What's wrong with mythic+

[Deleted]

it seems that the current focus in high end PvE content, mostly M+ but some raid stuff as well, is focused around trash packs rather than boss fights, which is kind of sad.

now, this isn't to say that we need to go back to WotLK levels of "pull everything that's not nailed to the floor and drop a train on it" in between bosses, but the pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.

as it stands now, killing trash packs in higher level M+ dungeons actually requires more from people than most of the boss fights, which seems backwards from a design perspective.

the whole concept of M+ dungeons seems decent, but poorly executed at best.

i would have much rather seen the bosses grow stronger/more difficult as the level of M+ through the use of new mechanics, perhaps randomized weekly like the current system, than an increases in trash pack difficulty, which we have now.

on a personal note, i would have preferred to seen M+ and challenge mode dungeons separate instead of having a timer on M+, it feels like an unnecessarily enforced artificial increase in difficulty. (kindof like how some games have a new game + mode that doesn't add anything except increasing the health pools and damage modifiers of the enemies a little.)

Importance of trash and it's current handling with timed runs is also my biggest concern with that design. I was very active in BC heroics back then, and these also had hard trash, but we handled it totally different - CC and priority focus instead of aoe stuns + aoe. I wonder why CC is not used anymore, although it's much easier to do now because you don't pull anymore when sheeping or sapping and more classes have some kind of CC now. I guess, the timed run design works against a CC approach where you kill trash mobs one by one. :/

[caervek]

So you have no clue what you're talking about and are in no position to comment on the current state of dungeons.

If you had read more than four words you would have seen he was asking a question.

[Osmeric]

The big problem is that Blizzard attempted to save time/effort by merging CM and Mythic dungeons, despite them being at odds. The fact CM favoured some classes over others was never a major issue as it gave no gear, however now that it's been merged into mythics (which were implemented as an alternative to raiding) it is causing issues.

The bigger issue is Blizzard devs continuing to warp the design of the game to cater to the 5%.

[caervek]

The bigger issue is Blizzard devs continuing to warp the design of the game to cater to the 5%.

I dunno, I think Legion is a lot less raid or die than WoD was.

[Thelin]

I get your point OP but there aren't many ways to punish a DPS. Sure you could make mobs cast void or something where a DPS is standing but that in turn just affects healers who have to heal more if they sit in it.

You could impose reflect damage periodically but that would hurt the tank and healers as well.

If you punish the DPS the only real way to do that would be to nerf their damage output briefly due to a debuff or something which isn't very exciting. As a tank I completely get what you're saying because it is much more challenging for the tank and healer but I just can't think of anything that could be done to purely just affect the DPS class outside of nerfing dmg output periodically.

[kennytheone]

once tier sets become available and ilvl increases these m+ will get easier and easier and bosses don't need extra mechanics since atm some hit like train

[Thelin]

I dunno, I think Legion is a lot less raid or die than WoD was.

it certainly is. Since people still see items/ilvl as a reward and a type of progression, the fact that you can get titanforge procs off WQ's should be validation of that fact that its much easier and certainly not just raid or die. You can potentially get an 895 item from making wine in suramar for christ sake.

[Deleted]

I love the fact that a lot of the replies are from people who clearly haven't actually set foot in mythic+, but then again what would you expect from a blatant bait thread as per usual

Tanks and healers always have it hard, thats why the ILVL requirement for groups asking for dps is always going to be higher

supply/demand/more chance of retards

[Socialhealer]

I never done Mythic+

we should stop reading there shouldn't we.

an armchair expert has appeared oh yay.

small advice, try mythic+ 10 HoV on hyrja, then ask for it to have more mechanics, then tell me TBC was 20 times harder.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Necrotic is the only thing you need to kite consistently.
If you are dying that quickly you are undergeared or need to learn how to use your active mitigation and CDs.

Not to say you can't complete 10s undergeared. You just likely need to hard CC targets.

[Sarevokcz]

it seems that the current focus in high end PvE content, mostly M+ but some raid stuff as well, is focused around trash packs rather than boss fights, which is kind of sad.

now, this isn't to say that we need to go back to WotLK levels of "pull everything that's not nailed to the floor and drop a train on it" in between bosses, but the pendulum has swung a bit to far in the other direction.

as it stands now, killing trash packs in higher level M+ dungeons actually requires more from people than most of the boss fights, which seems backwards from a design perspective.

the whole concept of M+ dungeons seems decent, but poorly executed at best.

i would have much rather seen the bosses grow stronger/more difficult as the level of M+ through the use of new mechanics, perhaps randomized weekly like the current system, than an increases in trash pack difficulty, which we have now.

on a personal note, i would have preferred to seen M+ and challenge mode dungeons separate instead of having a timer on M+, it feels like an unnecessarily enforced artificial increase in difficulty. (kindof like how some games have a new game + mode that doesn't add anything except increasing the health pools and damage modifiers of the enemies a little.)

bosses do get harder with some affixes, necrotic is not pretty on some, while tyranical is batshit crazy on others. maybe third suffix to rotate, that would add something extra other than damage to bosses would be interesting, but it takes time to implement stuff like that, there ar what, 40 bosses overall? and you would want to come up with new, compelling, dangerous mechanic, that could scale with some other echanics in the m+? not an easy task.

Like I could imagine affix, where all bosses get one ability from the last boss of the instance, while last gets two of the previous ones, possibly chosen randomly out of the pool and you possibly wouldnt know before pull which one they get, but it would be hard to balance, some bosses would be still trivial and some would be broken beyond belief

[Marhault]

I never done Mythic+ but do Bosses not get additional mechanics or anything but a HP boost? Cause that's stupid... If their aim was to bosot Dungeons and have them be relevant they've failed. Bosses should be more tough and complex. TBC's dungeon bosses remain the hardest to do In WoW history. So hard people asked them to be nerfed, and then we got nerfed Wrath dungeon bosses... don't nerf them, It's hard. It's suppose to be a challange, we're just adventurers not travelling gods of war.

TBC's bosses were only hard because they were poorly tuned, thus doing a lot higher damage than they should. We completed a M11 yesterday in DHT and the Nightmare Bolt from Xavius was almost one-shotting our mage due to Tyrannical. I can imagine at 15 that it would if he didn't have some kind of damage reduction on it. Commenting without having done it is just foolish.

As for the op topic, not sure what level you've gotten to and maybe it's more applicable after M11, but the only time I've had to kite was on fights like the mini-boss in Maw before Helya or the blobs at the start of Arcway with Necrotic because the stacks get too high really fast or if we failed (and it is we, not just the dps) at killing targets effectively for bolstering. Even then, it takes a lot of stacks for that to be required as each bolster is only 20% compared to 100% from Raging. But in my view, dungeons are about a combination of the trash and the bosses.

[Deleted]

bosses do get harder with some affixes, necrotic is not pretty on some, while tyranical is batshit crazy on others. maybe third suffix to rotate, that would add something extra other than damage to bosses would be interesting, but it takes time to implement stuff like that, there ar what, 40 bosses overall? and you would want to come up with new, compelling, dangerous mechanic, that could scale with some other echanics in the m+? not an easy task.

Like I could imagine affix, where all bosses get one ability from the last boss of the instance, while last gets two of the previous ones, possibly chosen randomly out of the pool and you possibly wouldnt know before pull which one they get, but it would be hard to balance, some bosses would be still trivial and some would be broken beyond belief

some bosses do indeed get harder with certain affixes.
however, right now there are 8(10) affixes in total.
1 of which only directly effects the healer/healing.
4(5) of which directly impact bosses. (one could argue its 3(4) on bosses like helya or odyn since they never get to 30% HP)
7(8) of them directly effect trash mobs.

this makes it seem there's a lot more focus on trash mobs instead of boss fights, which makes me feel a little disappointed if anything.

now, i realize that implementing something to change things now would take quite some time, probably more so than tweaking what is currently there.
so i won't advocate or argue that we need it changed drastically.
i'm mainly wondering why the devs opted to go for what we currently have over other alternative.
what made this a better/more appealing system, design wise, instead of anything else?
and what would some of their other options have been?

[Marhault]

some bosses do indeed get harder with certain affixes.
however, right now there are 8(10) affixes in total.
1 of which only directly effects the healer/healing.
4(5) of which directly impact bosses. (one could argue its 3(4) on bosses like helya or odyn since they never get to 30% HP)
7(8) of them directly effect trash mobs.

this makes it seem there's a lot more focus on trash mobs instead of boss fights, which makes me feel a little disappointed if anything.

now, i realize that implementing something to change things now would take quite some time, probably more so than tweaking what is currently there.
so i won't advocate or argue that we need it changed drastically.
i'm mainly wondering why the devs opted to go for what we currently have over other alternative.
what made this a better/more appealing system, design wise, instead of anything else?
and what would some of their other options have been?

It's only 3, and Tyrannical, for bosses. Bosses don't have Raging as a mechanic so none are affected sub-30%.

As this is a replacement for Challenge Modes and is being timed for it to have a challenge, it needs to have a lot of focus on the trash mobs imo.

[Marston]

we should stop reading there shouldn't we.

an armchair expert has appeared oh yay.

small advice, try mythic+ 10 HoV on hyrja, then ask for it to have more mechanics, then tell me TBC was 20 times harder.

Don't have to go that far. Court of Stars endboss without overgearing or some of the lower DPS speccs. Have fun.

[Socialhealer]

Don't have to go that far. Court of Stars endboss without overgearing or some of the lower DPS speccs. Have fun.

yeh and make sure it's tyrannical :P

[Sinyc]

The biggest problem with this is that it means some classes are simply overpowered for M+ and some classes are simply worthless, and to add insult to insult Blizzard have said they are perfectly fine with some classes being op/bad at different things so have no intention to address it.

IMO M+ should never have had timers, the amount of loot should have been RNG (like any instance) but buffed by the difficulty completed, not dictated by how many OP classes you can stack and how many dungeon exploits you can figure out.

Got a source for Blizzard saying that about some classes being bad at certain things while others will shine?

Also what dungeon exploits are being used in Mythic+?

[Marhault]

Got a source for Blizzard saying that about some classes being bad at certain things while others will shine?

Also what dungeon exploits are being used in Mythic+?

I would assume he's calling trash skips being exploits, as I'm not aware of any exploit specifically for any of the dungeons. As for his source, again I would imagine he's using the statement from the Dev Q&A where they said it was okay for classes to have strengths and weaknesses which isn't quite the same as being op/bad imo.

[Deleted]

Its called, blizzard is out of ideas and just throwing everything into the game they can.

What should they do? Have ideas and no put them into the game? ...what? You make no sense. We're just coming of 18 months of no content. I'm happy they're stuffing the game with everything they cane.

I can understand being salty - but M+ is fine as it is. It's the first iteration - if you want them to improve - writing constructive feedback is far better than being salty here.

[Marhault]

Yeah play whatever class is the flavour of the month. Don't bother playing class you find fun and actually trying to enjoy a video game

Every class will eventually be able to do it with gear. However if you're wanting to push it, yeah you'll have to pick a class that's stronger at that stage. Mythic progress raids that are really pushing it (top 20) will not bring classes that don't work. But US top 200? They can likely bring whatever because at that point it doesn't really matter. They will have more gear doing the same content because it took them longer to get through it. It'll still be possible before it's no longer current.