First presidential debate - September 26: Trump vs Hillary

[LaserSharkDFB]

It's pretty funny that it is well documented that Trump has never done any illicit drugs in his entire life.

Also, Howard Dean is a fucking imbecile, so there is that...

How exactly do you document the absence of drug use?

[gusty jack]

It's pretty funny that it is well documented that Trump has never done any illicit drugs in his entire life.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence says that he's a major coke user and has been since the 80's, which nicely counters the anecdotal evidence that he's never done drugs in his life.

The only truth is that we don't actually know shit.

[Endus]

It's pretty funny that it is well documented that Trump has never done any illicit drugs in his entire life.

Unless you have his drug test records taken pretty much twice a week for his entire life, you can't possibly make this claim.

[Breccia]

I personally feel like Virginia will go blue

Yes, but my point is, it's blue NOW. Basically every poll has a medium to strong lead for Clinton in VA, and she also just got the Warner nod. Your map shows the opposite. I don't understand that.

Again I agree with your sentiment about the election. VA being red just threw me off because it doesn't reflect the current situation -- or the last few months, either.

[May90]

Suurrre he hasn't....

Listen, I'm no party girl but I know what coke behavior looks/sounds like.

I don't know what it looks/sounds like, but it was pretty clear that something was going on with Trump. He behaved strangely even by his usual standards. Initially I thought he got cold because of all the sniffing, but eye twitching and weird hand motions indicated that something else was at play.

The question is, what should be going on in your head to make you conclude that taking coke before, possibly, the most important debate in your life is a good idea?

[Celista]

I don't know what it looks/sounds like, but it was pretty clear that something was going on with Trump. He behaved strangely even by his usual standards. Initially I thought he got cold because of all the sniffing, but eye twitching and weird hand motions indicated that something else was at play.

The question is, what should be going on in your head to make you conclude that taking coke before, possibly, the most important debate in your life is a good idea?

Rapid speech too, in the beginning...he probably thinks he can think better/sounds more intelligent after doing a line of coke, such thinking is pretty typical of regular drug users.

[DocSavageFan]

He really did - the man is utterly baitable - almost like a pre-teen.

What gets me is why someone like you, obviously bright and reasonably coherent (j/k - your posts are well thought out, and I appreciate you admitting the issue when so many others would not have - I would like to think I am one who would, too) can support such a lying buffoon.

All Trump does is lie. He lied about what he said in the debate right after the debate ended - almost the first thing he did. He's awful, and seems to want everyone to know it (see previous discussion on his inability to prep for the debate - or non-desire, if I can use that as a word).

What do people see in him that's supportable? And more importantly, what do people see in him that makes them think he could be President?

If lying is that much of a problem for you, how can you support Hillary? Does his shit somehow stink worse than hers? That argument is highly subjective and frankly bores me as it never amounts to anything.

But I will take a stab at your last question which is an excellent question imo...I believe the answer is 'hope and change'. And I'm not trying to be cute here (well maybe a little), but a lot of people in this country don't share your world view and they see us going the wrong direction at a breakneck speed. Most of Trump's supporters see him (despite all his obvious faults) as someone who is legitimately concerned and driven to fundamentally change our nation's path. We've been hemorrhaging decent paying jobs for decades and then complain about the wealth gap and decline of the middle class as if they're unrelated. A lot of people in this country are hurting and Trump's most compelling message to the masses is that he genuinely wants those good paying jobs back as well as those corporations who fled our country due to our oppressive tax laws. Beyond that, I don't think anybody really cares if he said something stupid or perhaps lied about being against a war that happened a long time ago. That's just noise to most. I honestly don't know whether I'm going to vote for Trump or not...but I do know that I will never vote for Hillary as damn near everything she has touched in her career has turned to shit imo...everything.

[LaserSharkDFB]

I don't know what it looks/sounds like, but it was pretty clear that something was going on with Trump. He behaved strangely even by his usual standards. Initially I thought he got cold because of all the sniffing, but eye twitching and weird hand motions indicated that something else was at play.

The question is, what should be going on in your head to make you conclude that taking coke before, possibly, the most important debate in your life is a good idea?

Honestly, I kinda doubt the cocaine theory, and there's no way to prove it in any case. I'm happy to accept Trump's explanation... as soon as he provides one. (Seriously, admitting a slight runny nose would not destroy his campaign. 'The mic was defective' is not convincing in the slightest.)

[May90]

Rapid speech too, in the beginning...he probably thinks he can think better/sounds more intelligent after doing a line of coke, such thinking is pretty typical of regular drug users.

I think one of the two other version is also likely.

1) He doesn't deal well with stress and needs a boost for it.
2) He wanted to be especially aggressive on this particular debate, and drugs help one be less self-conscious and more direct.

Honestly, I kinda doubt the cocaine theory, and there's no way to prove it in any case. I'm happy to accept Trump's explanation... as soon as he provides one. (Seriously, admitting a slight runny nose would not destroy his campaign. 'The mic was defective' is not convincing in the slightest.)

I'm also not entirely convinced, mainly because I don't know much about coke. But something was definitely off.

Hillary, on the other hand... She looked good! I didn't expect it from her, to be honest, but she actually looked attractive to me on that particular event.

[unfilteredJW]

Rapid speech too, in the beginning...he probably thinks he can think better/sounds more intelligent after doing a line of coke, such thinking is pretty typical of regular drug users.

I keep seeing coke brought up but I've seen these tells from stuff like Vyvanse as well.

[Endus]

If lying is that much of a problem for you, how can you support Hillary? Does his shit somehow stink worse than hers?

When the question is "which of the two of these nominees lies like a bad habit, and which only occasionally oversteps the bounds of truth", there's a real simple answer; Trump's the one who has to wear asbestos pants every day.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

70% "mostly false", "false", or "pants on fire".

http://www.politifact.com/personalit...llary-clinton/

27% "mostly false", "false", and "pants on fire".

And even that comparison really isn't fair, since Clinton's is heavily weighted towards the "mostly false" end of things (15% of the total, only 2% "pants on fire), whereas Trump's is half "false", and equally split between the other two.

So yes; Trump's "shit" in this case is objectively, definitively far worse than Clinton's.

[tangocash]

I keep seeing coke brought up but I've seen these tells from stuff like Vyvanse as well.

Adderall used to make me sniff a lot when I took it. A lot of successful businessmen like to take it too or Vyvanse, Concerta, Ritalin etc which pretty much act the same way. Adderall made me really thirsty too. Maybe he was on that.

[Jester Joe]

All Trump had to do was not be insulting, to not "attack", and to not play into Hillary's (and the entire media's) portrayal of him as ill-tempered and irrational. Every time that Hillary goaded him (and the were ample opportunities where he could have destroyed her with one-liners) he chose to take the high road and act "Presidential". He did not lose his temper one time (which the Clinton camp was actually counting on that he would.)

"Policy" and "facts"- that is not where the election will be won. Elections are won on persuasion - and Trump clearly won the election Monday night.

From what I've heard, he spent quite a bit of time yelling and interrupting.

Granted, he might not of insulted, but that doesn't suddenly erase all the insulting he did in the past.

[Breccia]

Now that Politifact has brought up the stop and frisk in New York City, the mayor of New York City added his thoughts as well.

"Let's review some history. When our recently retired police commissioner, Bill Bratton, started his first tour of duty in 1994, he and his team instituted data-driven, precision policing. The so-called CompStat system allowed police to see exactly where crime was occurring in real time, apply resources in a targeted way, and stop crime in its tracks."

"That's what began the extraordinary crime drop in New York City. Thanks to precision policing and the bravery and hard work of New Yorkers and our police, a city that once experienced more than 2,000 murders in a year mourned 352 last year."

"Stop-and-frisk was not a driver of that public safety process. Donald Trump's refusal to admit this and his willingness to inflame tensions for political purposes isn't just foolish. It's dangerous. "

The murder rate in NYC has fallen fairly consistently since 1990. Violent crime has about the same trend. Stop and frisk really only started being separately documented in 2002, but since then provably peaked 2011 and declined dramatically since. It is unrealistic to think stop and frisk is responsible for the drop in murders, or other crimes, based on these results. Pushing a "law and order" agenda based on something that was found unconstitutional (hey Trump said New York, not me) because it was racist, but which has no provable effect on crime, doesn't seem to be a good idea.

[Edge-]

From what I've heard, he spent quite a bit of time yelling and interrupting.

Correct on both accounts.

Granted, he might not of insulted, but that doesn't suddenly erase all the insulting he did in the past.

Or the insulting he did in the 24 hours following the debate : D

[May90]

Here is a good interview on that:

[Helais]

If lying is that much of a problem for you, how can you support Hillary? Does his shit somehow stink worse than hers? That argument is highly subjective and frankly bores me as it never amounts to anything.

But I will take a stab at your last question which is an excellent question imo...I believe the answer is 'hope and change'. And I'm not trying to be cute here (well maybe a little), but a lot of people in this country don't share your world view and they see us going the wrong direction at a breakneck speed. Most of Trump's supporters see him (despite all his obvious faults) as someone who is legitimately concerned and driven to fundamentally change our nation's path. We've been hemorrhaging decent paying jobs for decades and then complain about the wealth gap and decline of the middle class as if they're unrelated. A lot of people in this country are hurting and Trump's most compelling message to the masses is that he genuinely wants those good paying jobs back as well as those corporations who fled our country due to our oppressive tax laws. Beyond that, I don't think anybody really cares if he said something stupid or perhaps lied about being against a war that happened a long time ago. That's just noise to most. I honestly don't know whether I'm going to vote for Trump or not...but I do know that I will never vote for Hillary as damn near everything she has touched in her career has turned to shit imo...everything.

Both sides want to build the middle class back up, or at least claim to. However, Trump already has behavior of sending jobs overseas(China, Mexico, etc) and not paying workers for the jobs they have done.

Show everything that Hillary has done that turned to shit. Speaking in generalizations does nothing for your argument all it does is promote feels over facts.

[Celista]

I keep seeing coke brought up but I've seen these tells from stuff like Vyvanse as well.

Sure, it is possible. Also possible he had a cold and was hella nervous, which would explain the odd behavior.

I personally think it was cocaine, the half-life of cocaine is much shorter than that of prescription stimulants used for the treatment of ADHD and if you notice his symptoms dropped off significantly after the first 20 minutes of the debate.

[cubby]

If lying is that much of a problem for you, how can you support Hillary? Does his shit somehow stink worse than hers? That argument is highly subjective and frankly bores me as it never amounts to anything.

That's a good question as well, and if you'll bear with me, I will explain. Your point (as is many others) is that Hillary is a liar and untrustworthy, a claim that is validated by her unfavorable ratings - regardless of the veracity of the claims themselves. It would be easy for me to say that she doesn't lie as much as Trump (she doesn't) or that he lies much more than she does (he does) - but both those claims are tough, in a tight period of time, to demonstrate to your satisfaction (or, honestly, if it would ever change your mind - if our roles were reversed, I'm not sure you could, if you'll pardon the whimsical).

The real, honest answer is that Hillary doesn't lie - she certainly does her fair share of the shake and jive, just as many other politicians do. Trump lies, and he does it almost every time he speaks. But again, how to prove it to you (or anyone who feels this way)?

If we look at the last public debate of both candidates, we can find the answer. Most of the fact checking analysis is in, and the results are clear. While Hillary certainly played with the truth a little with her TPP answer, that was as close as she got to lying. Trump, however, lied with almost every question he answered - and even while interrupting Hillary.

I'm not advocating a dismissal of past behavior, however, if past behavior is tough to wade through, then we should examine most recent, objective example of behavior. And that examination demonstrates the truth - Trump lies almost every time he speaks. Hillary, not even close.

But I will take a stab at your last question which is an excellent question imo...I believe the answer is 'hope and change'. And I'm not trying to be cute here (well maybe a little), but a lot of people in this country don't share your world view and they see us going the wrong direction at a breakneck speed. Most of Trump's supporters see him (despite all his obvious faults) as someone who is legitimately concerned and driven to fundamentally change our nation's path. We've been hemorrhaging decent paying jobs for decades and then complain about the wealth gap and decline of the middle class as if they're unrelated. A lot of people in this country are hurting and Trump's most compelling message to the masses is that he genuinely wants those good paying jobs back as well as those corporations who fled our country due to our oppressive tax laws. Beyond that, I don't think anybody really cares if he said something stupid or perhaps lied about being against a war that happened a long time ago. That's just noise to most. I honestly don't know whether I'm going to vote for Trump or not...but I do know that I will never vote for Hillary as damn near everything she has touched in her career has turned to shit imo...everything.

I appreciate this point - and I think you hit on the truth of why some intelligent, thoughtful people are in his camp (and not just because they irrationally or ignorantly hate Hillary). My question, after reading this through twice, is do you honestly think a man who stiffs his employees (and he did this as recently as this year), mocks and degrades women and people with disabilities, had bankrupted his companies not once but six times, will really help the middle class?

[unfilteredJW]

Sure, it is possible. Also possible he had a cold and was hella nervous, which would explain the odd behavior.

I personally think it was cocaine, the half-life of cocaine is much shorter than that of prescription stimulants used for the treatment of ADHD and if you notice his symptoms dropped off significantly after the first 20 minutes of the debate.

Yeah, as a user of both (the illegal one when I was younger), I found him to act about how I can sometimes until I get a "surge" under control. If it was coke, that would explain the roller coaster of crazy he showed at the end as the fiending kicks in. I've just seen people "abusing" adderol and the like act the same way.

Minus being a giant douche canoe.