RIP Mythic Il'gynoth zerg

[Tradu]

No, there shouldn't be an Alpha or beta. Fights should be unknown when they hit live servers. Also, there's significantly more players doing raids on live, so you might not catch every "exploit" or creative way of thinking during beta.

Sure, ideally all fights should be unknown, but clearly their internal raid testing team is not very creative(or even competent), otherwise this kind of stuff would not be happening all the time. And basically all of the stuff that's causing issues/getting fixed now was reported in beta, so it's on them for not doing anything with the feedback they were given.

[tratra]

I am very keen that blizzard returns to not testing raids at all, and letting guilds progress into raids like it was happening in the past.

Let somethings unknown to us and everyone really, and of course best guilds are going to find a way to prove they are, bug or no bug. Hotfix bug's that disallow players from completing the raid and of course make an example of guilds that abuse a bug to get world top 5 or something.

Once that's done and the race is over, just let the raid be as it is and allow other guilds etc to follow up.

Obviously am not saying that Illgnoth bug is not supposed to be fixed, although its a bit too late to fix it now since there are so many guilds that have defeated him, and kudos to them finding out that they can zerg it, they surely changed the fight and at the same time its just harsh for you saying to people that try to progress through him spend many raiding hours to complete him. Kinda of what happened with the legendary bug that you allowed people running with 3-4 legendaries in their bags while there are people out there with none.

[mitbrandir]

Dragons don't do their pulsing dmg till they go sub 50% and breath is out ranged

The range on breath is quite mental. It can almost reach the place where cenarius spawns at from the back of the room. Add to that that you need a good spread for the single and double sisters (wave 2 and 3) and can't place roots in a bad place, which is something that can easily wipe you if placed or kited poorly. The only wave where I felt I was really outranging the dragon is during wave #1
.

[BiggestNoob]

Been thinking the Ilgy thing over - 20% more damage from bloods means they do 4.8% per, so need 21 bloods to progress, right? In which case, the speed of the encounter hasn't really improved at all. You'd get to 20 as you kill the big add going into the second set of flowers, then tentacles start spawning regularly and you need a single blood from those tentacles to push the phase. But you have to keep smashing the tentacles and bloods down as they pop up for the next half-minute or so anyway, just like we do now; There's just more bloods leftover that doesn't have to go on the eye.

Well it's not as big of a concern to get in and spend every second of possible uptime like it currently is, so you can totally get them low then pop the eye and kill remaining adds without spawning more.

I'm a bit concerned with the precedent this sets though. When we're really geared (885+ raid ilvls) during farm of this place, we won't ever be able to 1-phase this fight. They're basically forcing us to deal with P2, and until we're overgeared that's going to require lusting there as well (the timing between those tentacles and the corruptor spawns is fairly tight, and it was on 30m heroic as well).

Maybe they should've just upped the DPS requirement slightly to 1-phase so it's only going to happen once we get more gear and won't be a viable route to progression. Outside of Serenity's class stacking at 868 ilvl, a good 10-15% bump in HP would've just forced people to kill it with 2 phases in progression or if their raid's DPS/comp isn't excellent.

Report any guilds that are abusing this. They've suspended accounts for abusing less in raids.

I doubt they will. Butcher is an example of a similar exploit that they never fixed or punished. There are some worse exploits than that happening in this raid even by top guilds we know Blizzard was watching and none of them have been punished and the bugs haven't been fixed (aside from oversights like Renferal's HP).

[TheRabidDeer]

I doubt they will. Butcher is an example of a similar exploit that they never fixed or punished. There are some worse exploits than that happening in this raid even by top guilds we know Blizzard was watching and none of them have been punished and the bugs haven't been fixed (aside from oversights like Renferal's HP).

I didn't raid in the beginning of WoD, what was the Butcher exploit? I know Blizzard has issued a huge number of suspensions in the past over exploits.

Few examples:
World first lich king kill: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...d-for-72-Hours
World first yogg +0 kill: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Suspended-72H
Exploiting LFR loot: https://www.engadget.com/2011/12/06/...xploit-conseq/

And I remember a few other situations too where they gave out suspensions for kills. Let Blizzard know about the exploit and it will get fixed and people will be suspended.

[Ophenia]

I didn't raid in the beginning of WoD, what was the Butcher exploit? I know Blizzard has issued a huge number of suspensions in the past over exploits.

Tanking Butcher in the water completely negates the adds' effects.

"Regular" strategy supposed your ranged dps had to be aware and soak the adds coming from everywhere. If you tank Butcher in the water, you don't even have to deal with the adds, so you can focus 100% on the boss (and it was a dps-check so, that's a huge advantage).

[BiggestNoob]

I didn't raid in the beginning of WoD, what was the Butcher exploit? I know Blizzard has issued a huge number of suspensions in the past over exploits.

If you tanked him in the water the adds would all funnel and could be dealt with much more easily.

Intended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kyT2hw4qY
Water tanking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZUp6t_zSoM

[Arcanines]

I am very keen that blizzard returns to not testing raids at all, and letting guilds progress into raids like it was happening in the past.

Let somethings unknown to us and everyone really, and of course best guilds are going to find a way to prove they are, bug or no bug. Hotfix bug's that disallow players from completing the raid and of course make an example of guilds that abuse a bug to get world top 5 or something.

Once that's done and the race is over, just let the raid be as it is and allow other guilds etc to follow up.

Obviously am not saying that Illgnoth bug is not supposed to be fixed, although its a bit too late to fix it now since there are so many guilds that have defeated him, and kudos to them finding out that they can zerg it, they surely changed the fight and at the same time its just harsh for you saying to people that try to progress through him spend many raiding hours to complete him. Kinda of what happened with the legendary bug that you allowed people running with 3-4 legendaries in their bags while there are people out there with none.

Still not a bug, just buffing the boss HP due to guilds stacking single target burst classes.

[TheRabidDeer]

If you tanked him in the water the adds would all funnel and could be dealt with much more easily.

Intended: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kyT2hw4qY
Water tanking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZUp6t_zSoM

No guilds got any action taken against them for that? Did Blizz ever comment? It looks like positioning still matters, especially after the knockback but yeah definitely questionable. I think the Ursoc one is a bit more severe though

[Dracodraco]

The range on breath is quite mental. It can almost reach the place where cenarius spawns at from the back of the room. Add to that that you need a good spread for the single and double sisters (wave 2 and 3) and can't place roots in a bad place, which is something that can easily wipe you if placed or kited poorly. The only wave where I felt I was really outranging the dragon is during wave #1
.

That's fair. It never looked to be a problem in the videos, but that's why they're kills; Nothing major went wrong.

Well it's not as big of a concern to get in and spend every second of possible uptime like it currently is, so you can totally get them low then pop the eye and kill remaining adds without spawning more.

I'm a bit concerned with the precedent this sets though. When we're really geared (885+ raid ilvls) during farm of this place, we won't ever be able to 1-phase this fight. They're basically forcing us to deal with P2, and until we're overgeared that's going to require lusting there as well (the timing between those tentacles and the corruptor spawns is fairly tight, and it was on 30m heroic as well).

Maybe they should've just upped the DPS requirement slightly to 1-phase so it's only going to happen once we get more gear and won't be a viable route to progression. Outside of Serenity's class stacking at 868 ilvl, a good 10-15% bump in HP would've just forced people to kill it with 2 phases in progression or if their raid's DPS/comp isn't excellent.

Oh I'm not concerned about getting in and spending every second of uptime; Far from it, really. It's more the fact that they literally state that the change to bloods was done to speed up the overall speed of the encounter; Which totally isn't going to happen, because we were never bothered with the bloods' damage. We were always just waiting for the moment in the fight where we could enter "cleanly", and that won't change. Which seems dumb.

As for not being able to 1 phase with higher gear, do remember that killing the eye supposedly removes 33% health - this should work the first time around as well. So ultimate HP will be:

466*2 = 932 *0.67 to remove 33% = 624M. Second time around, another 300M is chopped off, meaning we have to do 300M damage over two phases, rather than 466M over one. If you want to push it in one phase, you need to up your output by about 25%; Probably not realistic, but who knows, really.

Tanking Butcher in the water completely negates the adds' effects.

"Regular" strategy supposed your ranged dps had to be aware and soak the adds coming from everywhere. If you tank Butcher in the water, you don't even have to deal with the adds, so you can focus 100% on the boss (and it was a dps-check so, that's a huge advantage).

One could argue that it's more the funneling that's causing the issue than negating the adds; The adds are still very much there, and they will very much kill anyone who takes a step to the wrong side. Adds were always supposed to explode when they hit Butcher, because the pools would make it difficult for melee to find space. It's taking advantage of being able to get every single add to hit the same spot consistently that's the "exploity"-part; The mechanic isn't removed.

Butcher and Ursoc are very similiar encounters, though; so think of it this way: If standing on top of the stairs would have made butcher not do his knockback/jump, entirely negating the effect of it because the targets were stood in a specific spot, that'd be a bug, because it's unexpected behaviour. The adds are doing exactly what the devs expected them to do - home in on butcher and hit him and spawn pools, which is probably why it was never fixed.

[Quotey]

I am very keen that blizzard returns to not testing raids at all, and letting guilds progress into raids like it was happening in the past.

this wouldn't work at all. not testing is how you get fights like mythic xavius with nothing really new and wildly undertuned for its position in the instance. christ, even bosses that get tested make it live with bugs and insane health values (BRF Kormrok- when BL got there the boss had, what, 40% more HP? and the LOS rocks just didn't work sometimes. fuck, the second one probably still happens).

[Arrowstormen]

Of course fights should be fixed if Blizzard feels like they need fixing despite the fact that some people have beaten the encounter. The vast, vast, VAST majority of people will never do mythic, and a lot of people who will won't get to it any time soon. The guilds who already have the gear and the people to do Mythic are a minority of a minority (of a minority).

[Tehterokkar]

That's fair. It never looked to be a problem in the videos, but that's why they're kills; Nothing major went wrong.





Oh I'm not concerned about getting in and spending every second of uptime; Far from it, really. It's more the fact that they literally state that the change to bloods was done to speed up the overall speed of the encounter; Which totally isn't going to happen, because we were never bothered with the bloods' damage. We were always just waiting for the moment in the fight where we could enter "cleanly", and that won't change. Which seems dumb.

As for not being able to 1 phase with higher gear, do remember that killing the eye supposedly removes 33% health - this should work the first time around as well. So ultimate HP will be:

466*2 = 932 *0.67 to remove 33% = 624M. Second time around, another 300M is chopped off, meaning we have to do 300M damage over two phases, rather than 466M over one. If you want to push it in one phase, you need to up your output by about 25%; Probably not realistic, but who knows, really.

[/FONT]

1. Breath range is 40-45 yards. Tanking them in 1 corner reaches roughly the middle of the room.

2. Il'gynoth math is wrong. His health was increased by 200%, not 100%. So it's a 3x multiplier. Meaning total health is 1338m. Then subtracting 66% off that, the total dmg you need spread over 2 1 minute burst phases is roughly 455m, which is pretty much what guilds did to him to 1 phase it pre-nerf.

[Dracodraco]

1. Breath range is 40-45 yards. Tanking them in 1 corner reaches roughly the middle of the room.

2. Il'gynoth math is wrong. His health was increased by 200%, not 100%. So it's a 3x multiplier. Meaning total health is 1338m. Then subtracting 66% off that, the total dmg you need spread over 2 1 minute burst phases is roughly 455m, which is pretty much what guilds did to him to 1 phase it pre-nerf.

Yea, says by, not to, fair - missed that. Question is, is second cast on mythic also 90 seconds like it is on heroic? Time to see if anyone actually did the encounter without zerging it.

As for the breath, eh, I guess there should be relatively plenty of room in half of the arena? Dunno, not been there yet.

[Tehterokkar]

Yea, says by, not to, fair - missed that. Question is, is second cast on mythic also 90 seconds like it is on heroic? Time to see if anyone actually did the encounter without zerging it.

As for the breath, eh, I guess there should be relatively plenty of room in half of the arena? Dunno, not been there yet.

There is indeed plenty of room for the other 18 people to spread out during double sister. As long as you have Rogues/Shadow Priests/Hunters cleaning the room of bramble patches just before they appear.

Method is the only guild so far that I know did it the intended way on week 1. The timer is 55s according to Method's vid in 2nd p2.

[Fevyz]

Yea, says by, not to, fair - missed that. Question is, is second cast on mythic also 90 seconds like it is on heroic? Time to see if anyone actually did the encounter without zerging it.

As for the breath, eh, I guess there should be relatively plenty of room in half of the arena? Dunno, not been there yet.

There is plenty of room to avoid the breaths if your tanks are capable, we had plenty of space on our kill.

[Dracodraco]

There is indeed plenty of room for the other 18 people to spread out during double sister. As long as you have Rogues/Shadow Priests/Hunters cleaning the room of bramble patches just before they appear.

Method is the only guild so far that I know did it the intended way on week 1. The timer is 55s according to Method's vid in 2nd p2.

50 seconds and 55 seconds realistically, then (assuming instant uptime) - you're exitting the room early first time around due to the mass debuffs that has to get out, so only half the raid stays back. I do like how they're using a third tank purely for blood control though, can imagine that makes it a lot less of a hassle having a 15 second target-grip. Hrm.

As for breaths, yea; I sort of figured they shouldn't be an issue, but the other dude said they had massive reach :P.

[Tehterokkar]

50 seconds and 55 seconds realistically, then (assuming instant uptime) - you're exitting the room early first time around due to the mass debuffs that has to get out, so only half the raid stays back. I do like how they're using a third tank purely for blood control though, can imagine that makes it a lot less of a hassle having a 15 second target-grip. Hrm.

As for breaths, yea; I sort of figured they shouldn't be an issue, but the other dude said they had massive reach :P.

Our Blood DK managed grips fine solo, though I can't speak for 2nd P1 yet how it will be. But I doubt it's much different. Most of the time we just used Shaman Thunderstorm or Druid Typhoon to get bloods in range of the eye, only when absolutely necessary(eg. when Death Blossoms were happening), we relied on a grip.

[Adramelch]

While I don't mind the principle of the buff, I do hope it goes live with the reset rather than instantly

I guess you'll have noticed it by now but "All dungeon and raid hotfixes will take effect with realm restarts in each region.".

[Squishei]

Been thinking the Ilgy thing over - 20% more damage from bloods means they do 4.8% per, so need 21 bloods to progress, right? In which case, the speed of the encounter hasn't really improved at all. You'd get to 20 as you kill the big add going into the second set of flowers, then tentacles start spawning regularly and you need a single blood from those tentacles to push the phase. But you have to keep smashing the tentacles and bloods down as they pop up for the next half-minute or so anyway, just like we do now; There's just more bloods leftover that doesn't have to go on the eye.

I managed to misread and do math wrong and though it was 20 bloods. In my head that made a lot of sense considering the horror makes 20 (or 24 in the second phase). 21 seems really stupid, and I'm really hoping the hotfix wording is just wrong and means 20% less bloods to destroy the eye.