question to Computer Science professionals

[BrerBear]

I think you are going to have a tough time if this is your real attitude towards programming. I have been a software developer (and now the lead architect of a company I co-own) for almost 20 years. I remember being in high school programming with my friends in C++. We were trying to build a game (duh) and it was all we ever talked about. We were not good but that didn't stop us. We weren't trying to make a game to sell, we just wanted to make a game. Programming is about being able to create things - the money you gain is just an aside. At least that is how I feel about it.

I have worked with many programmers who were just in it for the money. They would show up at work on time and leave on time. If they were in the middle of a problem and it was time to go home, then they just stopped working and left. I don't understand that attitude. I have missed many nights of sleep because of a bug I encountered that I just had to find and fix. Or because I made a breakthrough on a problem and I wanted to run with it for a few hours while it was fresh in my mind. I understand people have families and sometimes your time is constrained (I have a 1-year old now myself so I get it) but most of these people had no such restraints. They just didn't care. Programming was just a paycheck, and their craft invariably suffered for it. I'm sure there are brilliant programmers out there who don't really like to program, but I've never met one.

If money is your motivation, I suggest finding another career. Find something you actually enjoy doing. If you do stick with this plan then for the love of god never say in an interview that money is your motivation. I have hired quite a few people in my career, it is pretty easy to pinpoint people who program for a living VS people who program as a passion. Guess which ones get hired. Learn to love it or learn to fake it.

This is the best reply in the thread.

I've also graduated with CS many years ago and spent a career programming and working my way to VP level in some big companies. Hired many a fresh graduate like you.

There are millions of CS grads being churned out of middle rate schools. Very few really want to program. For those that excel, a degree is not a necessity, and usually it just teaches good techniques. But the good ones have a passion for it without being pressured. They will keep up with the latest tech, think about code in their free time, and just generally perform many times better than everyone else.

The request for an existing portfolio isn't just to show that you have experience. It's because people who are good programmers will be doing it whether or not they are being paid! A good hiring manager can spot the bullshitters.

As Ryk said, think carefully about your career here. You can also take your programming skills and apply them to other fields you might care about more, so it's not a lost cause. But re:gaming, I will also say that I worked with veteran game programmers, and the general perception is that game careers is some of the hardest and least rewarding; every employer knows there are 10 people willing to step into your role, so they pay less and demand more.

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I should also add, if you are considering grad school, you might think about studying something else that you are passionate about but which has software application. Many industries would value a person who knows their industry and also software.

[Kreeshak]

This is the best reply in the thread.

I've also graduated with CS many years ago and spent a career programming and working my way to VP level in some big companies. Hired many a fresh graduate like you.

There are millions of CS grads being churned out of middle rate schools. Very few really want to program. For those that excel, a degree is not a necessity, and usually it just teaches good techniques. But the good ones have a passion for it without being pressured. They will keep up with the latest tech, think about code in their free time, and just generally perform many times better than everyone else.

The request for an existing portfolio isn't just to show that you have experience. It's because people who are good programmers will be doing it whether or not they are being paid! A good hiring manager can spot the bullshitters.

As Ryk said, think carefully about your career here. You can also take your programming skills and apply them to other fields you might care about more, so it's not a lost cause. But re:gaming, I will also say that I worked with veteran game programmers, and the general perception is that game careers is some of the hardest and least rewarding; every employer knows there are 10 people willing to step into your role, so they pay less and demand more.

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I should also add, if you are considering grad school, you might think about studying something else that you are passionate about but which has software application. Many industries would value a person who knows their industry and also software.

I will link my reply to the person you quoted so I can request for your feedback as well:

I think you misunderstood me.

I have also missed many nights of sleep because of a bug I encountered that I just had to find and fix. Or because I made a breakthrough on a problem and I wanted to run with it for a few hours while it was fresh in my mind.

and

They just didn't care. Programming was just a paycheck, and their craft invariably suffered for it. I'm sure there are brilliant programmers out there who don't really like to program, but I've never met one.

that's not how I feel

I've also felt the joy and the excitement of solving problems, being creative etc.

The context about the lack of motivation was that, I often will write a program that will achieve some satisfactory functionality within my own needs. (For example I once did a web scrapper to get data from the internet, and actually work with those data). It's the basic and just about what is needed functionality that is exciting. I found that if I can write a program that solves my problem in say 30 hours. But I can't possibly sell that or present it. it takes much much much more hours (100? 200?)to actually polish it, attend to any detail, add a satisfactory and professional user interface, test it, analyse what different users might want different etc

The innovation part is exciting and I don't want monetary rewards for it.

The attending to every little detail and exception is the tedious thing, that I need to get payed for to motivate myself.

Am I the odd sheep on this one?

[BrerBear]

Good reply. To reiterate, I'm not trying to dissuade you from CS.

You actually sound a little bit like me. I was fascinated by the problem solving and the innovation, but not the weeds. I scratched my own itch by eventually going into management, which is a bit like a strategy game where you deploy other programmers to larger goals. That gave everything a new angle! But you will need to work your way into something like that, obviously.

I think you're on the right track, just think about all the things that interest and motivate you and how you can combine them for a career.

[Chetnik]

This is the best reply in the thread.

I've also graduated with CS many years ago and spent a career programming and working my way to VP level in some big companies. Hired many a fresh graduate like you.

There are millions of CS grads being churned out of middle rate schools. Very few really want to program. For those that excel, a degree is not a necessity, and usually it just teaches good techniques. But the good ones have a passion for it without being pressured. They will keep up with the latest tech, think about code in their free time, and just generally perform many times better than everyone else.

The request for an existing portfolio isn't just to show that you have experience. It's because people who are good programmers will be doing it whether or not they are being paid! A good hiring manager can spot the bullshitters.

As Ryk said, think carefully about your career here. You can also take your programming skills and apply them to other fields you might care about more, so it's not a lost cause. But re:gaming, I will also say that I worked with veteran game programmers, and the general perception is that game careers is some of the hardest and least rewarding; every employer knows there are 10 people willing to step into your role, so they pay less and demand more.

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I should also add, if you are considering grad school, you might think about studying something else that you are passionate about but which has software application. Many industries would value a person who knows their industry and also software.

Indeed. The best advice anyone can give to anyone is to get passionate about your trade. There are thousands of recent graduates, so you really need to put yourself in the shoes of someone who needs to hire for a junior position. Ask questions:

What distinguishes you between any of those other graduates?
Why should they hire you specifically instead of any of the other thousand people applying with 0 experience:

Have you proven yourself reliable by working a minimum wage job or by participating in clubs/fraternities?
This kinda goes with the previous question, but I feel it deserves its own, have you participated in collegiate competitions? These competitions are a great way to prove your expertise and meet with potential employers to get your name out.
Finally, have you furthered your education by earning industry certifications?

If you've done all this, you shouldn't have any kind of issues standing out among the crowd. If you haven't done any of it, why did you go to college for CS?

TLDR: GET PASSIONATE ABOUT YOUR TRADE

[Kreeshak]

off topic: isn't innovation a wrong term with computer science, because more often than not I feel like i am re-inventing the wheel? Realistically figures what % of programmers are really innovating new algorithms or technologies or applications?

[Biged781]

Regarding pointers and recursion (algorithms), I do totally understand them, but not in seconds as the author demands in his article. I think what happens is not that I am dumb, but I haven't practiced them long enough. The question remains, does the industry demands me to grasp them in seconds, or does it allow me to "think" slightly about them? The author says many industries don't care, but plenty do.

Well, again, depends on what you want to do. Front end work? Nah, you'll be spending most of your time gluing together libraries. Game dev on anything that touches the lower level bits? Yes, absolutely, you had better know or at least be an intermediate level guy in C++ or you'll have a hard time competing against those who are. Totally depends on where you want to go in your career.

I wouldn't get too hung up on 'pointers'. When I interview I try to assess the competence of a developer outside or specific language/tooling constructs. A smart dev can pick up a new programming language without much issue, but you have to be able to show me that in a 30 minute phone screen.

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off topic: isn't innovation a wrong term with computer science, because more often than not I feel like i am re-inventing the wheel? Realistically figures what % of programmers are really innovating new algorithms or technologies or applications?

Almost none. We shouldn't confuse CS with what most of us do on a daily basis.

[Kreeshak]

So from what you guys are saying, apart from either a Master's degree, or open-source contribution, or something to show off or all of them, mentioning in my CV how much I enjoy what I do, is what is going to secure me an interview. You would interview someone with passion about the field right?

Also it's amazing how much hype and misinformation there is on the internet, media, newspapers about how secure it is to land a job in CS.

[Belize]

He must not be a very good friend if he didn't tell you to get the fuck away from the video game industry, especially big companies.

[twiddler]

off topic: isn't innovation a wrong term with computer science, because more often than not I feel like i am re-inventing the wheel? Realistically figures what % of programmers are really innovating new algorithms or technologies or applications?

Depends on who you're with and what you're doing. Some guys really hate the junior dev that is a little enthusiastic with his/her design patterns to the point where you're looking for a solution and they instantly jump to a DP. They aren't always a perfect fit, but in general, if you aren't working for your Amazons, Isilons, etc., you definitely won't be innovating your algorithms. Same can even be said of simply adapting to and implementing new technologies. Most companies, for instance, are simply scaling their MySQL DBs--not jumping to new tech (or even integrating caching tech like Redis). Outside of the top tech hubs where companies can be very progressive, innovation and adaptation really is slow.

So from what you guys are saying, apart from either a Master's degree, or open-source contribution, or something to show off or all of them, mentioning in my CV how much I enjoy what I do, is what is going to secure me an interview. You would interview someone with passion about the field right?

Also it's amazing how much hype and misinformation there is on the internet, media, newspapers about how secure it is to land a job in CS.

I really do argue against the master's degree. It likely won't help you in the gaming industry but is a necessity for some other things. The whole entire process is to show that you have a good work ethic and documented history--that you can get something done and provide solutions to a problem. Passion is great but it's a bit overrated--I just want to know that you have the professionalism to get the job done because I promise you that the passion will likely leave for most people.

[Xandrigity]

look for a 6 month internship

[unbound]

I just finished a 4 years university degree in Computer Science and I was over the moon.

I was having a conversation with a "friend" who works in one of the biggest video games companies in the industry.

He said unless I had significant self initiated coding projects to show for, companies would hardly reply to my CVs.
He said I need 1 year worth of coding projects to show for, to be considered for a junior position.

He said, because it is hard to find motivation to do the above, a master's degree would be really helpful because the expenses partially drives you as you don't want to waste your money, and also there is a project included in the course, which companies value highly.

He also said, that some concepts for example like pointers, who I need to *think* to get them right, I need to know them as naturally as multiplications tables. That the environment is pressuring and I don't have the luxury to look my notes for something. Either I know it or I don't.

What is your feedback regarding all of the above?

That is common for the video game industry. They are looking for a portfolio for pretty much all positions. In regards to his comment about pointers, for any AAA level game developer, I would agree...you better know them (and lot more) inside and out.

You friend is on the level. If it sounds like too much, look somewhere else for a job.

[soulzek]

I just finished a 4 years university degree in Computer Science and I was over the moon.

I was having a conversation with a "friend" who works in one of the biggest video games companies in the industry.

He said unless I had significant self initiated coding projects to show for, companies would hardly reply to my CVs.
He said I need 1 year worth of coding projects to show for, to be considered for a junior position.

He said, because it is hard to find motivation to do the above, a master's degree would be really helpful because the expenses partially drives you as you don't want to waste your money, and also there is a project included in the course, which companies value highly.

He also said, that some concepts for example like pointers, who I need to *think* to get them right, I need to know them as naturally as multiplications tables. That the environment is pressuring and I don't have the luxury to look my notes for something. Either I know it or I don't.

What is your feedback regarding all of the above?

your friend sounds like they know exactly what they're doing and deserve to be at a respectable software company
so, yes

also, when it comes to technical skill, you need to know 100% of it to get it to work properly. a computer isn't going to run on "good enough"

[Straamibuu]

Higher degree = higher pay
Higher degree = more employable

It seems pretty self explanatory to me. /shrug

You'd think that but from personal experience I'd say that's wrong.
I have a Masters, but they still cared more about experience than anything else. Ended up having to take some time out to code my own projects / doing some free work to get my first job
And then I decided to work for myself, but that's another story (commuting sucks!)

[Deleted]

Got a job before I even started my thesis, guess I was lucky. I had no portfolio except school projects. Feels like everyone here and the world exaggerates maximum, wtf need several projects to get an entry job..? crazy. Doing fullstack node by myself in a smaller company now. It's fun. Don't let your friend scare you, and don't be afraid to move around the world. (it's fun!)

[Kuntantee]

So from what you guys are saying, apart from either a Master's degree, or open-source contribution, or something to show off or all of them, mentioning in my CV how much I enjoy what I do, is what is going to secure me an interview. You would interview someone with passion about the field right?

Also it's amazing how much hype and misinformation there is on the internet, media, newspapers about how secure it is to land a job in CS.

CS is a different field. Being passionate is not enough, you need to have analytical thinking skills. That's the only way you can code and no amount of passion is going to save you if you lack it. Fortunately, it can be improved but 9 out of 10 people completely lack it. CS is a guaranteed field IF you are an analytical thinker. That in practice means you can develop solutions to the problems you face. Programming is process of problem solving. Analytical thinkers can easily switch languages or even switch entire field (e.g., going from programming to network or hardware). This isn't a governmental office job where you fill the paper or the form in the screen for the next citizen.

There is only one way to show your passion: side projects. Not compulsory course projects, not the ones you participated in internship or something similar but side projects. By side, I mean the projects that you participate in your personal time. If you do not have side projects, that means you are not passionate about programming. Finally, I disagree with being passionate part. You don't really have to be passionate. It just a state which makes you happy while you are performing your job. It's good for your mental health. However, for programming, you only need problem solving skills (aka analytical thinking skills), the rest can be learned/trained quite easily in time.

Also, a master's degree will not make you a better programmer, unless you specifically opt for a topic which focuses on programming side of Computer Science. Any competent project manager who's about to hire some other programmers is going to look at your problem solving skills first, and your official qualification (i.e., degrees) later. A bad programmer with PhD (yes, they exist) is going to be rejected.

There is less programming in CS. For example, if you enroll to grad school and work on actual CS projects, conduct research, you will only need to implement simulations to test your theories/algorithms/whatever. Research code doesn't need to be fast. It doesn't need to be relatively bug-free. It doesn't need to be maintainable and it doesn't need to be readable. However, the problem solving skills are still needed. Otherwise, you're going to have terrible time trying to implement your own simulations.

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off topic: isn't innovation a wrong term with computer science, because more often than not I feel like i am re-inventing the wheel? Realistically figures what % of programmers are really innovating new algorithms or technologies or applications?

You are re-inventing the wheel to learn how to think like a programmer, to learn how to solve basic problems, to learn how to think algorithmically. Up until 3rd year, or even 4th year in some universities, you spend your time dealing with toy problems that has little to no place in real world when isolated. However, the entirety of the things that you are going to deal in real projects will be built up based on those little "toy" solutions.

Programming part of CS is not science, it's engineering. You only innovate when the existing solutions do not fit your needs. This is often the case for researching companies, like Google. Innovation is the job of CS people in Academia and if you look a closer look, you will see that innovative companies often have close ties with universities. Scientists/Academicians don't care how much time they're going to spend, and how much money they're going to waste while improving a particular system. It would be also accurate to say that most of the time the innovation team and programming team are different. While innovating (what we call research), you want your algorithms (abstract) to perform better, whereas while implementing you want your code to work as fast as possible. These are different fields of expertise. It will also mislead if you think "innovation" as a personal trait of the programmer, in programming terms. It is a responsibility for the position. For example, in gaming, I am sure programmers mess with existing computer graphics algorithms to make them faster. However, the very same "innovating" programmers wouldn't be "innovating" if they were simply implementing some, say, automation software (media servers, players, graphic editors etc.) for TV channels.

--

OP, you seem a bit confused. Do not let what is being written here discourage you. In particular, do not be stress because you have to "think" to get pointers right. If you can get it right, you just need to get fast and that happens only when you code. Someone suggested 6 month internship. If you completed your internship, I highly disagree going for another internship. Go for junior engineering positions. This isn't some bullshit "economy" field that your CV needs look fancy. Write all the technical things you know. Avoid writing little details like "excel" (I have seen this in various CVs). Anything technical, that is, related with either programming or topics of CS (e.g., image processing), write them down to you CV. Anything not related with neither programming nor CS, avoid in your CV's "technical skills" section. Do not waste your time, and get involved in an open source project that you like. You like gaming? Find a mid-sized active open source game project and participate.

[Danner]

I just finished a 4 years university degree in Computer Science and I was over the moon.

I was having a conversation with a "friend" who works in one of the biggest video games companies in the industry.

He said unless I had significant self initiated coding projects to show for, companies would hardly reply to my CVs.
He said I need 1 year worth of coding projects to show for, to be considered for a junior position.

He said, because it is hard to find motivation to do the above, a master's degree would be really helpful because the expenses partially drives you as you don't want to waste your money, and also there is a project included in the course, which companies value highly.

He also said, that some concepts for example like pointers, who I need to *think* to get them right, I need to know them as naturally as multiplications tables. That the environment is pressuring and I don't have the luxury to look my notes for something. Either I know it or I don't.

What is your feedback regarding all of the above?

Everyone and their grandmother has a paper showing they know this IT thing.

Sometimes, that paper means they have completed a basic course in MS Word and know what the file in said application menu does. Sometimes that means they have completed Visual Basic programming basics, and have the theoretical know-how on how to build simple business applications. Sometimes it means they have a full insight into the TCP/IP stack, understands fully how a processor works, and have a degree in parallel computing. Sometimes they have that paper but can't code for shit. Sometimes it means they have spent their entire childhood designing processors, have 10+ years of linux kernel development experience, and is a three-time winner of the IOCCC - and this paper just was the direction their interests would have taken them anyway. Sometimes it means it's a mostly clever person guy who studied IT because of it was a get-rich venue, but have absolutely no interest in computers whatsoever.

Basically, a paper can mean a lot of different things. It's incredibly hard for an employer to know just by looking at that paper whether this candidate is exactly what they have been dreaming about hiring, or just someone with a fancy paper and all the wrong know-how. Either way, everyone who applies has this paper. (Anyone who doesn't have that paper tends to be culled before interview rounds even begin). So the paper itself is kinda worthless.

A company is looking for someone who can start working on the job(tm) as soon as possible. They can't afford a long training program. They want someone who is quick on the uptake, with an agreeable personality, and the right basic skillset. The paper won't tell them. The interview round will. However, getting to the job interview is though. Nobody is going to interview a hundred, let alone a thousand people. Ten-fifteen is what most businesses can possibly afford to interview for a position. To get to the cut of interview rounds, you need something that makes you get to that point.

• Excel at studies.
  If you graduate with all A's, that is going to raise an eyebrow or two with the hiring crew. It's at the very least likely going to secure you an interview. However, this is a stupid amount of work, and if it was easy to accomplish, everyone would be doing it. Good grades tell the interviewer that you are a hard-working person with a good brain. It doesn't tell them that you have the skillset they want, but it does tell them that you are able to learn. That's important, and you just raised some interest!
  
• Get contacts.
  If you manage to impress that "friend" in the games industry, you will automatically be guaranteed an interview in his company. Because he will tell his boss that you are worth looking into. Word of mouth goes a long way. And nothing is better than a good reputation.
  
  At my university, I had a job as a teaching assistant, and I spotted bugs fast. I got a reputation for being good at programming. The reputation was probably better than what I actually was good at, but that just egged me to live up to the impressions. But a lot of people eventually knew who I was. the word of mouth spread that I knew what I was doing. That's how I landed my interview. Word of mouth.
  
• Have the best resume
  Any company know what they are looking for. Sometimes, someone appears with the best resume ever. They want that person so bad it's an automatic interview. If you can show you have the best experience, that will impress. But if you're straight-out-of-university, that's not trivial to do. But even if you can't brag about working 10 years for google, you can show your skillset. If you have been coding since the age of 15, say so! I recommend tailoring your resume for the job you are applying to though. Try to estimate what the company wants, and how you can sell yourself to them the best.
  
  The resume may include having a much better paper than everyone else. A post-doc with years of research into database design is going to impress when applying for a database job. A master of electronics is better than a bachelor in computer science, if you're applying for a hardware company, but probably not so much if you're aiming to be a web developer.
  

Getting to the interview is one thing. Getting the job is a whole lot harder.

I personally stopped caring about grades much mid-way through my studies (I was never a good student anyway). What I did instead was to have fun. In a geeky way. I would sit down and learn a new programming language every semester. I would join programming competitions. I had hobby projects where I built game engines, demos and similar. I mastered PHP on my own and did dynamic webpages long before it was a fad. I mastered C, learned multithreading, graphics, sound programming, networking - you name it, I've done it.

When I was at my interview, the interviewers liked all this a lot. Seriously, a lot. It was likely the reason why I got the position. I could show that I was able to make things. I had experiences in a wide array of subfields within programming, some of them even work relevant. I could demonstrably code very well. I was what they were looking for. So I got the job.

If you want to join the games industry - make a game first! A person standing in the job interview showcasing a game they made - has a whole lot better chance than the ones that do not. The game company will want to find people with as much games-related experience as possible, and you're just handing it to them if you have a game of your own. The better game, the more awesome.

To be honest, I do not think the master degree is all that useful, compared to a bachelor. Sure, it's a better paper, but it just means that you're competing with 100 other people instead of a 1000 other people for the dream job position. However, a master gives you two more years to do something amazing. Like making that game.

[TwoNineMarine]

It's all about supply and demand. When every one and their mom has a coding degree or actual experience and wants work companies can require whatever they want basically.

Put in the work and start on those projects by yourself. Do whatever you need to to get the work done.

And many of the people above me are correct: Experience > Degree. Having the degree and experience will put you above them. But not until you have the experience.

[Deleted]

I just finished a 4 years university degree in Computer Science and I was over the moon.

I was having a conversation with a "friend" who works in one of the biggest video games companies in the industry.

He said unless I had significant self initiated coding projects to show for, companies would hardly reply to my CVs.
He said I need 1 year worth of coding projects to show for, to be considered for a junior position.

He said, because it is hard to find motivation to do the above, a master's degree would be really helpful because the expenses partially drives you as you don't want to waste your money, and also there is a project included in the course, which companies value highly.

He also said, that some concepts for example like pointers, who I need to *think* to get them right, I need to know them as naturally as multiplications tables. That the environment is pressuring and I don't have the luxury to look my notes for something. Either I know it or I don't.

What is your feedback regarding all of the above?

Depends on where you're from i'd guess. The easiest way to get some experience, at least in Romania, is to get an internship and then perform during that so that you get employed afterwards as a junior. If you're trying to get into one of the biggest video game companies then you'll most likely need to have something to show for it especially if you're trying to get into something game related. There's quite a bit of difference between working as a programmer in general and working on game related things as the latter requires you to have at least some sort of knowledge about what makes something fun or worthwhile in a game.

As for the second part i agree with your friend. The thing you need the most as a programmer is the ability to understand things quite fast and be able to make use of them properly. Having to look up notes to understand how something works isn't going to last you long as you'll end up with issues as soon as you hit something somewhat complicated.

[ItachiZaku]

Basically, if you actually got the 4 year degree before having the job, you are shit out of luck. Maybe times the best position is you are looking for the work while in school, and a company hires you based on the projects you've already completed or a demo you have to show, then you use their company loan matching to complete your degree while working up the job chain.

As someone else said, if you have the degree and nothing (projects) to show for it, you have a fairly useless piece of paper. Take your fucking programming degree, get an entry job at some help desk, and work on some projects in your off hours.

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The easiest way to get some experience, at least in Romania.

We have a helpdesk in Romania. Get your foot in the door somewhere.

[Ryme]

If someone came to us with a personal github loaded with various personal projects, even if those projects weren't all that great, I'd be dramatically more in favor of taking them over someone who didn't. It shows a personal willingness to work under real life constraints, and makes for a very easy way to assess your coding ability.

Tough thing is, nearly every application we get has one so your friend is not wrong.