No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Zalamander]

Why do you guys insist on continuing to call it a compromise? It's not. Blizzard gets everything they want out of the "compromise" and gives up nothing. All Blizzard is doing is holding flight hostage until people give into their demands. That's not a compromise.

Stockholm syndrome you know. They are the kind of people who after getting robbed of $1000 feel fine just getting $500 back because they have started feeling sympathy for the thief.

[Ordinator]

Why do you guys insist on continuing to call it a compromise? It's not. Blizzard gets everything they want out of the "compromise" and gives up nothing. All Blizzard is doing is holding flight hostage until people give into their demands. That's not a compromise.

You're not compromising with Blizzard. You're compromising with people who don't really want flying in relevant content.

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Stockholm syndrome you know. They are the kind of people who after getting robbed of $1000 feel fine just getting $500 back because they have started feeling sympathy for the thief.

Or.. ya know.. somebody could just have a different idea of whats good for the game.

[Eats Compost]

Read the last ten pages and here is a quick summary.

*They have to make sure they are no holes in the geometry
*Make sure the skybox is set properly
*Make sure that players are not instantly dismounted when crossing one phase to another.
*Broken Isles carved up by CRZ and CRZ which will cause unexpected dismounts. Another example is CRZ causes stealth to instantly drop from one side to another.

Best case scenario they can make sure everything is clear one month. Usually it takes 2-3 months which is why in the past it was tested in beta of BC, WotLK, Cata, and MoP. BC had a short beta so they started testing flight earlier than beta, but they still needed the extra time to ensure flight was ready for players.

This isn't vanilla, you know. They've been doing most of that for general-purpose reasons since BC, especially since WoD introduced things like Avianna's Feather which require it anyway. Also, stuff like "making sure there are no holes in the geometry" is sorta laughable. Players betas tend not to spend time mashing themselves against obscure otherwise-inaccessible walls, floors and objects just to see if they fall through. As for phasing, that's far more closely related to the tech itself rather than specific instances of it. Exactly the same thing applies to CRZ.

Flying isn't something that they commit a significant amount of time to testing, and it's outright disingenuous to even suggest that something like flight's release in WoD is a part of the equation. If they wanted to bring flying out quickly, they could do it immediately and fall back on hotfixes for edge cases like they always do.

[Thimagryn]

You're not compromising with Blizzard. You're compromising with people who don't really want flying in relevant content.

Wait, why is that even necessary? What do people who don't want flying have anything to do with this? What is there to compromise?

And no, Eapoe's statement was "Blizzard, in the end, found a compromise to the problem at hand"; which has nothing to do with what you just said here.

[Deleted]

Or.. ya know.. somebody could just have a different idea of whats good for the game.

Yes... I see those specialists applauding to decisions that made the game soooo great again that it cost the game millions of players in one freaking expasion (mo, not only flight). Those specialists that give the new promoted Lead of WoW credits for "knowing whats good for the game"... a hardcore raider and head of Elitist Jerks ignoring the FCAT that raiding (and hardcore progressive raiding) NEVER has been the motor to drive the masses to wow. Until LFR not even 10% saw the actual raid of each expansion.... but those specialists still thing that it is what moves the masses.

Some people just lack common sense big time, especially the people you think know whats best for the game.

[Zalamander]

You're not compromising with Blizzard. You're compromising with people who don't really want flying in relevant content.

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Or.. ya know.. somebody could just have a different idea of whats good for the game.

Wrong and wrong again.

It's very simple. There was no people campaigning for no flying or for flying before blizzard started to mess with flying. No matter on what side you are it was blizzard who made and incredibly stupid decision that created this wedge and conflict in the community. But since you are a hater I bet you love it. But I love flying and having someone mess with my favorite feature in my favorite game is really sad, what do you expect?
What do you love in this game that would make you really sad if they removed and later put in hostage behind irrelevant things you don't want to do?

[Ordinator]

Wait, why is that even necessary? What do people who don't want flying have anything to do with this? What is there to compromise?

Person 1 wants PVP to change, Person 2 doesn't want it to change. No compromise needs to exist, because both can coexist with different opinions.

Sorry but no. Pretending flying doesn't exist while seeing all the players in the game fly above you is nonsensical. Something you need to understand is it's not about the action of not flying, it's about the state of the game while people aren't allowed to leave the world whenever they want. Disagreeing with what you believe is a better state of the game is fine. But don't be that guy who brings the pathetic "just don't fly" argument.

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Wrong and wrong again.

It's very simple. There was no people campaigning for no flying or for flying before blizzard started to mess with flying. No matter on what side you are it was blizzard who made and incredibly stupid decision that created this wedge and conflict in the community. But since you are a hater I bet you love it. But I love flying and having someone mess with my favorite feature in my favorite game is really sad, what do you expect?
What do you love in this game that would make you really sad if they removed and later put in hostage behind irrelevant things you don't want to do?

I've answered this before. I wouldn't put all of the games worth in something entirely auxiliary. You're asking to be let down.

[Zalamander]

This isn't vanilla, you know. They've been doing most of that for general-purpose reasons since BC, especially since WoD introduced things like Avianna's Feather which require it anyway. Also, stuff like "making sure there are no holes in the geometry" is sorta laughable. Players betas tend not to spend time mashing themselves against obscure otherwise-inaccessible walls, floors and objects just to see if they fall through. As for phasing, that's far more closely related to the tech itself rather than specific instances of it. Exactly the same thing applies to CRZ.

Flying isn't something that they commit a significant amount of time to testing, and it's outright disingenuous to even suggest that something like flight's release in WoD is a part of the equation. If they wanted to bring flying out quickly, they could do it immediately and fall back on hotfixes for edge cases like they always do.

Blizzard already admitted many players ended up stuck or bugged in many places they were not supposed to be using aviannas feather. However, aviannas feather is not a flying mount, its usable "indoors"(the gliding part) and you can't get "dismounted" from it. There was however several indoor open roof places in draenor that would instantly dismount you when you flew over them. clearly remember two I encountered on PTR, one of them was an open volcano mountain in gorgrond. I also found places over the ocean where you would instantly die when flying over.
Don't go around and believe that the game world is just like any world where everything "just works", its a game, and you clearly underestimate development if you start thinking anything is simple even if it seems simple.

I've answered this before. I wouldn't put all of the games worth in something entirely auxiliary. You're asking to be let down.

I never said I did and you never answered the last question so you haven't answered it already at all.

[Ordinator]

lack common sense big time

Oh you believe no flying is why everyone disliked WoD?

[Thimagryn]

Sorry but no. Pretending flying doesn't exist while seeing all the players in the game fly above you is nonsensical. Something you need to understand is it's not about the action of not flying, it's about the state of the game while people aren't allowed to leave the world whenever they want. Disagreeing with what you believe is a better state of the game is fine. But don't be that guy who brings the pathetic "just don't fly" argument.

Well sorry to burst your bubble, but we already know flying is returning to the game. Whatever non-flying conversation you think needs to be had simply doesn't exist, because we all are aware of what is and what will be happening. The discussion thus far is about how Blizzard is handling postponed flight; not the adverse affects of flight and reasons it should stay removed.

And again, to point out, your whole statement about compromise was completely off base considering the original quote was "Blizzard, in the end, found a compromise to the problem at hand" and has nothing to do with 'pro-non flying'. You literally pointed to a conversation that was never being had.

[Eats Compost]

Blizzard already admitted many players ended up stuck or bugged in many places they were not supposed to be using aviannas feather. However, aviannas feather is not a flying mount, its usable "indoors"(the gliding part) and you can't get "dismounted" from it. There was however several indoor open roof places in draenor that would instantly dismount you when you flew over them. clearly remember two I encountered on PTR, one of them was an open volcano mountain in gorgrond. I also found places over the ocean where you would instantly die when flying over.
Don't go around and believe that the game world is just like any world where everything "just works", its a game, and you clearly underestimate development if you start thinking anything is simple even if it seems simple.

And yet, that doesn't make the idea that flying undergoes an extensive, mandatory months-long testing cycle before it could possibly be released any more plausible. What's really getting under my skin here is that the release date of flying in WoD was so late specifically because of testing. You don't buy that, right?

And to clarify, I'm talking about the things that they wouldn't be testing for general purpose reasons anyway.

[Ordinator]

I never said I did and you never answered the last question so you haven't answered it already at all.

That was my answer. I don't have to pick one thing that could possibly be on the chopping block because the worth of the game for me isn't something that can just be removed.

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because we all are aware of what is and what will be happening. The discussion thus far is about how Blizzard is handling postponed flight; not the adverse affects of flight and reasons it should stay removed.

Okay. How would you have them handle it any differently without changing the design decision they've already committed themselves to?

[Deleted]

Oh you believe no flying is why everyone disliked WoD?

i see you lack common sense AND reading skills... and i am tired of repeating myself, so i suggest you go back many many many pages and read all the posts where i stated that no-flight hasn't been the only reason for people to quit.

[Zalamander]

And yet, that doesn't make the idea that flying undergoes an extensive, mandatory months-long testing cycle before it could possibly be released any more plausible. What's really getting under my skin here is that the release date of flying in WoD was so late specifically because of testing. You don't buy that, right?

Well I didn't bother me that much, of course there was more than just flying on that PTR and we have no ides of knowing how many developers were put on correcting this environment while the others were busy working on legion already. It was an unplanned extra priority job that just came out of nowhere after all.

[Thimagryn]

Don't go around and believe that the game world is just like any world where everything "just works", its a game, and you clearly underestimate development if you start thinking anything is simple even if it seems simple.

This is like saying they can't release the Dance Studio because of testing. The statement isn't false, but it isn't supported by any evidence either.

[Zalamander]

While I won't say it's simple, I'll say that I believe you're making it sound harder than it is. Every expansion that had flight at max level had bugs and shit to fix after it was already available, and that didn't stop flight from being implemented. People get stuck regardless, that's the nature of implementing a global feature that affects the entire world. Believing that the feature is being withheld because of testing is plausible, yet incredibly inconsistent to what we have already seen.

Its true there were bug in other expansions on release but that pales in compared to how flying was in draenor when they "flipped the switch"(released flying on PTR) it was at least ten times as buggy as any release you have ever seen.

[Thimagryn]

Okay. How would you have them handle it any differently without changing the design decision they've already committed themselves to?

Why handle it differently than any previous expansion?

Again, there was no pro-no flight movement asking for the removal of flight. The decision to change design is an internal development one; one that does not affect the player's experience of the game. Every expansion (sans Cata) had flight available after max level and no time before that. We all had the experience of leveling up through the world, on the ground. It worked for everyone.

Do you think every expansion after Vanilla was completely unplayable because of flight?

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Its true there were bug in other expansions on release but that pales in compared to how flying was in draenor when they "flipped the switch"(released flying on PTR) it was at least ten times as buggy as any release you have ever seen.

I still firmly believe that Draenor was designed without flight in mind. They communicated that much later into development, but I believe that was the intention from the beginning. That's why it took so long to reimplement - they never really intended it in the first place.

If they are making that 'mistake' again now, then this discussion has far more value in hopes that Blizzard returns to designing content with flight in mind; rather than trying to 'fix, patch in and test' as an afterthought.

[Eapoe]

Nothing wrong with earning the right to have it. A reward that needs to be unlocked is absolutely fine, IMO. My issue is the time gating, which serves little purpose. I'm at the thought that we should have flight available (albeit locked behind achievements) to us at max level. People still consume leveling content at the pace that Blizzard desires, and the end-game is accessible at each person's pace. Casuals will continue at their slow leveling pace while power gamers like me are free to consume the content as quickly as possible. Overall content is still controlled by daily limits; there is no difference in which week/day people will reach exalted with a faction with or without flight. As for future patch content that Blizzard wants to pace; Molten Front, Timeless Isles and Tanaan Jungle are prime examples of how to do that.

And as for trivializing content - how is that any different than how previous expansions were treated? Why was that not an issue in Wrath? Why is that suddenly an issue here and now? Subs didn't drop because world content was being trivialized. The ones who care most about this is Blizzard, because they're the ones who have to pace and offer content. Just because there are people who are fine with the change (ie those who didn't bother getting flight in Draenor) doesn't mean that the feature should be phased out. If that's really what Blizzard wants to do, I think this makes threads like this even more important - this coming from a player who doesn't care that much about flight but still appreciates having it.

Why unlock it now just to have to lock it again next patch so that content isn't trivialized? Do you really want to go to a model where you have to do every storyline quest, and every other achievement it's locked behind to get it just to have it taken away again when the next patch is released? Keep in mind that there are still many players who don't even have the rep requirement done yet almost 2 months in and were only 2-3 months from the next patch. Add on that Blizzard is trying for faster patch cycles to give longevity to content and that means that there will be people who never unlock flight using that model.
As far as Wrath and other xpacs, the problem still persisted. The difference in those xpacs was that flight was still something new (relative term when you consider lifetimes of the game and MMO model), as well as the fact that flight was required for a few parts of those xpacs. That doesn't mean that once you got flight for the 1% of the content it was needed for that it didn't trivialize the other 95% of the game. (Before you attempt the flaws in my math, only about 4% of content is instanced areas without flight). The issue was still there, it just wasn't a sign noticed because people were still going thru the "new, shiny" aspect of flight. It still had the same issues of being a convenience only method of travel while completely trivializing the world and any dangers it has. Imagine an Icecrown zone with no flight if WoW had never had flight, it would be a much different zone and probably one of the most dangerous areas ever made, even with the "safe" roads to travel.

[SirCowdog]

This isn't vanilla, you know. They've been doing most of that for general-purpose reasons since BC, especially since WoD introduced things like Avianna's Feather which require it anyway. Also, stuff like "making sure there are no holes in the geometry" is sorta laughable. Players betas tend not to spend time mashing themselves against obscure otherwise-inaccessible walls, floors and objects just to see if they fall through. As for phasing, that's far more closely related to the tech itself rather than specific instances of it. Exactly the same thing applies to CRZ.

Flying isn't something that they commit a significant amount of time to testing, and it's outright disingenuous to even suggest that something like flight's release in WoD is a part of the equation. If they wanted to bring flying out quickly, they could do it immediately and fall back on hotfixes for edge cases like they always do.

I"ve spent quite a bit of time gliding around the Broken Isles using goblin gliders and the Emerald Winds toy, as well as the Brulfist Totem before they nerfed it into uselessness. There were a few areas that randomly dismounted me, usually when I was trying to cross large bodies of water, like trying to glide from Dalaran to anywhere, or trying to reach the northern-most island up in the NE corner. I never once was dismounted over land in any of the four major zones.

I'm pretty sure at this point Legion is flight-ready. There might still be some very limited dismounts at random, but I SERIOUSLY doubt there's any major testing or work left to be done. I'd give it a week to prep at most, which is a normal time frame for a new patch to be on the PTR. I suspect that what will take longer is Blizzard trying to decide just how much more stuff they can pile onto the list of requirements.

[Zalamander]

I still firmly believe that Draenor was designed without flight in mind. They communicated that much later into development, but I believe that was the intention from the beginning. That's why it took so long to reimplement - they never really intended it in the first place.

If they are making that 'mistake' again now, then this discussion has far move value in hopes that Blizzard begins to design future content with flight in mind; rather than trying to 'fix, patch in and test' as an afterthought.

No, draenor was surely designed with flight in mind from the start but that decision was halted to make deadlines for other content, most likely the 10y anniversary celebration stuff. Remember they did say flying was coming later in WoD, "6.1 or something", why would they say that if they didn't make the world for flight?
Half way through 6.2 was released and all content was more or less done so they thought they had gotten away with no flight after all and "someone" slipped it out during an interview and all hell broke lose, and here we are today.