Is dalaran a better city now Jaina's gone?

[Deleted]

Considering he was a rabid racist, who had no love for anything other than humanity and turned on allies he did not like, the moment he could afford it. Now put that in relation, with an undead elf and the fact that Garithos had lost many troops to undead before. There is no way in hell he would have let them be, Sylvanas was quite foolish in one regard though, she should have ordered Varimathras to kill him, then call his men telling them the dreadlord turned on them, having him killed too, taking control of Garithos's forces.

Or that is the way I would have done it.

Still, she betrayed him while he didn't do anything wrong towards Sylvanas and her people. We will never know if he would have betrayed her. Right now, you can't deny that Sylvanas started aggressions towards humanity, not the other way arround. There was never a moment were Sylvanas tried to establish peace with the Humans. Thrall, by inviting the Forsaken into the Horde and never controlling her people and Jaina, by supporting the Alliance war against the Horde, did a shitty job, but at least they tried.

yes, jaina hate horde (cant blame her). dalaran is supposed to be neutral. a neutral faction/city cant have a leader who hate half its members/citizens.

That Dalaran should be neutral is shit to begin with. It was a Human Kingdom of the Alliance. And it sucks always having Alliance stuff turned neutral.

[Traveler Voltin]

yes, jaina hate horde (cant blame her). dalaran is supposed to be neutral. a neutral faction/city cant have a leader who hate half its members/citizens.

after Warcrimes. Jaina is just crazy now. everything now is no longer justified.

[Deleted]

interesting to see real world problems be adopted in a game.


To have females in power is a problem for you? so you believe the city is better off without said female.


Sad but this is the realistic struggle of equality for women.

[Tyrion Moonblade]

Khadgar was the person who started the vote to allow the horde mages back into the Kirin Tor and allowed horde forces to enter Dalaran again. Khadgar is exactly the reason why the city is now this way

Jaina forbade organized horde forces from entering the city, not anyone who shares the same race. It makes zero sense that in the month or so Khadgar has taken over all of these fresh "dalaran citizens" have made a home for themselves in a city which IS ON THE FRONT LINE OF THE WAR AGAINST THE LEGION.

No she definitely is crazy in how she defines her betrayal. Forces under the command of Garrosh used the neutral sanctity of Dalaran in order to sneak into the portals to Darnassus. Jaina didn't simply kick the horde out of Dalaran, she IMPRISONED ALL OF THE SUNREAVERS. The blood elf people and, even more specifically, the Sunreavers had nothing to do with what Garrosh wanted to do. Most of the horde was already against Garrosh but they were not yet unified and were afraid that they would be thrown from the horde for their betrayal for not complying. Aethas Sunreaver almost stopped the orcs before realizing what a disaster it could be for his people if Garrosh deemed the blood elves as traitors.

The Sunreavers were arguably complicit, but inarguably the avenue taken. It might not be nice, but it is by no means "crazy" to imprison the members of a political faction which is the reason Dalaran's neutrality was violated until things work out. The LENGTH of the imprisonment is overmuch, in my opinion. They should have been repatriated to Silvermoon much sooner. But the asinine notion that she's crazy, or a dreadlord, or an instant sekrit bigot (a favorite of the tumblr-esque defenders of the horde) is just that.

Also, a fact that most people are keen to forget, YOU are technically a Sunreaver agent. You are representative of them in Dalaran being Horde agents within it's walls. YOU also worked for Garrosh to perform the infiltration of Darnassus, collaborating with another Sunreaver agent to do so. Under duress or not, it was still done. Actions have consequences.

All of that said, the imprisonment was a short-sighted, incorrect decision, but it was neither unprovoked nor enough to instantly condemn her as a character/consign her to being a dreadlord/start crying for her to be a raid boss (unless you are a horde savage looking for reasons to kill alliance people, which is all too common).

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interesting to see real world problems be adopted in a game.


To have females in power is a problem for you? so you believe the city is better off without said female.


Sad but this is the realistic struggle of equality for women.

Oh SHUT THE UP. AZEROTH ISN'T THE REAL WORLD. THIS FORUM IS NOT TUMBLR. THERE ARE NO SHORTAGES OF FEMALES IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN THIS GAME.

[Deleted]

after Warcrimes. Jaina is just crazy now. everything now is no longer justified.

Oh yeah, hated a political faction that always commited genocides, conquests and other atrocities is crazy. A Faction that is so utterly evil, Blizz hat to pull the alternate timeline and prophecy card to justify their existence.

[Mehrunes]

Jaina forbade organized horde forces from entering the city, not anyone who shares the same race. It makes zero sense that in the month or so Khadgar has taken over all of these fresh "dalaran citizens" have made a home for themselves in a city which IS ON THE FRONT LINE OF THE WAR AGAINST THE LEGION.

Yes, it's totally weird that the faction that organizes the campaign against the Legion received contingents from the player factions. Forsaken were obviously a common occurrence under Jaina's rule.

The Sunreavers were arguably complicit, but inarguably the avenue taken. It might not be nice, but it is by no means "crazy" to imprison the members of a political faction which is the reason Dalaran's neutrality was violated until things work out.

Then why wasn't Jaina imprisoned?

Also, a fact that most people are keen to forget, YOU are technically a Sunreaver agent. You are representative of them in Dalaran being Horde agents within it's walls. YOU also worked for Garrosh to perform the infiltration of Darnassus, collaborating with another Sunreaver agent to do so. Under duress or not, it was still done. Actions have consequences.

Except if you're Jaina, even if you don't work under duress. Double standards in favor of Alliance are fun though, gotta give you that.

[Tyrion Moonblade]

That Dalaran should be neutral is shit to begin with. It was a Human Kingdom of the Alliance. And it sucks always having Alliance stuff turned neutral.

This. Especially that it is always Alliance that turn Neutral in order to share toys with the warmongering savages on the red team.

Horde that have turned neutral is basically the Earthen Ring, Vol'Jin and the Horde Rebels (temporarily)...... and I'm at a loss for anything else? Anyone?

[Deleted]

This. Especially that it is always Alliance that turn Neutral in order to share toys with the warmongering savages on the red team.

Horde that have turned neutral is basically the Earthen Ring, Vol'Jin and the Horde Rebels (temporarily)...... and I'm at a loss for anything else? Anyone?

Earthen Ring, which is the probably least important neutral faction in warcraft history. The Horde Rebels were Horde.

[Tyrion Moonblade]

Yes, it's totally weird that the faction that organizes the campaign against the Legion received contingents from the player factions. Forsaken were obviously a common occurrence under Jaina's rule.

They aren't contingents, they are citizens. As in residents. As in noncombatants. The "contingents" are the alliance and horde military forces ensconced in their own enclaves. While I haven't seen forsaken "Dalaran Citizen"s yet, I have seen Orcs, Blood Elves, and if I remember correctly a Tauren at the very least. Horde races were not barred, the political organization of the Horde was. I doubt the Kirin Tor would have even gone along with a blanket ban based upon race, given how the council voted once the Legion arrived.

Then why wasn't Jaina imprisoned?

Because she was the leader of the Kirin Tor and Dalaran during a time of war, and in particular this time of crisis which despite the endless protestations of horde apologists, was not of her making. Because one decision that doesn't weigh it's fairness in a time like that is not enough to consign a head of state to the klink. But please, keep on being ridiculous.

Except if you're Jaina, even if you don't work under duress. Double standards in favor of Alliance are fun though, gotta give you that.

Explain how exactly it's a double standard. In regards to what I am saying, not what you are thinking/inserting. Whatl I am saying is the decision, while a poor one, is no real reason to condemn the character completely, call for her death via raid boss, or make up nonsense about her being a dreadlord.

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Earthen Ring, which is the probably least important neutral faction in warcraft history. The Horde Rebels were Horde.

They were green to alliance for a time... I was reaching, honestly, to try and populate that list with SOMETHING besides the Earthen Ring.

[Zulkhan]

Because Blizzard has completely forgotten about him? Because some of the citizens of Theramore were outright mocking their Lord Admiral in Cycle of Hatred? Because his statue was removed from Stormwind? Because he and Kul Tiras have been non-existant since WC3?

Forgive me if I doubt that it has anything to do with any of these things, because I hardly see a society like the one of the orcs or most of the Horde in general giving a shit about what the Alliance reveres or not, as they're pretty much considered enemies most of the time anyway.

But apparently the Alliance should feel differently and be "offended". And not about the Horde's actions, mind you, but about architecture and nomenclature. I want to believe they have better things to do with their time.

Ensuring the survival of something that is already dead.. and makes more of the dead.. so they too can "survive". I see.

Don't worry, I know that you have decided already that undead don't deserve to exist because, by your universal values, such existence is inherently wrong.

Forsaken don't make more dead to survive, they turn either casualties of war or people already dead. Because, you know, they would have no need to "make more dead" to survive if no casualties would be made among them.

Holdings taken by force from others only recently

When you're surrounded by enemies, it's nothing strange that you'll make a move against them the moment you have the chance to do that. Besides, it's not like Orcs didn't conquer their lands by force, it's just that no one gives a shit about Quillboars, Harpies and their supposed "rights" on the land.

by betraying them after fighting alongside them

What can I say, I just can't blame Sylvanas for how she behaved with Garithos. He was a poor, unreasonable imbecile you just couldn't come to terms with. Taking him and his troops out of the picture was the best thing to do. The Scarlet Crusaders would have proved one huge nuisance enough later on, let alone the Scourge infesting Lordaeron.

killing them and eventually raising them.

Yep, Garithos and co. were raised by the Val'kyr Sylvanas acquired 7-8 years later. Logical as hell.

None of it is invented. The Forsaken were admitted out of two main reasons; sympathy and cure and these reasons are jointed together.

Nope. Again, it's your invention. Forsaken were admitted out of two reasons indeed: sympathy and the necessity of the Horde to gain a foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms.

The orcs sympathized with the Forsaken due to their condition, as they too have been victims of the Burning Legion.

It wasn't the condition, it was the circumstances. Thrall recognized the Forsaken's necessity to establish a home and ensure its safety, a plight Orcs, Tauren and Trolls shared.

Magatha spoke largely in favour of taking them in and helping them with the condition the orcs felt pity for.

The orcs didn't pity the Forsaken for their condition, just Thrall sympathized with their situation. And Magatha was just fulfilling an agenda.

The ones the orcs felt pity for are spreading exactly what the orcs felt pity over. Only Garrosh cared about this. The rest of the Horde is turning a blind eye to it.

So you carried forward an argument built on a bullshit premise, that the orcs felt "pity" over the Forsaken for being undead, which is not mentioned anywhere.

Garrosh didn't give a shit, he was just bigoted and, most importantly, didn't trust the Forsaken after the Wrath Gate incident nor he shown any slight form of respect or consideration towards them, as he had no qualms about exploiting most of them as cannon fodder, only to abandon them at the Alliance's mercy once the Forsaken's domain was weak and crippled.

The Tauren and Forsaken seeking a cure for undeath is canon, not "invented".

The talking about a cure is canon, the fact that it was one of the main reasons for why the Forsaken joined the Horde is invented bullshit. When Hamuul argued with Thrall about accepting the Forsaken, he only spoke about "redemption". Thrall sympathized with the Forsaken's situation, and ultimately was realized that the Forsaken would have guaranteed a valuable foothold in the Eastern Kingdoms for the Horde. That's it and all.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Compe...len_(original)

"The Earthen Ring had pure intentions towards our plagued brethren. But who is to know the motivations of those whispering in the ears of the Elder Council?

The Forsaken whom we have allied with have a history wrought with deceit. Too hasty was our pact. Perhaps Cairne would have been wise to heed the warnings from Orgrimmar."

Upon completion the tauren quest giver says "You have served the tauren of Thunder Bluff well, <name>. Your dedication shall not be forgotten."

Why would a book about the undeath "serve the tauren" if they are not seeking to cure the Forsaken?

So your first proof is you guess-working shit on something saying nothing about a cure to the undeath. Wonderful. It's not just about the Earthen Ring being distrustful towards the Forsaken and desiring to know something more about them, considered how one of the lines you (conveniently?) left out tell about giving "sound advice" to Cairne thanks to the tome, implying nothing about the search of a cure.

Then there is a quest where the forsaken utilize a dying tauren who came to seek aid to "find a cure for the plague"


"You know where this is leading, don't you, <name>? There's no way she can survive... look at her. The best thing for her now is to aid us in finding a cure for the plague. This water she drank might have a clue that helps us figure out how. She's going to die anyway—she might as well die doing something noble for our people before she does. "

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Seeping_Corruption_(1)

The dying tauren mentions they heard rumors that forsaken alchemists are researching a cure for the plague of undeath.

"I've come to Undercity because I heard their alchemists have been studying long and hard on how to find a cure for their own illness. "

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:Seeping_Corruption_(2)

Yeah, one Apothecary spoke about finding a cure. How this is meant to prove a pact between the Horde and the Forsaken in regards of that is a mystery. The tauren is doomed and is used as test subject, she's not involved whatsoever with the Apothecary's musings. Which means that is little more than his own thoughts. And we know that whatever research he could have conducted by his own brought to nowhere. At most, it supported the future developing of the New Plague (which I think is hinted in those quests, but I'm lacking the will to read them all over again).

One thing is sure, there's nothing implying an excpectation of the Horde towards the Forsaken finding a cure of whatever fashion, nor an acknowledged willingness to help them on such matter, if we ignore Magatha and her bullshit.

Grand apothecary Putress was also "searching" for a cure.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Questesperate_Research

" As any forsaken will agree, the end justifies the means, and our research into the zombie plague's cure is that proverb in practice..."

Are you aware this was about the zombie apocalypse of the pre-WotLK event and utterly unrelated with what I was arguing about, right?

[Mehrunes]

They aren't contingents, they are citizens. As in residents. As in noncombatants. The "contingents" are the alliance and horde military forces ensconced in their own enclaves. While I haven't seen forsaken "Dalaran Citizen"s yet, I have seen Orcs, Blood Elves, and if I remember correctly a Tauren at the very least. Horde races were not barred, the political organization of the Horde was. I doubt the Kirin Tor would have even gone along with a blanket ban based upon race, given how the council voted once the Legion arrived.

You know, the entire Horde quarter. And wait, you're using the Dalaran visitors as proof that Horde races have citizens? Even though Jaina imprisoned even the normal citizens during the Purge?

Because she was the leader of the Kirin Tor and Dalaran during a time of war, and in particular this time of crisis which despite the endless protestations of horde apologists, was not of her making. Because one decision that doesn't weigh it's fairness in a time like that is not enough to consign a head of state to the klink. But please, keep on being ridiculous.

The head of Kirin Tor is nothing more than a representative function and the city is ruled by the Council of Six. We've seen numerous time the Council imprisoning one of their own or attempting to do so, one time being because Garithos told them so. Ridiculous my ass. Also, Dalaran wasn't at war with anyone there and I'm not sure where you're seeing "Horde apologists" blaming Jaina for that specific period of crisis.

Explain how exactly it's a double standard. In regards to what I am saying, not what you are thinking/inserting. Whatl I am saying is the decision, while a poor one, is no real reason to condemn the character completely, call for her death via raid boss, or make up nonsense about her being a dreadlord.

You're saying that imprisoning Sunreavers was OK even though they (well, Aethas) worked under duress, because they broke neutrality. Jaina broke neutrality first and even though it has been pointed out to you already after your first post in this thread you're still ignoring that. Damn, 'twas hard.

[Koryn123]

Sylvanas made a peace treaty with Garithos and what was left of the Alliance of Lordaeron, only to order then killed at the gates and within the ruins of the city. Have you forgotten how she betrayed every single human in Lordaeron whom she alongside with? Now when humans are out for revenge over this, once again it is apparently their fault.

She lied. And she didn't hijack the entire narrative-that-people-actually-care-about of an expansion to convince everyone in the world that it was Garithos who brought it on himself.

This is another instance of Sylvanas doing something bad that's tolerable because Blizzard didn't try to convince the audience of the lie that she was a perfect paragon of virtue and morality.

Jaina on the other hand, is presented as telling the truth, when we know for absolute fact that it can't possibly be the truth, until Blizzard declares officially that pretty much all of Theramore's lore in WoW (except hosting a summit between Thrall and Varian) is non-canon.


And your example was about Arthas and Sylvanas. Don't flip flop because you know your example didn't compare at all with the Jaina/Horde incidents.


The main deal here is that Sylvanas never claimed herself or the Forsaken to be a beacon of peace and neutrality who never attacked anyone and thus nobody had any good reason to attack the Forsaken.

Jaina, however, does claim that herself and Theramore were beacons of peace and neutrality who never attacked anyone and thus nobody, especially not the Horde, had any reason to attack Thereamore apart from "they're monsters daddy i should have listened to you, wait, i can't hear your voice, how come, oh yeah i forgot, you're dead because you attacked the Horde unprovokedly and wouldn't stop, so they were forced to put you down. Maybe I should have learned something from that experience."


But Jaina is wrong. Theramore was the farthest thing from peaceful and neutral. They hid behind their treaty for three years while they gave any assistance they could to the Night Elves and Alliance against the orcs. A treaty that Thrall honored, refusing to devote any troops to the Warsong Clan, who acted independently when they saw their Warchief was just going to let their children starve and die in the desert. Then they themselves attacked the Horde and waged war and laid siege to them for an entire YEAR before Garrosh retaliated. What is so hard to grasp about that?

[Tyrion Moonblade]

You know, the entire Horde quarter. And wait, you're using the Dalaran visitors as proof that Horde races have citizens? Even though Jaina imprisoned even the normal citizens during the Purge?

No, I'm using the Blood Elf and Orcish CITIZENS in Dalaran, who certainly didn't decide to move in as soon as the city became the base of operations against the legion. Horde still con red, Dalaran Citizens of Blood Elven or Orcish descent do not, they are part of the Kirin Tor. If you are going to try and make straw men, pop in game and make sure you aren't making an ass of yourself.

The head of Kirin Tor is nothing more than a representative function and the city is ruled by the Council of Six. We've seen numerous time the Council imprisoning one of their own or attempting to do so, one time being because Garithos told them so. Ridiculous my ass. Also, Dalaran wasn't at war with anyone there and I'm not sure where you're seeing "Horde apologists" blaming Jaina for that specific period of crisis.

Dalaran was drawn into the war through Garrosh and the players' actions. This happened after the assault on Darnassus. That was the breach of neutrality. Who cares about Garithos or previous councils of six? Do you ever address points directly or do you just half-assedly try and deflect anything that runs counter to your preconcieved notions?

You're saying that imprisoning Sunreavers was OK even though they (well, Aethas) worked under duress, because they broke neutrality. Jaina broke neutrality first and even though it has been pointed out to you already after your first post in this thread you're still ignoring that. Damn, 'twas hard.

I'm saying that it was a poor decision that a bunch of apologists for REAL war criminals are harping on inordinately. I'm saying there was justification in the moment, but that the Sunreavers should have been repatriated much, MUCH sooner than they were. I'm saying that the actions of the Sunreavers (your actions as an agent and Aethas' actions as their leader) have consequences. If I ignored something, it is because it was posted by someone I have ignored, not because I am ignoring a statement. Certain people on this board are not interested in discussion, even heated discussion, but simply browbeating people into agreeing (often using out of context facts, their own misinterpretations put forth as fact, and some random line of text spoken by Random Unrealiable NPC # 15612 as proof positive that they are right and everyone else is wrong) and I'm not here to have my blood pressure raised. I'm here to kill time.

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Jaina, however, does claim that herself and Theramore were beacons of peace and neutrality who never attacked anyone and thus nobody, especially not the Horde, had any reason to attack Thereamore apart from "they're monsters daddy i should have listened to you, wait, i can't hear your voice, how come, oh yeah i forgot, you're dead because you attacked the Horde unprovokedly and wouldn't stop, so they were forced to put you down. Maybe I should have learned something from that experience."

She killed her own father in order to preserve peace between Orcs and Humans on Kalimdor, waged war against her own people. Throughout Classic and Burning Crusade Theramore was entirely reactive, if not even passive. Most of the questing there revolved around solving the murder of a man's family by the Grimtotem burning down their tavern to inflame racial tensions. If this weren't the case, the Horde would have been crushed by the might of the Night Elves to the north and Theramore to the south. Or have you forgotten that they were ever the underdog faction before Garrosh pulled about three clans worth of Mag'har out of his ass to bolster their ranks?

But Jaina is wrong. Theramore was the farthest thing from peaceful and neutral. They hid behind their treaty for three years while they gave any assistance they could to the Night Elves and Alliance against the orcs.

You are the one who is wrong here. There was no overt aggression by the Night Elves OR the Alliance as a whole during classic/BC in this area. Even the revamp of Dustwallow made it reactive (find out who slaughtered this guard post. find out who burned this tavern. find out who's trying to spark a war. Spoiler, it was the Grimtotem.)

A treaty that Thrall honored, refusing to devote any troops to the Warsong Clan, who acted independently when they saw their Warchief was just going to let their children starve and die in the desert.

A fine bit of propaganda to convey the fact that Thrall didn't want the hot-headed, warmongering Warsong Clan invading Ashenvale FURTHER and sparking a full scale war. I'm reminded of a screaming conservative caterwauling for war because "Think of the children"..

Then they themselves attacked the Horde and waged war and laid siege to them for an entire YEAR before Garrosh retaliated. What is so hard to grasp about that?

This has me wondering whether you are misinformed or just lying through your teeth. Theramore was not used as a stating point until AFTER Garrosh had already started his war.

[Mehrunes]

No, I'm using the Blood Elf and Orcish CITIZENS in Dalaran, who certainly didn't decide to move in as soon as the city became the base of operations against the legion. Horde still con red, Dalaran Citizens of Blood Elven or Orcish descent do not, they are part of the Kirin Tor. If you are going to try and make straw men, pop in game and make sure you aren't making an ass of yourself.

I asked a question so the one making an ass of yourself is you (surprise, surprise). And other than the Dalaran visitors from Wrath that disappear after some time and the demon infiltrators there is one Orc, one Forsaken, one Tauren and six Blood Elfs in Legion's version of Dalaran outside of Horde quarter. Most of them are new NPCs and you have no way f knowing when they moved it. I haven't checked all the Blood Elves, but only one wasn't a shopkeeper so if they were from old Dalaran they were part of the imprisonment and given Jaina's relation with Silvermoon weren't really in the mood to settle there prior to Jaina's leaving (if they were even released earlier). Kinda doubtful Jaina would allow them back either, in case they were released earlier.

Dalaran was drawn into the war through Garrosh and the players' actions. This happened after the assault on Darnassus. That was the breach of neutrality. Who cares about Garithos or previous councils of six? Do you ever address points directly or do you just half-assedly try and deflect anything that runs counter to your preconcieved notions?

That's mighty weird given how Garrosh and players did that after Jaina already aided Darnassus, personally. Which was the first breach of neutrality, on Jaina's part. Your chronology is atrocious. And since you can't read, I'll try again, hoping you did learn that skill in the meantime: I didn't use Garithos as an example related to the breach of neutrality or Garrosh's/Jaina's actions. I used them as an example of how members of the Council of the Six aren't immune to imprisonment. Imagine that, I addressed two points in one paragraph. Impossibru. Do you ever read what's being said to you or do you flail around like a child and half-assedly try and deflect anything that runs counter to your preconceived notions?

I'm saying that it was a poor decision that a bunch of apologists for REAL war criminals are harping on inordinately. I'm saying there was justification in the moment, but that the Sunreavers should have been repatriated much, MUCH sooner than they were. I'm saying that the actions of the Sunreavers (your actions as an agent and Aethas' actions as their leader) have consequences. If I ignored something, it is because it was posted by someone I have ignored, not because I am ignoring a statement. Certain people on this board are not interested in discussion, even heated discussion, but simply browbeating people into agreeing (often using out of context facts, their own misinterpretations put forth as fact, and some random line of text spoken by Random Unrealiable NPC # 15612 as proof positive that they are right and everyone else is wrong) and I'm not here to have my blood pressure raised. I'm here to kill time.

Considering it was me who posted that and here you are replying to me you're either inconsistent in how you go around ignoring people or you just conveniently skipped something that ran contrary to your preconceived notions. Jaina broke neutrality first. Again, how comes you're not championing for her actions to have consequences too?

She killed her own father in order to preserve peace between Orcs and Humans on Kalimdor, waged war against her own people. Throughout Classic and Burning Crusade Theramore was entirely reactive, if not even passive. Most of the questing there revolved around solving the murder of a man's family by the Grimtotem burning down their tavern to inflame racial tensions. If this weren't the case, the Horde would have been crushed by the might of the Night Elves to the north and Theramore to the south. Or have you forgotten that they were ever the underdog faction before Garrosh pulled about three clans worth of Mag'har out of his ass to bolster their ranks?

Yes, Night Elves and Theramore alone at any point in time countered the Kalimdor part of the Horde. Totally. And last I checked Northwatch strained racial tensions just fine too. And Theramore soldiers around Ogre village in Dustwallow.

You are the one who is wrong here. There was no overt aggression by the Night Elves OR the Alliance as a whole during classic/BC in this area. Even the revamp of Dustwallow made it reactive (find out who slaughtered this guard post. find out who burned this tavern. find out who's trying to spark a war. Spoiler, it was the Grimtotem.)

Night Elves attacking Orcs on the border over trees isn't overt aggression? Fascinating.

This has me wondering whether you are misinformed or just lying through your teeth. Theramore was not used as a stating point until AFTER Garrosh had already started his war.

This has me wondering whether you're misinformed about chronology again or just lying through your teeth. Northwatch attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand before Cataclysm while Garrosh invaded Ashenvale after Cataclysm.

[Tyrion Moonblade]

That's the hypocrisy of the Alliance.
Alliance uses a city (Theramore) to attack the Horde: Still neutral!
Horde uses a city (Dalaran) to infiltrate the Alliance and steal an item: OMG NEUTRALITY BROKEN!

Ok, apparently since you need it, I'll break out the marked differences between these two.

Theramore was, even if trying to remain neutral, an Alliance base. After Garrosh kicked off the war by invading Ashenvale Jaina had little choice but to obey the High King, or secede and declare war. Jaina's gossip text even states her position; that the war must be stopped.

Dalaran was neutral ground, and used as a staging point to kill a whole bunch of Nelves and steal a WMD.

There's nothing ridiculous about what he said.

Yes there was.

Without Council-approveAL Jaina invited two foreign militia's into the Kingdom to commit genocide against a part of its citizens.
Even in our real world that would either be a death- or life sentence.

1) She may or may not have had council approvAL (ftfy), but where are you getting two foreign militaries? After the neutrality of Dalaran was broken, she excercised her rights as head of state to round up those responsible. Some resisted. It was not genocide, that's what the Orcs tried to do (three times now).

2) Where are you getting "two foreign militias" from? lol

Garrosh started his war during/after the Cataclysm.
From in-game conversations and quests it is clear that attacks by and through Theramore started before the Cataclysm.

Funny, because I played those quests. Both sides. And no, it isn't. Not even close. In fact, every online resource I was able to check JUST IN CASE I was remembering wrong confirms Theramore was made into a staging point AFTER Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. Sooooo.. try again? Post a source?

[Aucald]

I'm aware that Horde vs. Alliance partisan politics tends to rouse people's passions, but several posters here are skirting the borderlands of flaming. Cool your collective jets and debate with facts, evidence-backed speculation, and without rancor.

[Koryn123]

She killed her own father in order to preserve peace between Orcs and Humans on Kalimdor, waged war against her own people. Throughout Classic and Burning Crusade Theramore was entirely reactive, if not even passive. Most of the questing there revolved around solving the murder of a man's family by the Grimtotem burning down their tavern to inflame racial tensions. If this weren't the case, the Horde would have been crushed by the might of the Night Elves to the north and Theramore to the south. Or have you forgotten that they were ever the underdog faction before Garrosh pulled about three clans worth of Mag'har out of his ass to bolster their ranks?

You are the one who is wrong here. There was no overt aggression by the Night Elves OR the Alliance as a whole during classic/BC in this area. Even the revamp of Dustwallow made it reactive (find out who slaughtered this guard post. find out who burned this tavern. find out who's trying to spark a war. Spoiler, it was the Grimtotem.)

A fine bit of propaganda to convey the fact that Thrall didn't want the hot-headed, warmongering Warsong Clan invading Ashenvale FURTHER and sparking a full scale war. I'm reminded of a screaming conservative caterwauling for war because "Think of the children"..

This has me wondering whether you are misinformed or just lying through your teeth. Theramore was not used as a stating point until AFTER Garrosh had already started his war.

Yes, she allowed Daelin to be killed by the Horde to preserve peace because he wouldn't listen and was not open to peace.

When the Night Elves refused to trade with the orcs for lumber and Thrall refused to resort to violence, the Warsong Clan wouldn't stand by while Thrall failed their people and let them die, so they took matters into their own hands and started harvesting lumber and sending it to Orgrimmar as a gift. The Night Elves saw the orcs defiling their sacred forests and retaliated, but apparently a tiny portion of the Horde that wasn't even devoting any actual military might to the cause was too much for the Night Elves to handle, so they sent word to Theramore asking for help. Theramore said "Sorry, we signed a peace treaty, so we can't help you fight the Horde, but we can send supplies to help you, and put you in touch with our friends across the sea in Stormwind and Ironforge. They hate the Horde and will be happy to help you kill them." And Theramore built a highway through their marshes for the Alliance to use to get to Ashenvale easier. And Jaina let the Alliance use her harbors for their warships, and allowed them to transport their troops through her city and helped them any way she could, without actively devoting any of her own troops to the cause, just like Thrall. Only difference here is that Thrall didn't do any legwork for the Warsong Clan at all, as Jaina did for the Night Elves. He didn't send any orc troops, didn't ask Cairne, Vol'jin, Sylvanas, or Lor'themar to send any of theirs either. The Warsong Clan sent their own envoys around to find any Horde individuals who agreed with their cause and wanted to fight with them to secure the survival of their people. Jaina found the Night Elves' allies for them. Saying "Hey, Varian, Magni, Gelbin, you guys still wanna kill orcs? Well there's a big nation of Night Elves here, and they also wanna kill orcs, so because I'm interested in preserving peace, I'm telling you guys so you'll jump at the chance to use the Night Elves as a pawn against the Horde you still hate after beating them 10+ years ago, and will come and join their little skirmish, and blow this whole conflict way out of proportion. Instead of doing the peaceful thing and maybe helping to facilitate negotiations for the orcs to trade with you guys for lumber, because you guys don't consider trees to be sacred like the Night Elves do."


I never said Theramore was fighting the Horde from Vanilla to WotLK. They were supplying the fighters from the other Alliance nations with resources, equipment, transport, and lodging. In other words, helping them kill the Horde in every way possible without participating in the actual fighting.

And the Night Elves weren't "mighty" anymore like they were in WC3 on par with the entire Horde comprised of the Tauren, Darkspear, and orcs at the time. In WoW, many of their former allies were lost to the Legion's invasion. Moonkin and Furbolgs went crazy, Ancients were corrupted, lots of the druids went back to sleep, etc. That's why they joined the Alliance, an out of character thing for Tyrande to do, considering she was usually xenophobic to the point of stupidity.

Nor was Theramore. They were probably the weakest of the three groups who fought together at Hyjal. They're definitely the smallest and never contributed to any campaign against even a shared enemy like C'thun or sent their troops to Outland like the rest of the Alliance and Horde have.


Theramore was however, not doing anything to stop their guys at Northwatch Hold from firing upon any Horde or suspected-horde ship that passed by, even trying to control Ratchet and keep any Horde vessels from entering or leaving. That was one bit of aggression pre-Cata.


I'm saying that POST-Cata, Theramore DID attack the Horde. Regardless of whether or not Jaina was correct that Garrosh would attack Theramore after the Night Elves, SHE declared war and invaded them first.

Theramore is a member of the Alliance, but it is not beholden to its allies, and isn't obligated to join them in any war they have. At the time, Varian wasn't the High King yet, and even so, Jaina never had a problem disagreeing with him and refusing to do what he said. They didn't have to attack the Horde. But when the Horde attacked the Night Elves in force for the first time ever with actual support backing the Warsong Clan, Theramore attacked the Horde.

It's in Durotar quests where adventurers stop Theramore from becoming too entrenched south of the Valley of Trials. They're setting up a base camp and spying on the orcs in the Valley of Trials. You first kill a few spies there, then when you leave around level 5 and get to Sen'jin Village, you find their base camp and attack it, finding invasion plans for the Valley of Trials, Sen'jin Village, Razor Hill, and Orgrimmar itself. Then later on when you get to Razor Hill, you're sent to Tiragarde Keep, where the Kul Tirans used to be, but were killed by a big tidal wave from the Cataclysm. Theramore has sent troops to salvage the keep for themselves to establish it as a fortified position from which to strike at the Horde.


And in the Barrens, Theramore's troops are attacking and destroying Horde settlements, and laying siege to Mulgore.

News flash: The Horde finally attacked Theramore's Northwatch Hold, and then Theramore itself, at the END of Cataclysm, not the start.


And yes, that's exactly why Thrall didn't commit any support to the Warsong, because he didn't want war. Unlike the Night Elves, who, because the Warsong Clan were acting without the Horde's consent, declare war on the entire Horde, even though they can't even deal with one single clan on their own, so how the heck did they plan on beating the whole Horde before Jaina went all super peace lover and brought in some people to escalate the war way higher?

[Aquamonkey]

Theramore was, even if trying to remain neutral, an Alliance base. After Garrosh kicked off the war by invading Ashenvale Jaina had little choice but to obey the High King, or secede and declare war. Jaina's gossip text even states her position; that the war must be stopped.

That's not how the Alliance or the position of High King work. Theramore was a sovereign kingdom. The Alliance and the High King have no authority over the land, its citizens, or its troops. The High King only has command of the military assets lent to it by the Alliance member nations.

For those asking about King Wrynn's role, "Supreme Allied Commander" sounds about right. Coordinating the military. Figurehead/inspiration. (DaveKosak)

Is the position of "high king" like the supreme commander position of Lothar?
Yes. About army focus, not control. (ChrisMetzen)

Hi! A roleplayer here (no laughing) About the High King title, he only has control over the forces given to him right?
yes. If other leaders don't like his calls, they don't commit forces. They give him deference in overall strategic command. (ChrisMetzen)

[Tyrion Moonblade]

I asked a question so the one making an ass of yourself is you (surprise, surprise). And other than the Dalaran visitors from Wrath that disappear after some time and the demon infiltrators there is one Orc, one Forsaken, one Tauren and six Blood Elfs in Legion's version of Dalaran outside of Horde quarter. Most of them are new NPCs and you have no way f knowing when they moved it. I haven't checked all the Blood Elves, but only one wasn't a shopkeeper so if they were from old Dalaran they were part of the imprisonment and given Jaina's relation with Silvermoon weren't really in the mood to settle there prior to Jaina's leaving (if they were even released earlier). Kinda doubtful Jaina would allow them back either, in case they were released earlier.

Jaina's interactions with Silvermoon, that being the Lor'Themar in Isle of Thunder, was tense but ended cordially. After that and SoO the Sunreavers were repatriated (otherwise Aethas would not have been present in the throne room to speak about contacts on the inside of the kirin tor). I am not speaking of visitors. I am speaking of the "Dalaran Citizen" npcs which wander throughout, in particular next to Zimbob Fizzleswindler or whatever goblin twat is standing outside of the alliance bank being painfully annoying. I've seen Belves, Orcs, and again IIRC a Tauren running around. It isn't stated explicitly when these characters moved in, but being that they didn't exist in Northrend Dalaran and Jaina was Archmage until basically a month before they teleported the city to the Broken Isles (and it was under heavy attack by demons during that time) it is common sense that you wouldn't have a bunch of incoming residents. People weren't exactly moving TO Stalingrad in November '42. So they had to have moved in during Jaina's tenure.

That's mighty weird given how Garrosh and players did that after Jaina already aided Darnassus, personally. Which was the first breach of neutrality, on Jaina's part. Your chronology is atrocious. And since you can't read, I'll try again, hoping you did learn that skill in the meantime: I didn't use Garithos as an example related to the breach of neutrality or Garrosh's/Jaina's actions. I used them as an example of how members of the Council of the Six aren't immune to imprisonment. Imagine that, I addressed two points in one paragraph. Impossibru. Do you ever read what's being said to you or do you flail around like a child and half-assedly try and deflect anything that runs counter to your preconceived notions?

Typical of a horde fanboy. Jaina "aided" Darnassus by keeping a WMD out of the hands of a madman who had already used one on her city. That is reaching to the point of absurdity, leaving aside the fact she didn't use Kirin Tor resources (the point of contention here) to set up those wards, only her own.

Considering it was me who posted that and here you are replying to me you're either inconsistent in how you go around ignoring people or you just conveniently skipped something that ran contrary to your preconceived notions. Jaina broke neutrality first. Again, how comes you're not championing for her actions to have consequences too?

If I missed that from you I apologize, I have clicked on each post reply notification I have received and don't remember that. Also, reading what you are talking about actually made me LOL. Jaina didn't order those strikes, in fact remained railing against the war well after it was in full swing. Northwatch was well known to be filled with Tirasian leftovers from Daelen's men, and struck out on their own. You gonna blame her for the green tabards on Durotar's shores as well?

Yes, Night Elves and Theramore alone at any point in time countered the Kalimdor part of the Horde. Totally. And last I checked Northwatch strained racial tensions just fine too. And Theramore soldiers around Ogre village in Dustwallow.

I'm confused as to what you are saying here. My statement was to the effect that the Horde was the underdog faction, and were it not for the pacificistic/truce honoring tendencies of the Alliance, particularly Theramore, the Alliance would have crushed the horde, or at least sent them scurrying to Thunder Bluff.

Night Elves attacking Orcs on the border over trees isn't overt aggression? Fascinating.

Night Elves counterattacking (NPCs only, at that) from an illegal land grab, a breaking of treaties established after the 3rd war, and the defiling of sacred ground is not overt aggression, no.

This has me wondering whether you're misinformed about chronology again or just lying through your teeth. Northwatch attacked Crossroads and Honor's Stand before Cataclysm while Garrosh invaded Ashenvale after Cataclysm.

More bullshit about Northwatch like the orders came from anybody but the racist Tirasian shits at Northwatch. Anything to support your false narrative, I guess?

[llubtoille]

I rather hope the horde-alliance conflict spills into Dalaran by the end of the expansion, destroying the city and killing its inhabitants.