your damage to fall.

Why are you switching the circumstances? Your comment was in regard to the numbers Fire Mages can burst up to.

a pure DPS class with no specs that can ever see those numbers

and that is not true; Warlocks can see those numbers fairly easily. Hell, I can log on and do any boss and take a fuckin' screenshot if you need. Or, you could learn how to play properly and do it yourself.

I already made it clear that I didn't really care to engage in a pissing contest and you spewing out mathematically bullshit numbers isn't helping your case.

> doesn't care to engage in a pissing contest
> can't go two sentences without including an insult or form of mockery

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Do you have any logs from mythic+ ? Just curious to see how you are doing compared to your group.

Logs, no. But I'm more than willing to take screenshots of meters during pulls. I'll grab some for 2, 3, and 4+ targets as well as some boss numbers tomorrow.

I grabbed some screenshots from a +4 PuG I was in earlier for UI purposes, but they'll work here

First pull in BRH:

http://i63.tinypic.com/124tq82.jpg

3 target:

http://i67.tinypic.com/6gvrtk.jpg

Ravencrest:

http://i68.tinypic.com/2a6jmoj.jpg

[DeadmanWalking]

What is there left to nerf about Chaos Bolt? At this rat, it only needs to go UP. It is truly pathetic, it has to be a masterpiece how they managed to fuck this spell and spec up. That's what you get when you have devs that don't play warlocks. They just move things around and thinking they are done for the day.

I see you have worked for blizzard and know their design process.... Or were you just assuming and making up shit in your head because the fantastical "details" sound really good to you and it fits the narrative you like to push?

Typically when I don't know how the baker makes cannoli I don't go around telling people how I think they make it with dog shit.

[Klingers]

Increasing numbers doesn't fix the mechanical problems the class currently has. It's a band-aid because our numbers were too low.

In 7.1 they need to start working on making the class fun to play again.

That's it. It's really hard to pin down exactly what's wrong or how to fix it. Pre-legion locks were just... Better. Mechanically better. Now they feel cludgy. I can't think of a more useful descriptive word than cludgy.

At least the DPS boost and the Insta-RoF (THANK you...) are a start.

[Gaidax]

*snip*

TBH, you are wasting your time really. I kinda chilled, it is clear that no matter what you say, some people are dead set on what they believe and you can't help them and it's kinda pointless to get frustrated over some random strangers you do not know and who are not really worth it and do not affect you in any way whatsoever, so just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and move on.

Think of it positively, if their ranting and bullshitting will bring more buffs, then good for us, really. I would not mind if it ends up snowballing into SoO 2.0, would be fun.

[Jondar]

tbh I blame my spending time in these threads on Starlight farming. It's made me that bored.

[TummyBoy]

TBH, you are wasting your time really. I kinda chilled, it is clear that no matter what you say, some people are dead set on what they believe and you can't help them and it's kinda pointless to get frustrated over some random strangers you do not know and who are not really worth it and do not affect you in any way whatsoever, so just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and move on.

Think of it positively, if their ranting and bullshitting will bring more buffs, then good for us, really. I would not mind if it ends up snowballing into SoO 2.0, would be fun.

Hey, not really related, but if I could bring for pieces to 850 with Obliterum, which would you recommend?

[Gaidax]

Hey, not really related, but if I could bring for pieces to 850 with Obliterum, which would you recommend?

Either Impatient or Fireflash items with higher haste.

As for slot itself, whatever is your worst slot currently ofc.

[dofz]

Looking at the numbers i'm still under the opinion that a class should be able to pull mroe than that given ur gear and during the boss you had hero+

I just doesnt feel satisfying playing a warlock when other classes having amazing cds, while the only one I feel have a big impact is infernal with lord of flames, which sadly has a _10_ minute cooldown? My singletarget burst compared to other classes feels sad if I dont have that.

For 3-4 target cleave we are fine, which would be weird if we werent considering havoc, but when these increases, our burst aoe becomes total garbage, and even with running cataclysm most other classes have a chance to pull far ahead. (Mages being the extreme case) It feels weird with demonic power being around 20% of our dmg in m+ Atleast for me. Doesnt feel as rewarding when your actual spells dont do that much. As for the talent system I feel like we are one of the extreme cases where our talent choices severely hinders either the aoe or singletarget compared to making one of them feel stronger as in most other classes case.

Atleast make shadowfury instant so I feel like i can contribute to the group with something amazing, as lately I've swapped out my imba demon skin for shadowfury with a cast time of a bit over a second when many spells have 1.5sec cast time!!

[Deleted]

Hmm? Affliction is considered better than Destro for Mythic+ IIRC. Seed + GoSac + Phantom + Artifact are all great for dungeon packs. I don't play it myself, because I do fine as Destro, but I thought Affliction's capabiltiies in Mythic+ were pretty common knowledge

Yeah but that makes affliction a one-trick pony. Sure, you can do good AOE, but at the expense of gutting your already rubbish single target. The latest buffs do nothing about that, in fact they make affliction aoe even stronger.

It would have been better to have across the board buffs because aff needs them to be sure, but to concentrate bigger ones in single target, that's where affliction needs help. It's fine for trash, so long as you talent, because for one thing the Gold artifact traits are actually useful

It's in a figh tlike Ursoc where affliction is so awful. Soul Flame, Wrath of Consumption do nothing whatever, and the lack of adds mean you don;t accumulate souls significantly to power up Ulthalesh either. A single target boss like that or Nythendra are a "perfect storm" (of shit) for affliction

Most dps classe shave fights where they are weake ror stronger, but warlocks seem to be particularly stuffed by their binary talent choices where being good at one thing automatically equaly bad at most everything else.

Yet fir emages, mm hunters, etc, they do not have that. For one thing, their artifacts rebalance talents. A fir emage, for example, can minmax talents and still have stuff like Phoenix Flames

Warlock talents do not feel like flexible choices, they feel like punishments that lock us into niche roles

I'd much rather see the dots take a smaller buff which much bigger ones on things liek Drain Soul, you could buff that by 50% without introducing real disruptions, particularly as PVP has modifiers of it;s own

Stronger Drain Soul would address affliction's horrible single target and lack of burst problems, without introducing the usual dilemma of "OP in multidot"

[Jessicka]

Agony makes up about 25% of most parses, so the 5% there is a lot bigger deal than 10% to drain life or life siphon. the UA buff is nice though. This still ignores that Affliction was the worst of the 3 specs and got the least buffs, and it's still worse off that a lot of other specs that also got buffs, like fucking OP as fuck ret paladins now. Ret should do massive damage.

Aff is also very under represented, so the under performance is amplified in the logs, my own experience is that while it's currently definitely weaker than others; it's not a the million miles off the logs suggest (nor is Frost Mage nearly as bad as that looks for the same reasons). It also has by far the most mobility and survivability of our specs; probably the strongest in game in terms of the latter; it's reasonable to expect that to come at a cost.

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@Jondar I caveated that the last 3 fights at the time of posting lacked in quantity of logs. I wasn't misrepresenting them and added them only for completeness. You keep picking on the Xavius log like an anti-vaxxer, or conspiracy theorist ignoring the consistency of under performance across the board; with the exception of Dragons.

[Kathranis]

That's it. It's really hard to pin down exactly what's wrong or how to fix it. Pre-legion locks were just... Better. Mechanically better. Now they feel cludgy. I can't think of a more useful descriptive word than cludgy.

It's a combination of things.

I think the biggest issue for Destruction Warlocks is switching from Burning Embers to Soul Shards. While mechanically similar, the difference between being able to generate partial Embers and thus fill your Embers over time, versus having a binary chance to either generate a Shard or not, is a huge one. It changes the core generator/spender dynamic of your spells into something that feels random and clunky instead of consistent and reliable. Over a long period of time the net result is probably about the same, but in terms of individual fights it makes the core gameplay loop feel considerably worse.

Giving Rain of Fire a cast time and turning it into a 3x Soul Shard spender was also a huge mistake, so making it instant should at least help a bit. Personally I still don't get why Fire and Brimstone isn't just a Blade Flurry style toggle.

Of course, the gradual reduction in mobility over time has also made the class less fun to play in general, and over the last few years they've consistently removed core abilities only to reintroduce them as optional talents, while adding virtually no new abilities or mechanics to the class, contributing to an overall feeling that the class is regressing instead of progressing.


Demonology is a cool concept thematically, but feels clunky in practice. They've suggested a desire to make them more like a D2 Necromancer, where you essentially roam around with an army of demons, and that sounds like it would be a much more logical direction to take the spec in, rather than treating their summoned demons as, essentially, clunky DoTs.


I haven't played Affliction enough since Cataclysm to really comment on it.


And then there are other minor issues that seem like they'd be easy to fix, like the lack of even a shitty baseline movement ability, or a baseline interrupt. It also doesn't help that pet AI went to shit in 7.0.1, either. My pets now actively run away from enemies sometimes, and the changes to Assist/Defensive are idiotic. And I think it's a huge issue that there's no real reason to use different pets.

[Deleted]

TBH, you are wasting your time really. I kinda chilled, it is clear that no matter what you say, some people are dead set on what they believe and you can't help them and it's kinda pointless to get frustrated over some random strangers you do not know and who are not really worth it and do not affect you in any way whatsoever, so just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and move on..

My irony sense started tingling when I read that lol

Actually, I don;t mind affliction's playstyle at all, I just think it;s lacking in damage outside of aoe, the talents tend to lock you into niche roles when they don;t for other classes

And of course the broken artifact, yes, it is broken, since Flame and Wrath are designed to work with a Reap Soul mechanic they took away. I know why they took it away, but as it stands the two Golds are overpowered in Skorpyron and utterly without any use whatever in Ursoc. Which is just bad. Clearly RS was designed to provde the flow of adds required when you're doing a boss that has none.

[Gaidax]

My irony sense started tingling when I read that lol

Actually, I don;t mind affliction's playstyle at all, I just think it;s lacking in damage outside of aoe, the talents tend to lock you into niche roles when they don;t for other classes

And of course the broken artifact, yes, it is broken, since Flame and Wrath are designed to work with a Reap Soul mechanic they took away. I know why they took it away, but as it stands the two Golds are overpowered in Skorpyron and utterly without any use whatever in Ursoc. Which is just bad. Clearly RS was designed to provde the flow of adds required when you're doing a boss that has none.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah man, whatever... artifact broken yada yada... that is not the real issue with affliction, but ok, whatever floats your boat.

[Inshabel]

Affliction should go back to a Malefic Grasp or Haunt mechanic to avoid making multidotting too strong atm it feels weak and uninvolves on single target.

[Gaidax]

Affliction should go back to a Malefic Grasp or Haunt mechanic to avoid making multidotting too strong atm it feels weak and uninvolves on single target.

Well I think it's easy to solve just by making filler much more powerful. It is explicitly single target, so won't affect multidotting. Or maybe reward stacking UA more.