Fire Mage trash DPS/AoE help.

[MrInvayne]

For what it's worth, a mage that completed Mythic +15 VoW uses kindling and casted flamestrike 7 times.

[Deleted]

For what it's worth, a mage that completed Mythic +15 VoW uses kindling and casted flamestrike 7 times.

Flamestrike is straightforward and not controversial. If the targets are adds that will die within, say, the next 3-4 seconds, use it. If you have long lived targets use pyro in most cases unless they are ~8 or more. The concept is very clear and there is no contest. There is some lack of clarity on what exactly starts making the one better than the other but it's not controversial at all. It's just that people don't have the time to run all those different simulations. If you want to research it very deeply it's relatively easy. You have to fiddle with the simc script and add on it targets that are short-lived with certain attributes, and a certain number of them (there is a command).

[MrInvayne]

My intent was to provide empirical information based on high level experience. I've read all the guides also.

[BiggestNoob]

You mean the ones that theorycraft and test without assuming are the ones who don't know how ignite works? Right.

Whenever I see someone using flamestrike on packs that aren't 8+ their overall damage is less than half of mine.

I've done the math and I've done the damage, and I actually know how Ignite works. 99% of people posting around here continue this meme of "building a fat Ignite is the most important thing" because that was also another stupid meme started along with the 8+ or 10+ or 11+ or 20+ target Flamestrike floor. Everyone who repeats things like that is beyond stupid and has never actually bothered to sit down and test things.

We just had this issue a week ago when people were saying Aftershocks was absolutely terrible and that the FB trait was a DPS increase on AoE over it. The math shows that Aftershocks at EVERY SINGLE TARGET COUNT is better than FB in raw damage, but when your'e supposed to use FS (at 4+ targets) it's substantially better than the FB trait. Nobody had the brains to articulate why people don't take Aftershocks: we're doing mythic raids, not mythic+ dungeons, and priority target damage is generally more important. We almost never Flamestrike in raids, even if we Flamestrike constantly in mythic+ dungeons. So no, Aftershocks isn't terrible because it's small compared to the Flamestrike hit, it's just not a priority to pick up because it provides no extra damage on most mythic raid bosses.

Holding CDs is a DPS loss. You make your choice of talents not worth it at all. Your whole argument is worthless now. It's ironic you personally attack people with taunts like "you don't know how to play this game well" (completely off topic spam) but you fail to see the basic logic that if you don't use a CD it's a major DPS loss.

Not necessarily. When you use CDs is generally far more important than using them on CD.

I'm pretty sure Plastkin doesn't even know why Cinderstorm does slightly more damage compared to other talents on a sanitized extended sustained damage simulation (that has nothing to do with 5mans). The damage itself is only a part of it. The most important advantage is related to the pre-combustion window, combustions that he holds and doesn't use at all because somehow he believes that it's better to not use the most important CD of the spec at all if it means it will only be up for something "unimportant".

You clearly can't read.

For what it's worth, a mage that completed Mythic +15 VoW uses kindling and casted flamestrike 7 times.

And that situation isn't comparable to what most people are doing. It's Tyrannical, where you're going to get 2 Combustions on every boss. Tyrannical has a much higher boss uptime. If you read back a few pages where I mentioned why you might run Kindling in a mythic+, that was one of them. Outside of Tyrannical, you do LESS DPS ON BOSSES and kill them slower with Kindling, and you kill trash slower, which means it's nonsensical to run it. You guys don't seem to be able to read here. Your talent choices reflect what you're trying to do. If you're on a mythic raid boss and you're going to be cleaving frequent add spawns, you don't run Kindling. If you're aiming for priority target damage and can get extra Combustions, you run Kindling. If you're trying to burn Tyrannical bosses, and your trash DPS is fine to hit the timers, you run Kindling. For literally every other situation you're running Cinderstorm because it's significantly better.

Flamestrike is straightforward and not controversial. If the targets are adds that will die within, say, the next 3-4 seconds, use it. If you have long lived targets use pyro in most cases unless they are ~8 or more. The concept is very clear and there is no contest. There is some lack of clarity on what exactly starts making the one better than the other but it's not controversial at all. It's just that people don't have the time to run all those different simulations. If you want to research it very deeply it's relatively easy. You have to fiddle with the simc script and add on it targets that are short-lived with certain attributes, and a certain number of them (there is a command).

It's 4+ targets, even with the extra pyro damage from the weapon, and will drop to 3 when you have BFS+AS. FS is always better on 4 targets or more.

[MrInvayne]

See the 'and casted flamestrike 7 times' part. Maybe they never pull more than 3 mobs?

[Deleted]

See the 'and casted flamestrike 7 times' part. Maybe they never pull more than 3 mobs?

Don't bother. Up until now, he's only been able to provide assumptions, rage, attempts at offending random people and some more rage. No logs, though. That's asking too much.

It's hilarious, really ^^

[MrInvayne]

Yeah... One last comment, just because I'm trying to figure out what's optimal. Looking at parses of top logs, I'm seeing virtually no parses that are M+10 where the mage is not using kindling. And pryo is generally casted well over 10-15x more than flamestrike. Not too interested in lower level M+ roflstomp talents.

Plastkin, do you have any M+10 or higher logs of your own for comparison?

[BiggestNoob]

Yeah... One last comment, just because I'm trying to figure out what's optimal. Looking at parses of top logs, I'm seeing virtually no parses that are M+10 where the mage is not using kindling. And pryo is generally casted well over 10-15x more than flamestrike. Not too interested in lower level M+ roflstomp talents.

Plastkin, do you have any M+10 or higher logs of your own for comparison?

Tyrannical is a thing and you can do it faster on +10 with Cinderstorm if your group can handle the pulls. Most people aren't speed clearing +10 because they don't need to (you can fail the timer and still get your chest). And nobody is logging mythic+ clears, let alone shit that doesn't matter like slow 1-chest or failed +10s. The fastest and best clears are more indicative of what's optimal, and you're probably not going to find those by looking at logs, because who the fuck cares about logs in m+, especially when all we're doing is carry runs.

[sosaria]

Yeah... One last comment, just because I'm trying to figure out what's optimal. Looking at parses of top logs, I'm seeing virtually no parses that are M+10 where the mage is not using kindling. And pryo is generally casted well over 10-15x more than flamestrike. Not too interested in lower level M+ roflstomp talents.

Plastkin, do you have any M+10 or higher logs of your own for comparison?

Careful Plastkin, now they're -ONLY- interested in M+10.

And here I'm preparing to put up some logs on my mythic runs using the Flamestrike rotation to shut down the argument...

[nickseng]

Careful Plastkin, now they're -ONLY- interested in M+10.

And here I'm preparing to put up some logs on my mythic runs using the Flamestrike rotation to shut down the argument...

Please do.

I'm really interested to see this, since my rough calculations show that Flamestrike is not really worth casting. But I'm happy to admit my math is wrong if shown otherwise.

[sosaria]

I'll be using wowlogs tonight as well as taking screen shots at the end of a mythic run showing the difference between damage done for the entire run... as well as a few individual trash pulls AND all the bosses.

Talents will be Conflag, LB, Kindling

Will be using Flamestrike a lot on the trash.

As I'm not allowed to post links coz I'm a new forum member, visit ttt.altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2863

Replace ttt with www

I've posted a few sample logs from my mythic run tonight in DHT. Will do a few more mythics later after my raid tonight.

Note that the wowlog is only 10 minutes long; not the full run (I was messing around with wowlogs).

[Deleted]

I really want to understand how this plays out - having not spec'ed with Cinderstorm and still be top DPS in Trash and Boss fights i'm keen to see if i'm missing a trick and need to alter my game play.

[Deleted]

Please do.

I'm really interested to see this, since my rough calculations show that Flamestrike is not really worth casting. But I'm happy to admit my math is wrong if shown otherwise.

Exactly. And that's all we're asking; some logs to prove his point. His anecdotal evidence is about as useful as a hairdryer for someone with congenital hypotrichosis.

[mrgreenthump]

Exactly. And that's all we're asking; some logs to prove his point. His anecdotal evidence is about as useful as a hairdryer for someone with congenital hypotrichosis.

He already did post logs and some screenshots, but from what I can see it only proved.. one shouldn't use Flamestrike on trash unless a really high number of mobs.

Edit: brainfart

[Deleted]

He already did post logs and some screenshots, but from what I can see it only proved.. one shouldn't use Flamestrike on trash unless a really high number of mobs.

Edit: brainfart

So his logs and screenshots proved the opposite of what he claims?

Well, that settles is then.

[mrgreenthump]

So his logs and screenshots proved the opposite of what he claims?

Well, that settles is then.

Well, I might be wrong, so go take a look yourself and make your own conclusion

[Deleted]

Well, I might be wrong, so go take a look yourself and make your own conclusion

Those weren't his logs.

[sosaria]

Those weren't his logs.

Who's logs do you think it is then?

I'll be posting more later.

Essensia is my mage. Not sure if you're out of arguments so you're pulling the "it's not him" argument. It's hilarious.

You can clearly see Flamestrike is on the top for trash.

- - - Updated - - -

In fact you can even message me on Essencia#6220

- - - Updated - - -

Again, As I'm not allowed to post links coz I'm a new forum member, visit ttt.altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2863

Replace ttt with www Check the thread for my logs and screenshots. I'll be posting more there until I get permission to post links on this forum

- - - Updated - - -

Flamestrike is useless. Just focus your pyros on the toughest target, use combustion and RoP on cooldown and you'll be fine. When combustion is on cooldown, you use RoP anyway and treat your casts as if combustion was up. Ergo, cast PF, FB and PB without fireballs.

Flamestrike is not useless. Logs that I'm posting later will prove this.

I'm not even using combustion on trash

Seriously, I might even get a youtube vid up to show you guys how I'm doing it. *shakes head*

- - - Updated - - -

//imgur.com/a/u4b73

add https: in the front

[halvdansivertsen]

Hi, pretty new to mage and wow - so forgive if I am completely off base here.

Looking at that log. For example:
/reports/WxDMK12ZjH9pBRGd/#type=damage-done&fight=1&source=12

6 casts Flamestrike, 32 hits - avg 106k damage per hit (53% total crit)
10 casts pyoblast, 10 hits - avg 305k damage per hit (90% total crit)

Accounting for crit in Pyros favour here, we can assume flamestrike is a bit more than 1/3 of Pyro.

Lets again say that we have 3 targets. Hitting 1 flamestrike or 1 pyro will do same damage - will the pyro ignite be that much better, even accounting for ignite spread delay? What if we now do 4 targets? Will pyro ignite make up those ~106k? For me, it seems logical that flamestrike is about equal on 3 targets - and just get better and better than pyro for every extra enemy.

Could be reading or reasoning this completely wrong though. I'm not a very smart person

[sosaria]

Hey Halv,

The rotation is LB -> ROP -> PF -> FB - Flamestrike -> PF -> FB -> Flamestrike -> Dragonbreath then normal fireball + pyro rotation, and keep Living bomb off CD

If the trash is still alive after the above (3 or more), keep trying to get instant flamestrikes using PF and FB. Remember that the more targets are already ignited, the more PF's you can cast due to the artifact CD reduction. I will use FLAME ON sparingly due to the long cooldown.

The above rotation applies instant high dps, rather than having to wait for your fireball to crit for a pyro, and no need to wait for ignite to spread. You also don't waste precious ROP time. You also don't need to use combustion (important if you have a boss fight coming up)

Aim to save at least 2 PF and your FLAME ON for a boss fight so you can get away doing one round of flamestrike rotation on the last pack of trash before boss pull.