Will raid tuning improve in ToV and Nighthold?

[Krazzorx]

Regardless of the level you raid at, you've probably noticed how easy Emerald Nightmare is compared to what you normally do. They clearly messed up badly. (Imo caused by testing stuff at standardized ilvls not accounting for +30-40 ilvls on weapon as is case on live being a big culprit)

Will they have enough time to fix their tuning targets for Trial of Valor and Nighthold?

[Supercool]

There's no way to tune fixed difficulty content for our current RNG loot model. It really needs to go.

[Zogarth]

It does raise a question how the balancing works with all the WF, TF legendaries and all that crap. But if it is like in WoD then the next raid will be quite a bit harder than this one. But yeah, no clue how they can tune it properly with gear being so damn RNG.

[Nethlord]

It does raise a question how the balancing works with all the WF, TF legendaries and all that crap. But if it is like in WoD then the next raid will be quite a bit harder than this one. But yeah, no clue how they can tune it properly with gear being so damn RNG.

At best, i'd say tune to thresh-hold of gear, which of course will make content far too difficult, but they made this bed, now they sleep in it.

[Chickat]

I think some rng is good, but not this much. The legendaries should never have existed, and warforged shouldn't go up more then maybe 15 or 20 item levels.

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At best, i'd say tune to thresh-hold of gear, which of course will make content far too difficult, but they made this bed, now they sleep in it.

Tune in the middle. If nighthold mythic was tuned for people to have 860 item level for most of the bosses maybe make it 865 and 870 for the last 2. I think there is a middle ground, but its still going to screw someone over in the end.

[owbu]

I think its partly just because its the introductionary raid (Highmaul wasnt hard either) and partly because they didnt have much data on what kind of gear we would be wearing.
So I asume HoV will be on the level of the harder nightmare bosses and nighthold will be quite a bit harder again. Also probably better tuned since they have more data to work with now.

[Adramelch]

Honestly I think people kinda exaggerate in regards to how failed the tuning was. Xavius was the major culprit. If you exclude the last bosses, about the same amount of guilds were 6/7M in the first week of both Highmaul and EN. It's just that they failed horribly with the Xavius fight (in terms of both mechanics and tuning), while the Imp one was glorious.

[ThrowAwayForAReason]

Regardless of the level you raid at, you've probably noticed how easy Emerald Nightmare is compared to what you normally do. They clearly messed up badly. (Imo caused by testing stuff at standardized ilvls not accounting for +30-40 ilvls on weapon as is case on live being a big culprit)

Will they have enough time to fix their tuning targets for Trial of Valor and Nighthold?

Easy? Maybe not for everyone

My guild can't even kill a boss in heroic.

[Dilbon]

I've only done normal but the difficulty of that was perfect. The idea of spending weeks to clear it is just stupid.

[Demeia]

Honestly I think people kinda exaggerate in regards to how failed the tuning was. Xavius was the major culprit. If you exclude the last bosses, about the same amount of guilds were 6/7M in the first week of both Highmaul and EN. It's just that they failed horribly with the Xavius fight (in terms of both mechanics and tuning), while the Imp one was glorious.

My suspicion is that they are simply not interested in *!#$block fights to the majority of guilds the way they were in WoD. They are not trying to make less content less longer; they are trying to add new content faster.

So I don't think a tuning mistake was made, I think this is the new model. World First go down fast, mid-range Mythic guilds beat the last boss faster, heroic guilds clear earlier as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the last boss of the 1st tier was more challenging but I wouldn't count on a five-stage fight.

[Krazzorx]

I mean my guild is good but not great, 3/7 mythic atm and while I think we're better we did only kill mythic archi in January, 7 months after release. And it feels like we're flying through it.

And I know there lots of comments week 1 of normal/heroic of "uh, something feels off this is too easy".

[FobManX]

The first raid is typically pretty easy, especially one with no tier that is kinda short like EN is. We'll see how Nighthold turns out.

[Alvito]

When you give people 3 weeks to prep for a raid and several ways to rapidly gear up things are going to be easy. Plenty of raids went into heroic EN with an item level even or close to even of the loot dropped in there. So if and when people out gear content it is going to be simple to do. What is really sad are the guilds with an average item level in the 845 to 860 range still stuck in normal or just starting to do heroic. People aren't going to continue to spend the time and effort in raids when they rewards are less then other sources.

[Tanthoris]

I think that at least for the mythic race blizz highly underestimated just how far the guilds would go with farming the mythic + 5mans in order to get gear that's on par with the gear that drops from the raid. Not to mention like others have said before it is the first raid, it's normally easy. The real race will be the nighthold imo

[Deleted]

My suspicion is that they are simply not interested in *!#$block fights to the majority of guilds the way they were in WoD. They are not trying to make less content less longer; they are trying to add new content faster.
So I don't think a tuning mistake was made, I think this is the new model. World First go down fast, mid-range Mythic guilds beat the last boss faster, heroic guilds clear earlier as well.
I wouldn't be surprised if the last boss of the 1st tier was more challenging but I wouldn't count on a five-stage fight.

Adding new content faster when a large amount of the creative people working on wow recently left Blizzard/WoW Development is probably fantasy. From new content perspective, the Trial of Valor raid is the biggest asset reuse in WoW's history -reusing Halls of Valor, Stormheim and Hellheim as locations and the models of Odyn,Heimdall, Hyrja,Guarm and Helya(and even their abilities, hell half of Helya's fight is the Maw of Souls ship trash).

On topic. I think Halls of Valor will just get released to get killed - it has 3 bosses and people will have 2 legendaries(of choice) +885+ ilvl before tackling it(not to mention 920 weapons).The raid drops 885 to begin with on mythic, so its outgeared from the start .
Nighthold can hold much better if they begin with heroic at ilvl 900(currently begins at 885) or if they make rewards scale a la HFC(first bosses dropping 20 less ilvl than last boss). During Beta they never had legendaries enabled for testing, and they averaged ilvls(so far lower wep ilvl than people will have), and without major changes I can't see the raid last long(inc panic +50% hp/dmg buff to the last 2 bosses if 8 bosses die in 6 hours like in SoO)

[Farabee]

There's a whole new raid coming out in 2 months, and a new mini-raid in likely 2-3 weeks. Did you really want to be stuck progressing through this content when the new stuff comes out?

It's the first raid of the expansion. It's tuned well for that.

From new content perspective, the Trial of Valor raid is the biggest asset reuse in WoW's history -reusing Halls of Valor, Stormheim and Hellheim as locations and the models of Odyn,Heimdall, Hyrja,Guarm and Helya(and even their abilities, hell half of Helya's fight is the Maw of Souls ship trash).

Not every raid and instance has to have new graphic content. Game of Thrones has reused the same locations for several seasons so it must be a shit show, right?

As far as the fight designs, as long as there's a few new twists for the raid I'm also cool with it. It's not supposed to be groundbreaking, it exits to bridge the gap between raids and finish off the zone story. I like the idea that the designers are finally wrapping up plot threads in the game, instead of "Neptulon kidnapped by Ozumat and gone for 6 years." We get to actually finish up the story and kill the squid bitch, which makes me happy.

[Krazzorx]

Well, Nighthold is early next year, i suspect January, still more than 2 months regardless.

While there is something to be said for it let's people clear on time, I don't recall even Highmaul being this easy. Don't think a ton got Imperator down.

Also, just because some find normal/heroic EN hard still doesn't mean those difficulties are at the right tuning either. No matter the tuning you're going to find someone who finds normal too hard and someone who finds mythic too easy. it's just this time I certainly get the vibe that most are leaning to it being easier than expected.

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And yes I really like ToV is coming to give a finale to Stormheim's cliffhanger. They badly needed those in previous xpacs.

[Slure]

Why do people just whine and bitch all the time about wow its an entry level raid shut the fuck up

[Jotaux]

How do you improve upon perfection?

[Jastall]

Normal and Heroic seemed to be tuned well enough for an entry raid. Normal was pretty easy, but it's meant for more casual raiders. Heroic requires mechanics and awareness, but wasn't as comparatively balls-bursting as some of the Heroic fights in HFC.

Mythic was probably too easy given the clear rate a week after its launch, but Blizzard now has the data on how Legion's gearing systems impact the progression race. So hopefully they make Helya and Gul'Dan go to the gym.