Question about moonwells

[ravenmoon]

Dunno I have never seen what you said. The different groups of night elves went different ways because they had different philosophy and guidance.

it's in WotA, the last book of the trilogy at the end. The different groups of night elves were separated..they never met after the sundering. The Shen'dralar highborne stayed in their city closed doors - it had no barrier, but the night elven survivors of Hyjal, never wandered further from Stonetalon mountain,keeping the forest of Ashenvale clear of everyone but those allowed there in order to keep the well of eternity secret from any would be mage, race, which had to include satyrs. They were in isolation because they stayed to that part of the continent and never moved from there. Wonder why the druids are so surprised and pleased of Malfurion's visit, they haven't seen him since the sundering days or close to it - (my suspicion is his last visit to Val'sharah was to solve the Worgen problem)

The Suramar night elves we know they erected a barrier and were hidden in the city. The night elves are not even aware of humans and orcs, nor of what happened to the Quel'dorei - when they meet the high elves who they think are what became of all the Quel'dorei, only to disover the Shen'dralar after the 3rd war, and now the nightborne.

Ofc the other night elven groups had no Malfurion hence no druidism, they didn't learn that or pick that up , and no High Priestess either so Moon worship probably faded in their societies a bit. Either the Eldre'thalas group or the Suramar group could have told the night elves Darth'remar was right, and I think they would have been more open to listen to Elisande back then if they had discovered she and the highborne actually saved the city after they rebelled against Azshara, - unlike Darth'remar's group, Elisande and the highborne in Suramar were not complicity in Azshara's portal summoning of demons - the Zin'Azshari highborne, including Darth'remar were, until he rebelled. We also know that Eldre'thalas fought the legion, but they took their sweet time to do it, waiting until the last moment. Goldrinn dies at their gates helping in the defence of that city according to lore. Nar'thalas and Farondis were the first to rebel, and look what Azshara did to them. The only other group of highborne we know that rebelled were the ones at Menaar academy.

Remember however, it was the Hyjal group that had lost everything - unaware both Eldre'thalas and Suramar survived, it was they that had to start from scratch and would have been in most shock and trauma and the massive change, they had to face the new world, while those in Eldre'thalas and Suramar were locked in the cities, they had the shattered spirits that needed grace.

[Wildmoon]

There's no power of "hope and dream" in literal sense from blessing Ysera. There's none in WotA. There's none in the chronicle. The blessing was for the druids. I don't know how you interpret it to come to that conclusion.

It was not the blessings that gave them back their will. It was their new found way of life. They did not need the blessings.

[ravenmoon]

isn't the moon magic of the Druids of the Moon a form of arcane?

it is. The damage is arcane. Which is why I suspect, it was large scale arcane usage that was banned, specifically using the Well - because this would be the thing they thought would definitely call the legion back.

Look at it from a night elf perspective, you're use to using spells of incredible power and doing incredible feats, that dwarf the stuff we do today, they're not worried about a small fireball or moonfire aided by the goddess no less as having the potential to draw the legion.. it would be using the well to do the big stuff, that sort of small scale spell casting a single mage does without the well would be inconsequential, we're talking about the big stuff

Have you done the Illidan flashback to the demon invasion of Black Rook hold? Look at the power and potency of the spells he is employing - now that's a much higher level than arcane blast. I am thinking that without the use of the Well of Eternity, the type of magocracy they were use to, would mean nothing, you can imagine a stuffy night elf mage, especially the highborne amongst them, considering the small stuff as "you can't expect me to work like this, you're giving me stone tools back to the cave ages" - like a scientist or engineer without electricity from a generator to power the devices, industry tools etc - soon all that high stuff would be undoable, what they considered a mage would cease to exist

what we consider a mage now, would be a laughing matter to them - and is reflected when you speak to the Darnassian highborne who tell you the magic of this age pales in comparison - Estulan is depressed and reclusive in his tower as he aims to restore Eldre'thalas - why are the night elves so reclusive .. because they've lost so much !!

When you look at what they achieved in Suramar, and the scope of the things they were doing, and how beautiful and unbroken the world was which they remember most of them being 10k years, how can you help but not be reclusive with a sadness and sombreness to you, filled with the sorrow of the memories before, it would be unbearable - except for Ysera's gift - at least the highborne of Eldre'thalas had the city they had locked themselves in like a fantasy film/game/book - oblivious to the mess outside them, and not needing to consider it having all their power met by their demon source.

Similarly with the Suramar night elves, except for they had a better excuse, cos they thought the whole world was lost and over run, but they continued in the night elven ways with their new situation, life just continued as normal, except now only restricted to the city, fear of losing it certianly would have kept them in line. No reckless magical usage like happened in a Azshara's day, no going out of line, one misstep could spell doom, so they were very disciplined, unlike the Eldre'thalas lot - they had to use magic more to survive. But they didn't have to face the horrors of the sundering either. The Highborne's time of testing came eventually when Dire Maul fell to ruin, and we get some uncorrupted ones amongst them proving true, the nightborne testing has now come with this whole situation with the legion and facing the withering - they find horrors returned, some have chosen to put their trust in the very horror bringers so as to keep their comforts and titles, others remember who they are, and now know they must face the music that they will soon discover, their ancient brothers who left the city to save the world also endured.

It's one of the much better stories, and racial plights in wow, it's really drawn me.

[Shiftyfish]

-snip-

It's not that I dislike Night elves in any way it's just that I see this matter differently. I don't deny the Nightborne have Night elven roots, the blood elves do as well. It's just when I see words like "Transforming them into a new race" I see that as an important distinction. they became something else, they are no longer what they once were. that doesn't sever their Night elven roots or heritage but they have become something more. It's the same way I view the High/blood Elves their story took them away from Kalimdor and in that journey they became what we now know them to be. Night elven origins but no longer Night elves. and also how I see Night elves from sharing origins with the Trolls. but their unique circumstances have brought them to where they are now as well.

[Mace]

There's no power of "hope and dream" in literal sense from blessing Ysera. There's none in WotA. There's none in the chronicle. The blessing was for the druids. I don't know how you interpret it to come to that conclusion.

It was not the blessings that gave them back their will. It was their new found way of life. They did not need the blessings.

Here you go

Excerpt from War of the Ancients Trilogy:
Chapter 22
Page 577

“Would that it was only that,” Malfurion replied morosely. Illidan continued to be in his thoughts. He already had
some suggestions as to what to do about his twin and it pained the druid to imagine them being put into action. Yet,
Illidan clearly could not longer be trusted. He had slain others out of madness. His notion that the night elves
needed a new Well in order to protect themselves against some possible future attack by the Burning Legion was
not sufficient reason for his heinous crimes.

Although still creatures of the dark despite having been forced to adapt to daylight battles, Jarod had agreed with
the dragons to assemble at noontime. Alexstrasza explained that the sun’s zenith would be essential to what they
planned and the night elf was not about to argue with the giants.

Despite the island’s reasonable size, only tall grass covered it. At its center, the group positioned itself as requested
by Alexstrasza. The dragons took up a prime location near what they said was the exact middle, leaving a small
place open between them.

The Aspect of Life began the ceremony. “Kalimdor has suffered greatly,” she rumbled. As those in the group
nodded, Alexstrasza continued, “And the night elves most of all. Your race was not completely innocent in all of
this, but the trials and tribulations through which you have passed forgive that.”

There were a few uneasy glances toward the Highborne, but no one argued.

The red dragon lowered her palm. In it, nestled like an infant, a single seed similar in appearance to an acorn rested.
Malfurion felt a tingle as he stared at it.

“Taken from G’Hanir, the Mother Tree,” she explained. The druid recognized the home of the dead demigoddess,
Aviana.

“G’Hanir is no more, having perished with its mistress, but this seed survives. From it, we shall raise a new tree.”
Nozdormu dropped one paw to the ground and, with a single swipe, created a hole perfect for planting the seed,
Alexstrasza gently placed the seed in it, then Ysera pushed the dirt over the hole.

The Aspect of Life gazed up at the sun. Then, she and the other two dragons bent their heads low over the buried
seed.

“I give Strength and Healthy Life to the night elves, for so long as the tree stands,” Alexstrasza proclaimed.
From her, a soft, red glow flowed to the mound. At the same time, the sunlight over the mound intensified,
spreading all the way across the lake in every direction. Some of the night elves stirred, but all remained silent.
A wonderful warmth spread over Malfurion and he instinctively took Tyrande’s hand. She did not pull away, but
rather tightened her grip.

And from the mound, there came movement. As if a tiny creature burrowed to the surface, the dirt pushed up and
away.

From the seed had sprouted a tiny sapling.

It rose until a yard high, small branches sprouting. Lush, green leaves burst from the branches, creating a delicate
canopy.

As Alexstrasza pulled back slightly, Nozdormu spoke, a slight hiss in his voice. “Time will be on the night elvesss’
side once again, for I grant them continued Immortality, forever a chance to learn, for asss long asss the tree
stands…”

From him issued forth a golden bronze aura that joined with the sunlight as the red had. Flowing through the
sapling, it sank into the mound.

The tree grew again. As the onlookers gaped, it rose to more than twice the height of a night elf. Its foliage grew
dense, green, and full of promise. Branches thickened, showing the health and strength of the tree. The roots began
to come up above ground like many legs. A space almost large enough for several seated night elves formed
underneath.

Nozdormu nodded, then, like his counterpart, withdrew. There remained only Ysera.
Eyes lidded, the green leviathan studied the tree. Despite its swift growth, it was still dwarfed by the dragons.
“To the night elves, who have lost their hopes, I give forth the ability to Dream again. To Dream, to Imagine, for in
that is the best hope of rebuilding, of recovering, of growing…” She looked ready to do as the other Aspects had,
then paused. Her head swung toward Malfurion. “And to those who follow the path of one held special by me—and
mine—I grant him and the other druids to come the path into the Emerald Dream, where, even in their deepest
sleep, they may cross the world, learn from it, and draw upon its own strength…the better to guide Kalimdor’s
health and safety throughout the future.”

The last bit just above:

Nozdormu nodded, then, like his counterpart, withdrew. There remained only Ysera.
Eyes lidded, the green leviathan studied the tree. Despite its swift growth, it was still dwarfed by the dragons.
“To the night elves, who have lost their hopes, I give forth the ability to Dream again. To Dream, to Imagine, for in
that is the best hope of rebuilding, of recovering, of growing…” She looked ready to do as the other Aspects had,
then paused. Her head swung toward Malfurion. “And to those who follow the path of one held special by me—and
mine—I grant him and the other druids to come the path into the Emerald Dream, where, even in their deepest
sleep, they may cross the world, learn from it, and draw upon its own strength…the better to guide Kalimdor’s
health and safety throughout the future.”

[ravenmoon]

There's no power of "hope and dream" in literal sense from blessing Ysera. There's none in WotA. There's none in the chronicle. The blessing was for the druids. I don't know how you interpret it to come to that conclusion.

It was not the blessings that gave them back their will. It was their new found way of life. They did not need the blessings.

fine, i'll find the quote for you.

- - - Updated - - -

Here you go


Nozdormu nodded, then, like his counterpart, withdrew. There remained only Ysera.
Eyes lidded, the green leviathan studied the tree. Despite its swift growth, it was still dwarfed by the dragons.
“To the night elves, who have lost their hopes, I give forth the ability to Dream again. To Dream, to Imagine, for in
that is the best hope of rebuilding, of recovering, of growing…” She looked ready to do as the other Aspects had,
then paused. Her head swung toward Malfurion. “And to those who follow the path of one held special by me—and
mine—I grant him and the other druids to come the path into the Emerald Dream, where, even in their deepest
sleep, they may cross the world, learn from it, and draw upon its own strength…the better to guide Kalimdor’s
health and safety throughout the future.

The last bit just above:

Oh dude, thank you!! There you go wildmoon
@Wildmoon I may not be as good as Aquamonkey or Mace at finding Blizzard references or illustrations to make a point, but I tend to avoid making up stuff about night elves, I've spent a lot of time looking closely at them, following their conversations, lore, as much as i could find where I could, after the whole troll origin affair, I really purposed that I would view the night elves as they were shown, everything I report to you I've seen or heard it from source somewhere. I don't always find the source straightaway when asked, but it's there or a rational derivative from one. When it is my interpretation of the source, I say it as much and I always try to explain my thinking process, hence why the essays - only refraining when people are rude to me about it, but otherwise trying.

If this hadn't been presented you'd probably think I was making it all up, like the guy the other time that thought I was making it up that Moonwells were arcane sources as I was explaining that the night elves have been suffused by the arcane all the time, and trying to make the distinction between being suffused and using for spells.

but there you go.

Just a comment on your earlier statement, I was talking about the will to go on, that hope brings people in general, not limited to the night elves, and the power of spirit, not in just a wow context but in an RL concept. This is what the book is meaning to say it gave the night elves. I don't know what your experiences in life are, but if you've gone through a life changing tragedy or near death experience , on the brink, or being in an utterly hopeless situation, you begin to understand the power of hope, the power hope brings, dreaming again, imagining again, that goes far beyond what you may have given it credit for previously. So I understood finally the importance of Ysera's gift - hence my comment that the slump in the night elves during wow may have been attributed in part to this loss. Since that time and the 3rd war i'm sure they have found other reasons to live, however after all their setbacks without the buffer any longer, the despair and a measure of hopelessness may have grown. One which i feel progressive good news like first Malfurion's return, then the return of magic, then the return of Suramar, then the healing of arcane addiction/hunger, then the return and vindication of Illidan with all the explanations he brings, should really help recover their spirits as Mace was describing and hopefully see them do more stuff.

Or maybe i'm reading way too much into it.

[Cl4nK]

Just a comment on your earlier statement, I was talking about the will to go on, that hope brings people in general, not limited to the night elves, and the power of spirit, not in just a wow context but in an RL concept. This is what the book is meaning to say it gave the night elves. I don't know what your experiences in life are, but if you've gone through a life changing tragedy or near death experience , on the brink, or being in an utterly hopeless situation, you begin to understand the power of hope, the power hope brings, dreaming again, imagining again, that goes far beyond what you may have given it credit for previously. So I understood finally the importance of Ysera's gift - hence my comment that the slump in the night elves during wow may have been attributed in part to this loss. Since that time and the 3rd war i'm sure they have found other reasons to live, however after all their setbacks without the buffer any longer, the despair and a measure of hopelessness may have grown. One which i feel progressive good news like first Malfurion's return, then the return of magic, then the return of Suramar, then the healing of arcane addiction/hunger, then the return and vindication of Illidan with all the explanations he brings, should really help recover their spirits as Mace was describing and hopefully see them do more stuff.

Or maybe i'm reading way too much into it.

You're 100% reading too much into this. You're talking about the same people who had the brilliant idea of making Rhonin control a raptor army and the same people who make guaranteed "go dig your hands in poop" quest.

[Wildmoon]

That literal power that was given was the tie to ED not the literal power of "hope and dream".... Ysera was just being poetic and nice. The chronicle further confirmed this.

[ravenmoon]

It's not that I dislike Night elves in any way it's just that I see this matter differently. I don't deny the Nightborne have Night elven roots, the blood elves do as well. It's just when I see words like "Transforming them into a new race" I see that as an important distinction. they became something else, they are no longer what they once were. that doesn't sever their Night elven roots or heritage but they have become something more. It's the same way I view the High/blood Elves their story took them away from Kalimdor and in that journey they became what we now know them to be. Night elven origins but no longer Night elves. and also how I see Night elves from sharing origins with the Trolls. but their unique circumstances have brought them to where they are now as well.

Let me explain my thoughts further. I don't feel blizzard is trying to make them non-night elven, the whole presentation backs that up, I think they want them distinct from the druidic culture, i.e. a new group, sub-race kind like you had the Zandalari to the trolls, or the mecha-gnomes to the gnomes, or the Broken to the Draenei, but not that totally different, it isn't a new race of humanoids.

I'm not saying it isn't new group of elves, but i think some of us have over-stressed the importance of it. For example, sometimes i will call a blood elf an elf - doesn't mean he is not also a humanoid and a blood elf. I could call a night elf a humanoid, doesn't mean he is also not an elf and a night elf too.

When using terms they don't always go nightborne night elf - but rather just simply nightborne or elf. You don't have to state it's a new race of night elves for us to think so, or even a new race of elves. New race is enough the context provides the rest.

It's new because we've never met it before, but as it is unveiled and explained, we see it's actually not separately new, but new elven and new night elven , but very much linked to the night elves.

What word other than transformation would you have used? Remember blizzard wouldn't necessarily agonize over what term to use, just the one that fit the most, and the night elves were transformed, but in the Suramar video, Thalyssra uses the word changed. In another place the word evolution is used. They are not been used in the strictest term, they just want to convey to you that the night elves have changed to a more arcane "cooler" version of night elf - give you a deeper or cooler version of the night elf fantasy, a more caster based one to go with the amazing rich city they painted.

It's natural to liken it onto the blood/high elves, but it's important to note while it is a change similar to that, it's not a change away from night elven. There are very key distinctions between what happened with the high elves and the nightborne. Most important of all was that they dropped the night culture - and they started a new version of the arcane culture the night elves use to practice - unlike suramar that continues on, the high elves build something new. This is fine. Some people view the high elves as a night elf off shoot/sub-race -- they are.

They have just been made very distinct with a lore and set that is larger than the night elves' own - look at all the high/blood elf lore, detail set, it's much larger than the night elf one even though the night elf spans longer in history. If you add the nightborne as night elf lore which it is, it still isn't quite the detail of the high/blood elf lore, but it has moved a lot closer.

I think mace put it quite nicely in the comparison to humans and worgen/forsaken or Zandalari/Drakkari & Amani. Blizzard could further develop them into a full playable race, but they'll still be a night elf based playable race, just like Worgen and forsaken are human based full playable races having their own sub-races and extensive lore, or they could be a sub-race of night elven like the drakkari and amani are troll sub-races - either case their still night elven - doesn't remove their candidacy for playability. A playable race , a full playable race blizzard can take from a new species (like they did when they introduced Tauren) or a sub-group like they did with worgen or frosaken). In fact nightborne and night elf are kind of like jungle and forest trolls, different but they are connected by the forest, while in the night case, it's the night and night elvenness that connects these two. Not the same, but related and based off each other. It's like Zan'dalari and the Gurubashi - Zan'dalari kept to the old ways but didn't change apperances, Gurubashi changed appearances and adopted a new forest lifestyle. Nightborne kept the old ways but their bodies changes (new race or sub-race), night elves changed to druidic ways but their bodies didn't change.

Hope that doesn't make things more confusing.


Yes they are a new race, and ofc they're not night elves, but they are night elven linked, based and related - more like the other wing of the night elves that have new bodies. It's not even a new culture, it's just a different culture, the old culture. Really it just seems two different races of the same group. And yes high elves are also, just that they've changed more, that's it and are developed separately without connection to the night elves. High elves do not live in the night, do not live in a night elf city, do not have night elven culture - nature or arcane - they have their own culture, they are light skinned not darkskinned like the other two, fair hair, sun themes, day, the Light - unlike the other two, silver, moon/star themes, the night, Elune -

whiles nightborne are different to night elves - they are more like another side of the night elf coin, whiles the high elves are more something different. I think people have a hard time with the nightborne perhaps being arcane or so good at it. Ask yourself the question if they had the night elf model, would you be saying the samething? No, and that's all that's changed with the nightborne of Suramar, their model, they are still night elven in all their ways, arcane pre-sundering night elven, just like the highborne of Eldre'thalas. I suspect they literally are a new skin for highborne, a new race for highborne - rather than have the highborne look like night elves, they've given them a distinct night elven look. It's still night based but it's different, allows them to develop them differently, without annoying peeople.

- - - Updated - - -

You're 100% reading too much into this. You're talking about the same people who had the brilliant idea of making Rhonin control a raptor army and the same people who make guaranteed "go dig your hands in poop" quest.

lol.. hey, we dig their lore, but remember also, different people write this, some may be very deep, some not quite, - explains the varying quality all round, sometimes it's really good, other times...

but yeah, i may be reading too much into it.

- - - Updated - - -

That literal power that was given was the tie to ED not the literal power of "hope and dream".... Ysera was just being poetic and nice. The chronicle further confirmed this.

Maybe, but I don't think, it also explains a lot though, why would her gift only have an effect on druids? and why would you not count having hope and dreaming again as a valuable asset when our very lives a driven by these very unseen things like hope and faith and love?

as mundane or shallow as he might be in other areas, he might be deep in this, beside this effect didn't come from knaak it came from Metzen. Still though, why not?

As I explained to you above, night elves it seems can still gain other sources of hope now, it's not a quanitfiable thing so i can't claim that it entirely was the reason for their survival, but you have to look at the narrative.. a vigil for 10k years - tha'ts a long, long time - to be so noble after such a great loss ? This does not mean it isn't part of their character, it is, but they needed this help, with that help, they could do this still impossible feat.

It was remarkable - which makes no sense why they're so rubbish now - exccept ofc if this is part of it, and Nordrassil losing it's power also cut this from them hence the struggle as compared to when we meet them in WC3.

Whether we interpret it as poetic or not, that's what the source says.

-- I do spend a lot of time thinking on this.

[Aquamonkey]

careful with semantics, they are a night elf sub-race. Not the night elves we play, but a different kind, a sub-race of them.
It doesn't specify elf or night elf. You and I infer that it is a new race of elf and night elf because of what we are shown in-game, through context, cinematics, the dialogue and experience we encounter them in etc. Why would we think they are elves or night elves if chronicles only states they are a new race? Because they are shown as still very much being nocturnal elves of the night elven arcane empire, in the night elven arcane culture, with dark skin tones, night elven themes all over and around, in a night elven city. it is both elven and night elven - and ofc, the very Suramar overview on the website the developer specifically tells you these are a new race that isn't actually a new race, but a very ancient one, the night elves of old.


Here he specifically calls them night elves.

If you're going to be fussy about semantics, don't call it "race" when the dev clearly wrote "group." They are a new race with the old elven culture.

[ravenmoon]

If you're going to be fussy about semantics, don't call it "race" when the dev clearly wrote "group." They are a new race with the old elven culture.

that indeed they are. My problem in other threads is with people trying to dissociate them from the night elven group they are certainly based on and still are connected too. - but I think it's precisely people being fussy about semantics that has started this. Some horde fans absolutely abhor the idea nightborne have anything to do with night elves, when the entire affair is a night elf based one in night elf lore - unless the night elf empire is no longer considered night elf lore ofc.

Blizzard may want to shift the focus of the night elf empire to a more original format from which 3 branches devolved, but the line is night elven - it's their fault for making the night elves alliance enitrely instead of just a portion of them or neutral from the start 0 but it's their game/lore. I see this as a second chance now to do neutral elves, and I'm liking the thought of it, so hopeing that with the nightborne they'll do that. But for some to think nightborne have nothing to do with night elves? If blizzard wanted that, why base them on the most iconic city your night elf group largely comes from? or make them a night civilzation the continuation of that original night elven empire culture.. why not do something different or new - or high/blood elf related?

Why bother to extend or expand night elf lore - why not just keep them in their boring state for the last 14 years, and keep expanding other groups but somehow when it comes to night elves, no, so that all of a sudden, shiny new group arriving has nothing to do with them rather than being another part of their story ]. why not make the same fuss bout the highborne who are exactly what the nightborne are culturally, except their city fell to ruins while this one stayed new and shiny, that's why. So blizzard did arcane night elf group properly this time made them a new race too, but based them entirely in night elf arcane lore, format, themes, etc and it's not night elven they say?

Forgive me my sarcasm, but the objections have unilaterally come from horde Belf lore fans, no one else. If the nightborne (or should I say when) become playable I am almost certain they'll be horde - but they'll be a night elf based group on the horde side. AFterall were not forsaken undead humans i.e. a human based group on the horde side, nothing new. We'll still have fun. The blood elves will have some company - although I expect them not to get along - more like rivals in the same pod, but we'll see.

[Mehrunes]

I may not be as good as Aquamonkey or Mace at finding Blizzard references or illustrations to make a point, but I tend to avoid making up stuff about night elves, I've spent a lot of time looking closely at them, following their conversations, lore, as much as i could find where I could, after the whole troll origin affair, I really purposed that I would view the night elves as they were shown, everything I report to you I've seen or heard it from source somewhere. I don't always find the source straightaway when asked, but it's there or a rational derivative from one. When it is my interpretation of the source, I say it as much and I always try to explain my thinking process, hence why the essays - only refraining when people are rude to me about it, but otherwise trying.

Still waiting on that source that's out there "somewhere" (or apparently a "rational derivative from one" that's totes legit has a rational explanation) of: night elven(n)ess, descriptive night elves, Night Elves and night elves meaning different things or nocturnal elves being used to describe anything other than Kaldorei.

careful with semantics, they are a night elf sub-race. Not the night elves we play, but a different kind, a sub-race of them.

Lets look in a little closer. Remember in chronicles they are described under the night elf section, not a new separate race category and in the text they are specifically stated as a new race in chronicles

Apparently being careful about semantics is using a term not used in Chronicles at all (sub-race) and using a piece of text saying they are a new race as proof of them not being a new separate race.

It doesn't specify elf or night elf. You and I infer that it is a new race of elf and night elf because of what we are shown in-game, through context, cinematics, the dialogue and experience we encounter them in etc. Why would we think they are elves or night elves if chronicles only states they are a new race? Because they are shown as still very much being nocturnal elves of the night elven arcane empire, in the night elven arcane culture, with dark skin tones, night elven themes all over and around, in a night elven city. it is both elven and night elven - and ofc, the very Suramar overview on the website the developer specifically tells you these are a new race that isn't actually a new race, but a very ancient one, the night elves of old.

The fact it doesn't specify if they are Elves or Night Elves and as such they are obviously Night Elves isn't logic. It didn't specify if they are reptiles or rocks either. Does this mean they are both? Or do we extend the freedom not to state the obvious to the writers? And what we're shown in game in regards to their "night elven(n)ess" is that their faction description calls them Nightborne Elves and not Nibghtborne Night Elves. Cinematics also show that them being changed by the Nightwell is still lore. Meanwhile no dialogue supports what you're claiming. Context and experience are unquantifiable, subjective, unclear and so imprecise they are nothing but buzzwords here. There's also no usage of "nocturnal elves" in relation to anything that isn't the actual Night Elves (and even then it's nocturnal humanoids, can't recall any usage of the term "nocturnal elf" itself). "Night Elves of old" can mean many things and despite of you conveniently ignoring it, that piece is still older than two in-game sources mirroring the Chronicles.

They are changed from the current night elf, but they haven't stopped been night elven at all, in fact they are even moreso. Their arcane addiction struggles parallel the blood elves because these struggles started with the highborne night elves, and is why the blood elves had a smaller measure of it. it was a night elf problem that the alliance night elves suppressed by not using the arcane but was still there in the nightborne night elves and the highborne.

They were Night Elves, changed into a different race as per Chronicles but somehow haven't stopped being Night Elves. #MaceLogic

They are not meant to be night elves you play, but they are meant to be night elven, same group, just a different race of them, a sub race. Whether it will end up being a sub-race like Dark irons are to dwarves or more like worgen are to humans (i.e. made a full playable race even though technically a sub-race) - really depends on how blizzard choose to go forward with them. Chances are they'll just leave them like all the other sub-race groups. But they might get lucky and become playable.

How can they technically be a sub-race if the only context Blizzard has ever used the term was gameplay related customization options? And how can Worgen be a sub-race of humans in this meaning if their state is nothing more than a curse and not one exclusive to humans?

If you're going to be fussy about semantics, don't call it "race" when the dev clearly wrote "group." They are a new race with the old elven culture.

But how can they try to force a narrative then?

that indeed they are. My problem in other threads is with people trying to dissociate them from the night elven group they are certainly based on and still are connected too. - but I think it's precisely people being fussy about semantics that has started this. Some horde fans absolutely abhor the idea nightborne have anything to do with night elves, when the entire affair is a night elf based one in night elf lore - unless the night elf empire is no longer considered night elf lore ofc.

You've been told in three different threads (at least), just today, that no one denied a link between Nightborne and Night Elves. How can you spread this lie still? Have you no shame? Are you a pathological liar and this is simply beyond your control? And just gotta lol at trying to shift the blame using semantics out of all things when this entire thing started with you trying to force the idea that Night Elves and night elves mean two different things in Warcraft over the span of few months, despite having no sources whatsoever and while maintaining that Night Elves refers to the Kaldorei while night elves means the wider descriptive nonsense despite races in Warcraft being written with lower case letters which would make it the other way around even if it was true (and it is not).

Blizzard may want to shift the focus of the night elf empire to a more original format from which 3 branches devolved, but the line is night elven - it's their fault for making the night elves alliance enitrely instead of just a portion of them or neutral from the start 0 but it's their game/lore. I see this as a second chance now to do neutral elves, and I'm liking the thought of it, so hopeing that with the nightborne they'll do that. But for some to think nightborne have nothing to do with night elves? If blizzard wanted that, why base them on the most iconic city your night elf group largely comes from? or make them a night civilzation the continuation of that original night elven empire culture.. why not do something different or new - or high/blood elf related?

Shen'dralar weren't Alliance between vanilla and Cata. Here goes your idea that Night Elves are entirely Alliance. There have been other non-Alliance groups since then, including renegade Druids of the Flame or Court of Farondis in this expansion. And yay, repeat of your lies. That's new and exciting. And please, do explain how Suramar is the most iconic Night Elf city. I've asked you for an explanation few times already, yet you still couldn't provide one. Maybe this time you'll stop squirming and actually address what is being asked of you.

Why bother to extend or expand night elf lore - why not just keep them in their boring state for the last 14 years, and keep expanding other groups but somehow when it comes to night elves, no, so that all of a sudden, shiny new group arriving has nothing to do with them rather than being another part of their story ]. why not make the same fuss bout the highborne who are exactly what the nightborne are culturally, except their city fell to ruins while this one stayed new and shiny, that's why. So blizzard did arcane night elf group properly this time made them a new race too, but based them entirely in night elf arcane lore, format, themes, etc and it's not night elven they say?

And this is you once again straw-manning the entire WoW lore. Just because you had a mental breakdown about Darnassian Elves recently and can no longer love them because they have wronged you with not being night enough doesn't mean Night Elves hanven't been developed throughout WoW. And why not make the same fuss about Shen'dralar? Because contrary to what you tried to conjure up with claiming that Cataclysm has shown that Night Elf means more than Darnassian Kaldorei, Shen'dralar have always been Night Elves and as such this isn't analogous in the slightest.

Forgive me my sarcasm, but the objections have unilaterally come from horde Belf lore fans, no one else. If the nightborne (or should I say when) become playable I am almost certain they'll be horde - but they'll be a night elf based group on the horde side. AFterall were not forsaken undead humans i.e. a human based group on the horde side, nothing new. We'll still have fun. The blood elves will have some company - although I expect them not to get along - more like rivals in the same pod, but we'll see.

Lo and behold, I'm a Forsaken fan, not Blood Elf fan. This straw-man still didn't ascend above straw either.

[Shiftyfish]

Yes they are a new race, and ofc they're not night elves

that right there was pretty much my entire sticking point is that it seemed like people were saying "they're just night elves" and it just seemed to ignore their story beneath the shield and their story development since that time since the nightwell changed them.

all in all though I can't wait to see where their story continues to take them, I've seen some bits of the 7.1 lore that is coming from them but not all of it yet. but I can see plausible reasons for them going any number of ways with their story.

will ally with our modern Night Elves? heavens know what we see in modern Night Elven culture is a far cry from the world they knew when the barrier went up but the old cultural roots still exist. on top of that we know they get along with the Night elves on some level (moonguard, Val'sharah refugees in Shal'Aran etc)

Do they become fast friends with the Blood Elves? shared love of the arcane, shared plight of dealing with the addiction, our newfound knowledge of the withered in Suramar would certainly be a boon in possibly helping any wretched (if any of those even still exist canonically today)

Do they bridge the gap and in some ways unite all of elven culture once again? or for all we know they could just be left to languish on the broken isles come the end of this xpac and be left out of lore going forward.

all fair game and possible, cannot wait to see how it goes.

[huth]

it is. The damage is arcane. Which is why I suspect, it was large scale arcane usage that was banned, specifically using the Well - because this would be the thing they thought would definitely call the legion back.

That's just a game mechanic, not anything to do with lore. Damage schools have nothing to do with magic schools.

[ravenmoon]

that right there was pretty much my entire sticking point is that it seemed like people were saying "they're just night elves" and it just seemed to ignore their story beneath the shield and their story development since that time since the nightwell changed them.

nah, that's just mehrunes intentionally mis-rerpresenting what I tried to explain to him in a thread a long time ago - and has been operating on the premise that I'm trying to say they're the same race.

YOu know when you say something, then someone twists in a reply to say something you didn't mean, and when you correct it, they just keep sticking to their mis-representation of what you said? Well this is what is going on here.

He took an explanation i was trying to give him to mean that i meant they were same, which they are not. But missed the context or simply refused to take it either to try and annoy me or be wanting to be a pain, who knows, so I just leave him to it these days.

- - - Updated - - -

Still waiting on that source that's out there "somewhere" (or apparently a "rational derivative from one" that's totes legit has a rational explanation) of: night elven(n)ess, descriptive night elves, Night Elves and night elves meaning different things or nocturnal elves being used to describe anything other than Kaldorei.




Apparently being careful about semantics is using a term not used in Chronicles at all (sub-race) and using a piece of text saying they are a new race as proof of them not being a new separate race.




The fact it doesn't specify if they are Elves or Night Elves and as such they are obviously Night Elves isn't logic. It didn't specify if they are reptiles or rocks either. Does this mean they are both? Or do we extend the freedom not to state the obvious to the writes? And what we're shown in game in regards to their "night elven(n)ess" is that their faction description calls them Nightborne Elves and not Nibghtborne Night Elves. Cinematics also show that them being changed by the Nightwell is still lore. No dialogue supports that. Context and experience are unquantifiable, subjective, unclear and so imprecise they are nothing but buzzwords here. There's also no usage of "nocturnal elves" in relation to anything that isn't the actual Night Elves (and even then it's nocturnal humanoids, can't recall any usage of the term "nocturnal elf" itself). "Night Elves of old" can mean many things and despite of you conveniently ignoring it, that piece is still older than two in-game sources mirroring the Chronicles.




They were Night Elves, changed into a different race as per Chronicles but somehow haven't stopped being Night Elves. #MaceLogic




How can they technically be a sub-race if the only context Blizzard has ever used the term was gameplay related customization options? And how can Worgen be a sub-race of humans in this meaning if their state is nothing more than a curse and not one exclusive to humans?




But how can they try to force a narrative then?




You've been told in three different threads (at least), just today, that no one denied a link between Nightborne and Night Elves. How can you spread this lie still? Have you no shame? Are you a pathological liar and this is simply beyond your control? And just gotta lol at trying to shift the blame using semantics out of all things when this entire thing started with you trying to force the idea that Night Elves and night elves mean two different things in Warcraft over the span of few months, despite having no sources whatsoever and while maintaining that Night Elves refers to the Kaldorei while night elves means the wider descriptive nonsense despite races in Warcraft being written with lower case letters which would make it the other way around even if it was true (and it is not).




Shen'dralar weren't Alliance between vanilla and Cata. Here goes your idea that Night Elves are entirely Alliance. There have been other non-Alliance groups since then, including renegade Druids of the Flame or Court of Farondis in this expansion. And yay, repeat of your lies. That's new and exciting. And please, do explain how Suramar is the most iconic Night Elf city. I've asked you for an explanation few times already, yet you still couldn't provide one. Maybe this time you'll stop squirming and actually address what is being asked of you.




And this is you once again straw-manning the entire WoW lore. Just because you had a mental breakdown about Darnassian Elves recently and can no longer love them because they have wronged you with not being night enough doesn't mean Night Elves hanven't been developed throughout WoW. And why not make the same fuss about Shen'dralar? Because contrary to what you tried to conjure up with claiming that Cataclysm has shown that Night Elf means more than Darnassian Kaldorei, Shen'dralar have always been Night Elves and as such this isn't analogous in the slightest.




Lo and behold, I'm a Forsaken fan, not Blood Elf fan. This straw-man still didn't ascend above straw either.

Here's what my aunt sent me, I found it really good.

By Regina Brett. 90 yes old.
To celebrate growing older, I once wrote few lessons life taught me. It is the most requeste column i've ever written.

1. Life isn't fair, but it's still good.
2. When in doubt, just take the next small step.
3. You job won't take care of you when you are sick. Your friends and family will.
4. You don't have to win every argument. Stay true to yourself.
5. Cry with someone. It's more healing than crying alone.
6. It's OK to get angry with God. He can take it.
7. Make peace with your past so it won't mess up the present.
8. Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
9. Take a deep breath every now and then. It calms the mind.
10. Get rid of anything that isn't useful. Clutter weighs you down in many ways.
11. Whatever doesn't kill you really does make you stronger.
12. It's never too late to be happy. But it's all up to you and no one else.
13. When it comes to going after what you love in life, don't take no for answer.
14. Burn the candles, use the nice sheets, wear the fancy clothes. Don't save it for a special occassion.
15. No one is in charge of your happiness but you.
16. Frame every so-called disaster with these words 'In five years, will this matter?'
17. Always choose life.
18. Forgive others and yourself
19. What other people think of you is none of your business.
20. Time heals al most everything. Give time a little time.
21. However good or gad a situation is, it will change.
222. Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else does.
23. Believe in miracles.
24l God loves you because of who God is, not because of anything you did or didn't do.
25. Don't audit life. Show up and make the most of it now.
26. Growing old beats the alternative of dying young.
27. Your children get only one childhood.
28. All that truly matters in the end is that you loved.
29. Get outside, every day. Miracles are waiting everywhere.
30. Envy is waste of time. Accept what you already have, not what you need.
31. The best is yet to come...
32. No matter how you feel, get up, dress up and show up.
33. Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift.

[Mehrunes]

nah, that's just mehrunes intentionally mis-rerpresenting what I tried to explain to him in a thread a long time ago - and has been operating on the premise that I'm trying to say they're the same race.

YOu know when you say something, then someone twists in a reply to say something you didn't mean, and when you correct it, they just keep sticking to their mis-representation of what you said? Well this is what is going on here.

He took an explanation i was trying to give him to mean that i meant they were same, which they are not. But missed the context or simply refused to take it either to try and annoy me or be wanting to be a pain, who knows, so I just leave him to it these days.

Yay, more lies. I'm leaning more and more towards pathological lying being the most likely option. I'm not misrepresenting anything. I know you haven't said they are the same race. You said they are night elves. And that the term night elves extends to more than the actual race of the Night Elves. Which has no basis whatsoever and is nothing more than your headcanon. Here, once again, I am aware of the context and the contest still makes your fanfiction idiotic and baseless. Although I had a change of heart. Do continue using this pathetic straw-man, you have my blessing. It's nice of you to discredit yourself, it saves me time.

[ravenmoon]

Yay, more lies. I'm leaning more and more towards pathological lying being the most likely option. I'm not misrepresenting anything. I know you haven't said they are the same race. You said they are night elves. And that the term night elves extends to more than the actual race of the Night Elves. Which has no basis whatsoever and is nothing more than your headcanon. Here, once again, I am aware of the context and the contest still makes your fanfiction idiotic and baseless. Do continue this pathetic straw-man though, it's nice of you to discredit yourself. Saves me time.

it's amazing how you argue about terms and meanings in order to validate your arguments in a fictional world that isn't precise nor has need to be about these terms you seem to think are being mis-appropriated.

Paolo, did you read the list I posted above? Wise words huh! I thought you'd find point 4 very helpful. Let me ask you something, is the quality of your life improving over this? Are you achieving something worthwhile for the effort or bother it is causing you?

Are you nominating yourself to be advocate of a fictional universe with fictional terms? Appointing yourself advocate, judge and jury concerning the law of night elves and the use of the two words. Is it approval you are looking for? If the context the texts and arguments given to you are not sufficient, why are you straining and stressing yourself and working yourself into such a bother over it? If you're not satisfied with the term used in the context it is used in and are only concerned with getting precedence from a fan (s) who use them in diverse ways you are not satisfied with and they won't retract - why keep on over it? Surely it's an impasse that is not worth the bother.

I really don't want you to burst a vessel. It's time to move on to perhaps more meaningful and relevant things?

[Wildmoon]

Maybe, but I don't think, it also explains a lot though, why would her gift only have an effect on druids? and why would you not count having hope and dreaming again as a valuable asset when our very lives a driven by these very unseen things like hope and faith and love?

as mundane or shallow as he might be in other areas, he might be deep in this, beside this effect didn't come from knaak it came from Metzen. Still though, why not?

As I explained to you above, night elves it seems can still gain other sources of hope now, it's not a quanitfiable thing so i can't claim that it entirely was the reason for their survival, but you have to look at the narrative.. a vigil for 10k years - tha'ts a long, long time - to be so noble after such a great loss ? This does not mean it isn't part of their character, it is, but they needed this help, with that help, they could do this still impossible feat.

It was remarkable - which makes no sense why they're so rubbish now - exccept ofc if this is part of it, and Nordrassil losing it's power also cut this from them hence the struggle as compared to when we meet them in WC3.

Whether we interpret it as poetic or not, that's what the source says.

-- I do spend a lot of time thinking on this.

First you don't know which parts from the trilogy are from Metzen and which parts are from Knaak. Second, I think it's your interpretation. The blessing I am talking about is the literal power that was bestowed upon the tree and the night elves by the aspects. The chronicle clearly states what blessings were given by what aspect. It does not say anything about the power of "hope and dream".

The source never said something about the literal power of hope and dream. You just read too much into it.

[Mehrunes]

it's amazing how you argue about terms and meanings in order to validate your arguments in a fictional world that isn't precise nor has need to be about these terms you seem to think are being mis-appropriated.

And yet here you are spreading headcanon about this fictional world for years now. How odd that "hurr durr, it's just make believe" becomes argument to you and Macemoon only when you get triggered and can't defend your bullshit nonsense.

Paolo, did you read the list I posted above? Wise words huh! I thought you'd find point 4 very helpful. Let me ask you something, is the quality of your life improving over this? Are you achieving something worthwhile for the effort or bother it is causing you?

If you consider writing an effort then I pity you even more than I already did.

Are you nominating yourself to be advocate of a fictional universe with fictional terms? Appointing yourself advocate, judge and jury concerning the law of night elves and the use of the two words. Is it approval you are looking for? If the context the texts and arguments given to you are not sufficient, why are you straining and stressing yourself and working yourself into such a bother over it? If you're not satisfied with the term used in the context it is used in and are only concerned with getting precedence from a fan (s) who use them in diverse ways you are not satisfied with and they won't retract - why keep on over it? Surely it's an impasse that is not worth the bother.

Yay for deflection. Obviously you have no sources of proof whatsoever so gotta try to dismiss the person rather than the argument. No, I'm not nominating myself as anything. That doesn't give even a shred of validity to your headcasecanon. And yay, thanks for indeed continuing the straw-man about me missing the context despite me just proving you wrong. As I said, nice of you to discredit yourself.

I really don't want you to burst a vessel. It's time to move on to perhaps more meaningful and relevant things?

Like posting fanfiction dogshit on forum dedicated to lore? No thanks.

[ravenmoon]

First you don't know which parts from the trilogy are from Metzen and which parts are from Knaak. Second, I think it's your interpretation. The blessing I am talking about is the literal power that was bestowed upon the tree and the night elves by the aspects. The chronicle clearly states what blessings were given by what aspect. It does not say anything about the power of "hope and dream".

The source never said something about the literal power of hope and dream. You just read too much into it.

True, I don't, but didn't the story of the Aspects and the blessing on the tree break out before the book was released? And I remember reading a while ago that Metzen goes through every detail with his writers, he did that with the RPG lore book - which is why many were surprised their canonicity was stripped, while at the same time it made sense to lose that restriction.

And as for the second part, I'm just going with the script, a canon source directly stated what the gift does and I can't help but take a source at its word and also take that this had an effect on the night elves by giving them hope and dreaming again. Now you may disagree with the extent to which the hope, dreaming (raising of spirits) from this gift had on them, but a source is directly telling us that this is what the gift did.

And do you think because Chronicles doesn't mention it means that it isn't valid? Chronicles doesn't mention every detail of lore, as it's a brief summary of the lore. I wouldn't discount a canon source as irrelevant or not worth consideration because Chronicles doesn't give the detail. But I see what you mean. However, you have to admit the story does makes sense when you take the source to mean what it says - besides hope is a real thing and is powerful to keep people going through the darkest times - although some people don't really believe in it as real because it's doesn't have substance similar to faith and love, that doesn't stop it from being so here where magic and dragons and gods, extra dimensions, alternate universes and timelines and other far less concrete things are all part and parcel of it. In wow immaterial things have substance and often a damage number associated with them - looked at the warlock spell list or the priest? r all real in a fantasy setting but hope having substantial and experiential effects is far reaching? It shouldn't be .

- - - Updated - - -

If you consider writing an effort then I pity you even more than I already did.

You didn't read it? It's good advice.