Wow needs to become much much harder

[epLe]

Out of curiosity, how many subscribers do you think WoW would have if it was tuned so that the top guilds in the world found it extremely difficult?

Vanilla had way more subscribers than WoD or Legion, 0.01% killed Vanilla KT, against if it was 1% who killed mythic Archi it is still 100 times more.
And this is the "difficulty".

30+ people doesn't add difficulty in the slightest nor does make anything more fun. I'd argue it does the complete opposite. It completely dumbs down individual performance and makes organizing a raid a pain in the ass. More so than it is now.

This is also a blind out of the butt statement, just trying to coordinate 10 vs 40 people is two very different ballgames of difficulty.
Or having a fight where 1 person can wipe the raid, will always be exponentially more difficult with a much larger amount of players.

At last since the difficulty curve always reset each expansion to a lower starting point on the first tier than the previous expansions.
This is just due to making it so "available" that everyone can be pushed through it at the same time - Herd those Lemmings.
Add on top of that streamlining classes, skills, talents, the individual game is dumbified so much the player "skill" is going rapidly down aswell.

[Temp name]

If EN was tuned to be at a point where world first guilds had killed 1-2 bosses right now, literally no one beneath top 2000 would ever get a kill. And that's seriously bad game design. Because at that point, they can't justify the massive amount of time the raids take to make, which means we'll get Dragon Soul again (rehashed models and locations for everything, and very few bosses), or even no raids at all.

- - - Updated - - -

30+ people doesn't add difficulty in the slightest nor does make anything more fun. I'd argue it does the complete opposite. It completely dumbs down individual performance and makes organizing a raid a pain in the ass. More so than it is now.

It adds a different kind of difficulty. Organizational vs mechanical difficulty.

[HordeFanboy]

Yes but blizzard loves Casuals. All blizzard's games are casualfriendly

[CaptainV]

I think blizzard overestimate the competetion element and totally ignore the storyline/fun element , i really dont know how many truly play this game just to see themselves first on wow-progress , to me at least it sounds ridiculous because you are playing against bots , if you put enough effort (play everyday) and you are decent then you are gonna make it obviously, i think most even hardcore raiders play this game for the fun and story element.

Now we are stuck with emerald nightmare for several months , this is a terrible mistake from blizzard , this is NOT a single player game , we cant just see the story in a single day , its ridiculous , the story is a big part behind the motivation of the raider , emerald nightmare is also terribly designed , blizzard treats wow like a single player game where you can see the story in different difficulties and extremely fast , it also gives the option to everyone to have great loot , loot and gold these days are totally meaningless.


Some say vanilla wasnt that hard and i may agree with them but there were other things that made it very hard to raid and achieve fast progress , some bosses took ages to die , casuals and hardcores werent so separated.


In my opinion there should be only one difficulty with a big size requirement 30+people and that difficulty should be harder than current mythic raiding and also the adventure's guide should be burned at hell , people shouldnt ever be spoiled or know anything at all about future bosses and even more so about their mechanics and strategy so it would be a mystery. That way the best guilds would have killed like 1 or 2 at most bosses right now , that way the current content would endure and keep people interested for several months until the release of nighthold.


If they want to make the most out of casuals they dont need to make wow so easy , they can simply do as i said above and increase the size of a raid by aton so a guild would have to take casuals to succeed in its goals , this would also decrease the number of guilds per server and create interesting rivalries , wow right now is a complete shit.

You wanna know what made wow complete shit? WoD.

WoD was exactly what you wanted, a game about hard curve gearing and was completley and utterly unfriendly to casuals because it required insane amount of time investement to even progress a character so you could even "do" mythic in the end.

It wasnt hard in terms of content, but in terms of grinding that content, yes, it was extremely brutal.

You wanna know how that worked out?

-The top mythic guilds struggled to recruit in the end because so few players were left that were even willing to do mythic.

-The game went to its lowest sub number in the history of wow's life time because a large majority of players dont even give a fuck about raiding period.

-There was literally no other end game, and it was boring as all hell.

Conclusion:

No, were never going back to WoD or hardcore raiding for the rest of wow's lifetime, I think blizzard knows oh too well what would happen if they went back on that decision they've made in Legion and in the end? It "would" kill WoW after the amount of damage WoD did.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

If they want to make the most out of casuals they dont need to make wow so easy , they can simply do as i said above and increase the size of a raid by aton so a guild would have to take casuals to succeed in its goals , this would also decrease the number of guilds per server and create interesting rivalries , wow right now is a complete shit.

It's not raid size the keep most casuals out of raiding. Casuals, in general, either can't commit to the time requirements or just don't really want to be in raid teams. They simply want to play the game on their own terms.

Larger raid sizes aren't going to create more raiders. As a matter of fact...Raid participation increased when they dropped the 40 man design and adopted the 25 man system in BC (with a little bit of 10 man love) and even more so in WotLK when they made 10 man a legitimate alternative to 25 man raiding.

[Gibblewink]

Part of the problem with making things harder is that as the top guilds have become better the gap between mathematically impossible and swiftly achievable has gotten very, very narrow. So short of making gear checks that require farming early bosses for weeks, there is simply no way to hold back the best - and that would put the content permanently out of reach for the mere mortals among us.
And no, it is not the adventure guide that makes the top guilds down bosses fast. It really, really isn't.

[SoundOfGuns]

AAaaaaand we are back. Good. Proofs that the Game is doing well if self-proclaimed pros can bitch about difficulty again in such a mundane way.

[Battlebeard]

WoW has many problems but difficulty is not one of them.

At the moment, Emerald Nightmare is actually VERY, VERY unfriendly toward Pugs. If you wish to clear it HC or even Normal, you better get a guild group, as the groups you find in Premade finder are complete disasters. And don't get me started on Mythic raid, that will never happen in a PuG.

Is it too easy for guilds? Hardly, my realm is big and only 1 guild has cleared EN so far.

It's another typical tier, if anything, I want an easier game. Since gearing is a nighmare, let the raids be less gear depending to clear!

[D3athsting]

Ask Carbine what happens when you make a superhardcore mmorpg

[Deleted]

I think blizzard overestimate the competetion element and totally ignore the storyline/fun element , i really dont know how many truly play this game just to see themselves first on wow-progress , to me at least it sounds ridiculous because you are playing against bots , if you put enough effort (play everyday) and you are decent then you are gonna make it obviously, i think most even hardcore raiders play this game for the fun and story element.

Now we are stuck with emerald nightmare for several months , this is a terrible mistake from blizzard , this is NOT a single player game , we cant just see the story in a single day , its ridiculous , the story is a big part behind the motivation of the raider , emerald nightmare is also terribly designed , blizzard treats wow like a single player game where you can see the story in different difficulties and extremely fast , it also gives the option to everyone to have great loot , loot and gold these days are totally meaningless.


Some say vanilla wasnt that hard and i may agree with them but there were other things that made it very hard to raid and achieve fast progress , some bosses took ages to die , casuals and hardcores werent so separated.


In my opinion there should be only one difficulty with a big size requirement 30+people and that difficulty should be harder than current mythic raiding and also the adventure's guide should be burned at hell , people shouldnt ever be spoiled or know anything at all about future bosses and even more so about their mechanics and strategy so it would be a mystery. That way the best guilds would have killed like 1 or 2 at most bosses right now , that way the current content would endure and keep people interested for several months until the release of nighthold.


If they want to make the most out of casuals they dont need to make wow so easy , they can simply do as i said above and increase the size of a raid by aton so a guild would have to take casuals to succeed in its goals , this would also decrease the number of guilds per server and create interesting rivalries , wow right now is a complete shit.

You have no idea about raiding. Nobody wants this shit. Casuals don't want this shit. Raiders don't want this shit. Literally all major populations or demographies of gamers that are active in WoW would just get completely alienated and quit the game.

DIAF with your stupid thinly veiled glorification of 20-year-old design.

[Deleted]

Not sure why some people are so bothered with the speed that the cutting edge guilds clear the raids. The rogue in exorsus that was interviewed by finalboss had four raid ready characters and 24 days(!) played on maxlevel, that is when the game has been out for 5 weeks or so. Just leave those crazy players to have their world first race on their own, it is really of no concern to millions of other players.

[Spiral Mage]

OP seems confused about the playerbase and would make one of the world's worst game designers, IMO.

[Deleted]

Vanilla had way more subscribers than WoD or Legion, 0.01% killed Vanilla KT, against if it was 1% who killed mythic Archi it is still 100 times more. And this is the "difficulty"..

Doesn't mean that it would work - or be successful - nowadays. At all.

[Rascal Bob]

I wonder how many of the difficulty complainers actually have stepped into Mythic EN. I killed the first boss and spider last night, it was pretty hard.

Second with the current mechanic style increasing damage or whatever is just minor, most die because they do mechanics wrong not because the damage was too much or they couldn't kill the boss before the enrage timer which was more the thing in BC. Raids have improved so much over the years there is just no comparison, these raids provide challenge in a way that's fun.

The hardest mechanics on a old raid might just have been the attunements one needed to do to get in.

If you complain about difficulty but haven't done anything serious in mythic+ or EN, get the fuck out.

[Lioo]

I think blizzard overestimate the competetion element and totally ignore the storyline/fun element , i really dont know how many truly play this game just to see themselves first on wow-progress , to me at least it sounds ridiculous because you are playing against bots , if you put enough effort (play everyday) and you are decent then you are gonna make it obviously, i think most even hardcore raiders play this game for the fun and story element.

Now we are stuck with emerald nightmare for several months , this is a terrible mistake from blizzard , this is NOT a single player game , we cant just see the story in a single day , its ridiculous , the story is a big part behind the motivation of the raider , emerald nightmare is also terribly designed , blizzard treats wow like a single player game where you can see the story in different difficulties and extremely fast , it also gives the option to everyone to have great loot , loot and gold these days are totally meaningless.


Some say vanilla wasnt that hard and i may agree with them but there were other things that made it very hard to raid and achieve fast progress , some bosses took ages to die , casuals and hardcores werent so separated.


In my opinion there should be only one difficulty with a big size requirement 30+people and that difficulty should be harder than current mythic raiding and also the adventure's guide should be burned at hell , people shouldnt ever be spoiled or know anything at all about future bosses and even more so about their mechanics and strategy so it would be a mystery. That way the best guilds would have killed like 1 or 2 at most bosses right now , that way the current content would endure and keep people interested for several months until the release of nighthold.


If they want to make the most out of casuals they dont need to make wow so easy , they can simply do as i said above and increase the size of a raid by aton so a guild would have to take casuals to succeed in its goals , this would also decrease the number of guilds per server and create interesting rivalries , wow right now is a complete shit.

Okay, now link me your Cutting Edge and M+15 achievements.

[Lochton]

I think blizzard overestimate the competetion element and totally ignore the storyline/fun element , i really dont know how many truly play this game just to see themselves first on wow-progress , to me at least it sounds ridiculous because you are playing against bots , if you put enough effort (play everyday) and you are decent then you are gonna make it obviously, i think most even hardcore raiders play this game for the fun and story element.

Now we are stuck with emerald nightmare for several months , this is a terrible mistake from blizzard , this is NOT a single player game , we cant just see the story in a single day , its ridiculous , the story is a big part behind the motivation of the raider , emerald nightmare is also terribly designed , blizzard treats wow like a single player game where you can see the story in different difficulties and extremely fast , it also gives the option to everyone to have great loot , loot and gold these days are totally meaningless.


Some say vanilla wasnt that hard and i may agree with them but there were other things that made it very hard to raid and achieve fast progress , some bosses took ages to die , casuals and hardcores werent so separated.


In my opinion there should be only one difficulty with a big size requirement 30+people and that difficulty should be harder than current mythic raiding and also the adventure's guide should be burned at hell , people shouldnt ever be spoiled or know anything at all about future bosses and even more so about their mechanics and strategy so it would be a mystery. That way the best guilds would have killed like 1 or 2 at most bosses right now , that way the current content would endure and keep people interested for several months until the release of nighthold.


If they want to make the most out of casuals they dont need to make wow so easy , they can simply do as i said above and increase the size of a raid by aton so a guild would have to take casuals to succeed in its goals , this would also decrease the number of guilds per server and create interesting rivalries , wow right now is a complete shit.

*laughs*

I can't help it, I have to laugh. Would be nice to see it harder, but with a player base complaining about too little to do, then complaining about too much to do. Then complaining about things they feel forced to do, even though optional. I don't think we're going to see tougher days.


Oh, and don't go so low and blame all this on 'casuals'.

[Vampiregenesis]

I wonder how many of the difficulty complainers actually have stepped into Mythic EN. I killed the first boss and spider last night, it was pretty hard.

Second with the current mechanic style increasing damage or whatever is just minor, most die because they do mechanics wrong not because the damage was too much or they couldn't kill the boss before the enrage timer which was more the thing in BC. Raids have improved so much over the years there is just no comparison, these raids provide challenge in a way that's fun.

The hardest mechanics on a old raid might just have been the attunements one needed to do to get in.

If you complain about difficulty but haven't done anything serious in mythic+ or EN, get the fuck out.

ok lets say i agree , they should remove lfr normall heroic at least and make mythic a 40+ person raid , as many wise posters stated vanilla bosses lasted the longest yet the subscribers were far more that what they are now and if you think that this system wouldnt work today then why so many cry about the closing of nostalrius? you are clearly on the wrong side , you seem to pick on wildstar as an example why my idea would fail , wildstar wasnt difficult , it was abnormall and terribly designed game without a lore without anything , there have been MANY mmos exactly like current wow and they all failed for the same reasons , they were badly designed and didnt offer as much as wow could so the difficulty is clearly not the issue here because if that was the case then all the other mmos besides wildstar who had similar raiding system to current wow would succeed but guess what THEY DIDNT and if you want another opinion too , wow is the one who is actually dying and is almost f2p , oh yeah thats right , guess why? 67k gold mean absolutely nothing and are farmable EASILY in 1-2 days , i doubt any serious player actually pay for his wow time.


For those who ask about my armory , i will keep that hidden for privacy purposes , i have raided en hc and it was fairly easy , i have also done +8 mythics and they were fairly easy with decent group , in fact my group wasnt even decent since one player was afking , im also gladiator and thats one of the most difficult things to achieve , more difficult than killing a mythic boss on a raid , there are successfull pvers who cant even surpass 1500 rating , so stop talking to me about difficulty ,im not judging you here and im not saying that difficulty is the sole problem , the problem is that you see the content aka raid or call it story if you want way too fast and then you get bored for several months , no im not talking about the challenge , im talking purely for the story and the raid.


Also one more thing , people say 40 people raids are tedious and not challenging , if thats the case then why not make raiding to scale up to a single player? actually wow raiding is hard not because the AI is hard but because you have to use advanced teamplay , AIs are predictable , once you learn their patterns you will never fail and you can just farm them until they are dead so the hard part IS the raid sizing and the teamplay which means with less people the raids have become easier and not harder and therefore less challenging.

[Eleccybubb]

ok lets say i agree , they should remove lfr normall heroic at least and make mythic a 40+ person raid , as many wise posters stated vanilla bosses lasted the longest yet the subscribers were far more that what they are now and if you think that this system wouldnt work today then why so many cry about the closing of nostalrius? you are clearly on the wrong side , you seem to pick on wildstar as an example why my idea would fail , wildstar wasnt difficult , it was abnormall and terribly designed game without a lore without anything , there have been MANY mmos exactly like current wow and they all failed for the same reasons , they were badly designed and didnt offer as much as wow could so the difficulty is clearly not the issue here because if that was the case then all the other mmos besides wildstar who had similar raiding system to current wow would succeed but guess what THEY DIDNT and if you want another opinion too , wow is the one who is actually dying and is almost f2p , oh yeah thats right , guess why? 67k gold mean absolutely nothing and are farmable EASILY in 1-2 days , i doubt any serious player actually pay for his wow time.


For those who ask about my armory , i will keep that hidden for privacy purposes , i have raided en hc and it was fairly easy , i have also done +8 mythics and they were fairly easy with decent group , in fact my group wasnt even decent since one player was afking , im also gladiator and thats one of the most difficult things to achieve , more difficult than killing a mythic boss on a raid , there are successfull pvers who cant even surpass 1500 rating , so stop talking to me about difficulty ,im not judging you here and im not saying that difficulty is the sole problem , the problem is that you see the content aka raid or call it story if you want way too fast and then you get bored for several months , no im not talking about the challenge , im talking purely for the story and the raid.


Also one more thing , people say 40 people raids are tedious and not challenging , if thats the case then why not make raiding to scale up to a single player? actually wow raiding is hard not because the AI is hard but because you have to use advanced teamplay , AIs are predictable , once you learn their patterns you will never fail and you can just farm them until they are dead so the hard part IS the raid sizing and the teamplay which means with less people the raids have become easier and not harder and therefore less challenging.

Vanilla bosses last the longest because they were new and had resistance gating so until you actually had specific gear you weren't downing it. Not because they were hard. And if you are refusing to show your armory yet claim content is easy then we have no actual way of believing you other than word of mouth. So again link us your 7/7 Mythic, plus 10 keystone at least and other past achievements otherwise no cigar.

[Sansnom]

Vanilla had way more subscribers than WoD or Legion, 0.01% killed Vanilla KT, against if it was 1% who killed mythic Archi it is still 100 times more.
And this is the "difficulty".

It is not entirely accurate to compare like that. Several factors needs to be considered then and now.

First, many players were at max level during last raid tier. If, for example, 50% of the subs were still leveling during that time, they should not be included in the "how many players killed x".

Second, of the % players at max level, how many were raiding?

Finally, to compare more accurately, we should only compare how many raiders killed X, since that is the closest to determine the difficulty of the raiding environment.

Do we have any of the those figures? I do not think. The only figures available that I am aware is how subs there were.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Someone without a clue about what constitutes challenging gameplay. Glad said person has no say in the game.

Just another thinly veiled "I'm angry that the Legacy server hype is dying down!!!!!!1"-post and low postcount posters doing what they do best... Bitch about how Classic was this pinnacle of challenging gameplay based on laughable levels of misinformation and rose-tinted goggle effects.