No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Deadite]

I'm just here for the casual conversation and to see what new lies the extremists will perpetuate. It amazes me the crap pro-fliers will say just to convince themselves, and Blizz, that there is a mass exodus coming and we need flight

Your side are the fanatics. You want to deny people flying when you can just choose not to fly. You can be immersed upto your eyeballs with like minded folk. If most people prefer no flying then very few will go airborne right? It that the fantasy you envisage? No you know the truth of the matter. Everyone will hit that flying mount as soon as they can. The first in line will be all you guy crying about flying ruining the game somehow. Flying is just better.

[Dhrizzle]

Your side are the fanatics. You want to deny people flying when you can just choose not to fly. You can be immersed upto your eyeballs with like minded folk. If most people prefer no flying then very few will go airborne right? It that the fantasy you envisage? No you know the truth of the matter. Everyone will hit that flying mount as soon as they can. The first in line will be all you guy crying about flying ruining the game somehow. Flying is just better.

Blizzard understand that most gamers will use the tools available to complete the content/get the rewards in the quickest/most efficient way they can. If flight is available then Blizzard have to pace the content under the assumption that players will use flight, otherwise the flying players will run out of things to do too quickly and complain about a lack of content. This means non-flying players will be progressing slower than Blizzard intended and, as the devs prefer designing content to be tackled from the ground, they have kept flight from everyone to ensure a level playing field.

[rda]

So far Cata, MoP and WoD have all seen the game shrink and reduce significantly (at an average of 100k per month,) I don't see any expansion causing a reversal in this pattern. I don't consider that a "failure" considering every MMO has had a similar life cycle on a much smaller scale and I think it's pretty naive to expect a game to last over a decade without losing popularity.

Also I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from but the first half of MoP did not make the game stable or grow. Like WoD, MoP lost all of its new-expansion boost within 6 months and then some, levelling out sometime around the last of the new content (the no-fly islands) before dropping g again sometime during the drought.

I should have expanded what I meant to say with "like the first half of MoP". I agree they lost subs in MoP, I meant that if they tried and made Legion more like MoP (but better, long talk) and also made sure there is no year of nothing in the end, then perhaps they would have gained subs in the course of the entire expansion. I agree that the graph for MoP shows most of the losses before the year of nothing, too, but I think that's because they promised earth and moon with Draenor and that's why they didn't lose more.

I agree it's normal to have a peak at launch time which declines somewhat after, but please compare the declines for MoP and for WoD - the WoD one is much bigger and much faster. I think Legion is more like WoD than MoP in this respect (although nobody is going to have any numbers, because they decided not to publish them anymore).

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If you knew how to read a graph, you would see there is still MORE activity in Legion without flight than there was in Draenor with flight. Thanks for sharing this. Only furthers the proof that Legion is a success and flight is not necessary at this time.

There's more activity in the first months of Legion without flight than there was in the last year of Draenor with flight, yes. Apparently, you are concluding from that (a) that Legion is a success, and (b) that flying is not important. OK.

(ROFL)

[Mafic]

This whole idea that they removed flight to give themselves less work is just daft. For a start they have to build out the world just as much as they normally would because at some point you ARE actually going to be flying around it, so they can't cut any corners there. And the quests they make for people to do are far more complicated and more involved than they would need to be if you could just fly straight to the objective and fly out again. They also put way more work into the terrain and all the paths up mountains and that sort of thing than they have in the past when you've had flying available, because if you have flying available that stuff is not needed.

If they really were trying to be lazy and cut back on the amount of work, they'd leave flying in and make every quest a "go to this point and kill/collect this thing then fly back to me". It's actually much more work for them doing things the way they are now. So whether you love it or hate it, the argument that it's some evil plan to do less work and milk more money out of people is utter nonsense.

Over time I have seen that it takes more work for Blizzard to test flying, because they have to test it on current new expansion continent and new features like CRZ. Testing takes up time instead of developing "new stuff". Another example is class balancing in WoD/Legion where they cut corners and say for a later date they will address it all. Holinka has said as much about how to balance PVP templae when players start to obtain higher ilevels on weapon artifacts later in the expansion.

They are kicking the can down the road like WoD with Legion (in before someone tells me this is different lol), because they do not have the will power to do it right now to test flight. Blizz does not think it is important to test right now flying because they think more instanced content will keep players engaged and more legendary RNG grinds. I would go as far as to say they probably didn't think they should even test flight in WoD, because they probably decided early on they would have no flying forever but chose to break the news a "safe" six months later post launch hoping players would accept it.

According to Blizz they were "undecided" but given they didn't test flight in WoD beta (first time that has EVER happened) it was obvious from us beta testers early in they were not serious about it. Legion is not different as it is the second expansion in a row where they did not have flight available for testing to the public. Remember Legion alpha started in Nov of 2015 and the alpha/beta period went all the way to summer of 2016.

Blizzard is dragging their feet with testing a feature like flight for 6+ months of testing and my expectation they meet their "mid expansion" deadline isn't too hot right now given their poor recent track record.

[FelPlague]

You could "fly" anywhere in Draenor with Aviana's feather and it still wasn't ready for flying. So just because you can fall slowly does not mean flying will work.

I've already experienced the content, I would like to fly in the zones we have now. When/if they release new zones, we can unlock flying in them by doing about the same thing. Having to wait for a patch, then do a months worth of dailies, then wait for another patch just to fly in the standard zones is not good enough, and not a good reason why we can't fly now. They have always added new zones without flying in the past, no reason they can't stagger flying for each new release.

yes but the issue with the feather was in wod you would hit random invis walls and weird shapes in the sky, it was horrible, we see none of that in legion

[rda]

yes but the issue with the feather was in wod you would hit random invis walls and weird shapes in the sky, it was horrible, we see none of that in legion

The first time I heard about issues with the feather was from the dev blog talking about them and about the delay with the return of flying. I don't think you can say that the situation with Legion is different.

[FelPlague]

The first time I heard about issues with the feather was from the dev blog talking about them and about the delay with the return of flying. I don't think you can say that the situation with Legion is different.

legion was made with flying in mind, the skybox is fixed, therre isnt any weird invisable walls, and trust me ive tried, if you pair
Glider
Emerald winds
and Gnomish Gravity well

you can actuallty fly, as you can lift yourself up with the gravity well and emerald winds back and forth

[rda]

legion was made with flying in mind, the skybox is fixed, therre isnt any weird invisable walls, and trust me ive tried, if you pair
Glider
Emerald winds
and Gnomish Gravity well

you can actuallty fly, as you can lift yourself up with the gravity well and emerald winds back and forth

WoD was made with flying in mind as well. It's just that their testing was subpar. I have no reason at all to suppose that testing for Legion is better.

(I mean, I get that you personally think Legion is passing the tests better, but you just don't have the data, your personal experience is a far cry for what real testing is. No offense, but you just don't have the tools.)

[MasterHamster]

What pro-fliers want: They want their definition of fun. They want to mount up, fly over terrain and mobs, land at their goal, do what needs to be done, and fly away. Their claim is they will have MORE fun consuming what they have already labeled and crappy content simply because they can fly. This tells me they don't care if content is good or bad as long as they can pull a dragon from their ass and skip the parts they hate.

At this point I think nearly every single aspect of WoW has been trashtalked in this thread in order to prove a point about flight. It's fairly amusing.
Mob scaling is bad, WQs are bad, zones are small and dull, bla bla
Alright, so is flight nothing but a way for people to "suffer less" from world content that is apparently so awful?

Meanwhile, outside of this petty echochamber, the game is more alive than it has been in years, and flight or no flight is of no significant importance as long as people find themselves having things to do. But that doesn't fit well into the narrative.

[rda]

At this point I think nearly every single aspect of WoW has been trashtalked in this thread in order to prove a point about flight. It's fairly amusing.
Mob scaling is bad, WQs are bad, zones are small and dull, bla bla
Alright, so is flight nothing but a way for people to "suffer less" from world content that is apparently so awful?

Meanwhile, outside of this petty echochamber, the game is more alive than it has been in years, and flight or no flight is of no significant importance as long as people find themselves having things to do. But that doesn't fit well into the narrative.

Mob scaling is fine if flying is there. Mob scaling gets in the way if flying is not there. Etc, not sure what's so hard to understand.

As to the game being more alive than it has been in years, look at the activity graph on the previous page. Let's look at it again in 6 months or so, too.

[FelPlague]

WoD was made with flying in mind as well. It's just that their testing was subpar. I have no reason at all to suppose that testing for Legion is better.

(I mean, I get that you personally think Legion is passing the tests better, but you just don't have the data, your personal experience is a far cry for what real testing is. No offense, but you just don't have the tools.)

uhh no wod was not made with flying in mind, and being able to jump off mountains and not hit awkward invisible walls, is what wod had, and what they had to fix

there is literally hard evidence of this all, from back on the 6.2 PTR, where flying was enabled, before the skybox was fixed...

[TyrianFC]

Mob scaling is fine if flying is there. Mob scaling gets in the way if flying is not there. Etc, not sure what's so hard to understand.

As to the game being more alive than it has been in years, look at the activity graph on the previous page. Let's look at it again in 6 months or so, too.

Hes not talking about 6 months from now - hes talking about now. And hes right, the game is more alive than it has been in years.


PS - the activity graph (which we have no way to show is actually accurate btw) backs this up for its timeframe. Funny how you've conveniently ignored that observation...

[rda]

Hes not talking about 6 months from now - hes talking about now. And hes right, the game is more alive than it has been in years.


PS - the activity graph (which we have no way to show is actually accurate btw) backs this up for its timeframe. Funny how you've conveniently ignored that observation...

Then what you two are proud of is that Legion two months after launch feels more active than WoD felt in its last year when it had nothing.

I mean, yes, you are right, but if you think that's something worth boasting, I am laughing. :-)

[TyrianFC]

Then what you two are proud of is that Legion two months after launch feels more active than WoD felt in its last year when it had nothing.

I mean, yes, you are right, but if you think that's something worth boasting, I am laughing. :-)

Funny you're laughing, because I'm also laughing at how you linked a graph showing that *Gasp* activity spikes at the release of a new expansion and *gasp* activity declines after the initial rush. Shock, horror news at 11. Then *lol* attempt to use these 'revelations' in the thread to further your pro-flying agenda. Where would we be without captain obvious to find these newsworthy revelations to link to us.

Please keep the graph handy for when the next expansion hits, I have a controversial suspicion it will *Gasp* look similar.

[rda]

uhh no wod was not made with flying in mind, and being able to jump off mountains and not hit awkward invisible walls, is what wod had, and what they had to fix

there is literally hard evidence of this all, from back on the 6.2 PTR, where flying was enabled, before the skybox was fixed...

Here's a blue post from Lore:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/3...ymore/#post461

Quoting:

(the post Lore answers: ) "-the rest are not flying compatible and have 2d jpg mountains -now you know why shamans had far sight and hunters had eagle vision removed."
(Lore's answer: ) "False. Every zone is built to be capable of flying, and I have no idea where you're getting "2d jpg mountains" from. Also, Far Sight and Eagle Eye were not removed."

Yes, later, when it came to turning flying on, it became apparent that they skimmed on testing here and there. But it looks like this was just someone being lazy to test.

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Funny you're laughing, because I'm also laughing at how you linked a graph showing that *Gasp* activity spikes at the release of a new expansion and *gasp* activity declines after the initial rush. Shock, horror news at 11. Then *lol* attempt to use these 'revelations' in the thread to further your pro-flying agenda. Where would we be without captain obvious to find these newsworthy revelations to link to us.

Please keep the graph handy for when the next expansion hits, I have a controversial suspicion it will *Gasp* look similar.

I linked the graph to show that half of the activity added by the launch of Legion already went away.

It's only not shocking compared to WoD. If you compare to other expansions, the decline was way smaller / slower.

Let's laugh together.

[Ordinator]

I linked the graph to show that half of the activity added by the launch of Legion already went away.

It's only not shocking compared to WoD. If you compare to other expansions, the decline was way smaller / slower.

Let's laugh together.

Can you link previous expansions activity charts?

[Thimagryn]

What? The problem with flight is still exactly the same as it was in Legion: It's being withheld until it has almost no value.

I agree. As dire as the situation was for WoD, the catalyst for player upheaval was really the announcement of no-flight. People will undoubtedly be unsubbing in months coming through Legion, but that's an eventuality that Blizzard's already well prepared for. What they're banking on is sustaining the casual fanbase, and as long as there is a promise that flight is coming, the majority will remain patient. That's not saying the issue is gone, but it's saying you won't see the overwhelming support from all sides as you did last year. It ends up in Blizzard's favour since they can remain silent on the issue without any major repercussions. Just being real here.

Which is why I keep trying to point out the flaws with Pathfinder. It's only a good system for Blizzard, not the players. The amount of value that flight gives in "reward" for the amount of work required is waaaaaaay off. Throwing in requirements that have nothing to do with the open world isn't all that great either. Frankly, I'm surprised Blizzard hasn't tacked on Arena or Battleground objectives yet. Maybe we'll see those in part 2.

I think Pathfinder is the right direction, but definitely needs to be polished. I think the criticism that it requires so much non-flight requisites is completely valid. What does killing Xavius have to do with flight? Raiding wouldn't have been prevented by having flight anyways.

As I said before, Pathfinder in Legion is just as bad as it was in WoD. I agree that it's not the end of the world, and over-exaggerating either side of the argument isn't helpful. But I really do get tired of people downplaying what a shit "compromise" Pathfinder is.

I think it was you, Thimagryn, that said you wish they'd just come out and make a solid decision on flying. If they're going to remove it, they should stop beating around the bush and just do it, and stop with this pathfinder nonsense and all the gimmick toys in an attempt to mitigate the loss. Or if they're going to include flying at all, they really should make it at LEAST as good as it was in previous patches. Or better, step up and do what Blizzard is known for: Innovating and making improvements on existing features.

This disingenuous, half-measure approach to flight, and being completely silent on the issue needs to stop.

I totally agree. I think they need to be fully aware that what they're doing now is a half-measure. At the same time, I don't know if they'll ever reach that decision; as much as I think they should. The risk they take alienating all pro-flight just to stick to their design decision was already apparant in WoD. I don't even know why they bothered carrying that same philosophy into Legion. I completely understand their reasoning for wanting to improve the WoD no-flight experience but this current situation is a half-assed solution. Having both an achievement gate and a time gate is simply too much. The fact that it's being so poorly communicated doesn't help.

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What pro-fliers want: They want their definition of fun. They want to mount up, fly over terrain and mobs, land at their goal, do what needs to be done, and fly away. Their claim is they will have MORE fun consuming what they have already labeled and crappy content simply because they can fly. This tells me they don't care if content is good or bad as long as they can pull a dragon from their ass and skip the parts they hate.

And this is also why you want flight then? Since you say you are also pro-flight, would you agree that this is the reason you want flight as well?

[rda]

Can you link previous expansions activity charts?

WotLK (from Nov):



Cata (from Jan on the left):



MoP's shape is similar to WoD. I admit I got that wrong, I stand corrected:



The point stands - the declines in MoP / WoD / Legion are very fast compared to the declines in earlier expansions.

[TyrianFC]

Hmm lets think, rda, you're saying that the declines for the most recent (4th 5th and 6th) expansions for an ~11year old game are more pronounced than the declines experienced for the first few expansions in its initial few years. Hmm.... I wonder why. I wonder what sort of factors could contribute to this. I think you might have stumbled onto another dramatic revelation here.

[rda]

Hmm lets think, rda, you're saying that the declines for the most recent (4th 5th and 6th) expansions for an ~11year old game are more pronounced than the declines experienced for the first few expansions in its initial few years. Hmm.... I wonder why. I wonder what sort of factors could contribute to this.

Bad decisions from the developers.

There's no hidden time switch which makes everything decline. Or rather, there is one, but it only works if you are bad at improving the product. (Ford cars somehow continue to sell as they modify them. Apparently you think this stops working for games. Well, it doesn't.)