I think Blizzard are overestimating how many people actually Mythic

[cFortyfive]

The available groups with their bullshit "BE GUD DONT SUCK" crap

well you could make it easier by telling your peers to stop sucking so incredibly hard

[Kpmk]

With most people having moved on to mythic 10+ at least by now, regular mythic dungeons are a pretty casual scene. As for kara, I wanted to do it on my 840 rogue, but i had to pug it as I'm not in a guild anymore, and i was getting a lot of declines. So i started my own group and cleared it in a couple hours. I consider myself a very casual player with like.. less than 5 Emerald Nightmare kills across my account. Kara is very casual friendly if you put in the effort.

[Otimus]

So what you want? Blizz must make another zone/dungeon other stuff every month? There are some mechanics that they are using to keep average player subbed: 1)create incentive to repeat content (world quests, different difficulties), 2)time gating, so you don't burn all the content in 2 weeks 3)things like legendary that are rare and usually require to play regularly for long period of time, 4)create a content that require much bigger effort from typical unexperienced solo player - it was (is ;P) Balance of Power questline, Karazhan dungeon and smaller things, like for example gating some 3 star pattern from profession behind rated battleground win. They didn't use 4) option in recent expansions (in Warlords in was only moose mount from HC Archimonde, but you could just buy a boost and it was rather cheap), but it was very common in pre-Cata times. Personally, I love this.

And no, they can't put Mythic Dungeons in LFG. For intended item level (I think it must be around 825-830 if loot is 840) they are way too hard for random matchmaking group, consequence would be threads angry like this DEMANDING to nerf dungeons (and Blizzard would nerf them eventually).

You have a choice with mythic dungeons - you can do it with 820-830 item level with friends/guildies or organized progression groups from Group Finder. But most people don't want to progress something with stranger - you never know if people on the other side will ragequit and your time is wasted. So if you don't want to do this there is choice #2 - get item level higher than 840 (with world quests and class set it's super easy) and join farms groups, so you can do dungeon quests, but also you have a chance for upgrade with titanforge and legendaries. If you are super casual, this will be content with best base level, so there is a high chance for upgrade.

Really I don't have much else to add (again, I'm really hoping this is a troll thread).

With the amount of money Blizzard has, actually, yes, they SHOULD be making at least some really basic form of content every 2-3 weeks, or every month.

Smaller MMO's do this. Some things that aren't even true MMO's will even do this.

WoW doesn't do this, and never really has done this because they don't "have" to. A certain base number will keep paying anyways.


On the subject of mythics, far as I'm concerned, they should remove the weekly cap and put them in LFG. Probably not right now, but within the next 6-8 months. Otherwise base mythics are basically going to be dead. Barely many wants to run them anymore now. Give in time, and it's gonna be way worse than it already is.

[Luko]

well you could make it easier by telling your peers to stop sucking so incredibly hard

I'll get right on that. Quality of life improvement right here.

[nekobaka]

Well the resources that went into Kara was comparatively minuscule to having brand new post launch dungeon content that devs have been dragging their heels to develop after admitting it was a mistake it not develop it back in MoP. Having a content drop that focused on new raid content within the same tier is not new as well.

[Hctaz]

They know that very few people actually run Mythic dungeons. The problem was that Karazhan was already done and they didn't want to dump MORE resources into it and look bad by changing their plans by making a heroic difficulty for it. I honestly doubt we'll see more Mythic only dungeons in future patches for Legion. If anything we'll see Mythic added to the group finder and either Heroic or Normal 5-mans phased out.

Mythic is easy if you're in a guild that runs them. If you're not at this point though, good luck. I have no problem running Mythics, but I'm painfully aware of how inaccessible they are to average players especially if those players didn't pick the right class/spec.

I don't think that's accurate at all. I know plenty of people who run mythic dungeons both on forums, in game and whatnot. Mythic 0 dungeons are super easy. You can pug them no problem. Mythic pluses are a different story but Kara isn't a plus. Kara is pretty hard, though, and I wouldn't really pug it with anybody lower than 855 right now. It's hard enough to carry people through a new instance but a new HARD instance is nearly impossible. Also: My alts are all on different servers than my main since I recently transferred him for Legion. I can tell you with a straight face that it is not hard to pug mythic dungeons without a guild. My alts aren't even well geared either.

[Deleted]

Mythic+0 can't be part of LFG, because you would need to set the minimum entry at a level higher than the dungeon reward to cater to the skill range present in queued content.

If they allow Mythic to be queued, they have to nerf the content. Period.

I do not understand this, what is the point of having to have better gear to complete the dungeon that gives lower gear ? Seems backwards to me...

[ls-]

Why isn't there a normal or a heroic version of the Suramar dungeons and Kara in matchmaking? How would those settings for the game actually cause harm? How would putting mythic in matchmaking REALLY hurt the game? I don't personally believe the excuse that it contributes to a more toxic community. That is a MUCH larger social issue well beyond the scope of dungeon content in WoW. The much more likely scenario is that it creates more work for Blizzard when they're trying to maintain a faster pace of content release, so balancing two extra difficulties and loot tables for each of those dungeons gets cut.

Cuz not everything should be a content for everyone. And yeah it contributes to a lot of toxicity on official forums, cuz it usually spawns a lot "nerf this shit" threads. As I said earlier in this thread, queueable "normal" raids work in FFXIV, cuz that's how things were since day one, that's why it's an okay thing for people, nothing extraordinary.

However, that's not how matchmaking PvE content works in WoW. In WoW queue means accessibility and successful completion w/ no or little challenge. If there's challenge in queueable content in WoW many people do not try to overcome it, but go on forums and whine till it's nerfed. Sadly I'm not exaggerating, cuz that's what we saw during first weeks of Cata, and recently in LFR HFC, where blizz had to repeatedly nerf bosses, esp Archi, cuz they were wiping your average player who did queueable content exclusively.

Mythic dungs are easy for people who are used to PUGs and/or organised raiding, that's why you see so many contradictory posts about them, like some people say that they're easy, but others say are not and they are on a level of pre-nerf Cata heroics.

Matchmaking simply doesn't work for harder content in WoW. Ofc it'll help those who are already used to harder content, so it'll be even easier for them to complete it when their friends are offline, but it'll cause huge wave of frustration among people aren't used to challenge, wipes, etc, or simply don't want to experience any of that at all, all they want is to get in, complete it easily w/ no interaction w/ others, get better loot, and leave asap, but it's impossible w/ harder content.

There are ways to turn current "non-repeatable" content, such as quests, into repeatable content. Look at FFXIV's job system, for example. Or DDO's True Reincarnation system.

I didn't like jobs in FFXIV T_T I'm not sure how they're now, but they're quite annoying in original FFXIV and Heavensward. I quit soon after Heavensward's release.

Hell, even Blizzard managed a version by re-using leveling quests as World Quests. I feel like people fixate on dungeons and raids as being the end-all-be-all of end-game content simply because that's what they're used to. People really need to broaden their perspective, maybe play some other MMOs that aren't WoW clones. There ARE other ways to do things besides Blizzard's way.

Problem is that people what to get rewards from content that isn't designed for them, cuz it offers better rewards. You can flood the game w/ shitton of solo content, but people will still complain about inaccessibility of dungs and raids, about challenge, about gating certain rewards behind certain difficulties, be it something trivial and cosmetic, or something more significant.

Players don't care, we want everything right here and yesterday, pls.

P.S. I do think that adding old mythic dungs to LFD is a good idea, but only when they're outgeared by majority of active playerbase.

[sethman75]

Maybe it's time for Blizzard to think outside the box.

Time to seperate ilevel gear from dungeons/raids etc from another progression mechanic.
I could see the people not interested in raids playing a crafting, weekly story, housing, driven game that gives xmog gear with no ilevel.

That should be only for running raids.

[DJ117]

Because it's boring and not very fun for some? Once I do a Mythic I never return unless a quest says go.

So either boring, not fun or taking too long. Sounds to me that catering to these monkeys is a waste of time because they will never appreciate the game and will never be satisfied.

[Murderdoll]

They arent overestimating at all.

Theyre trying to get more people into dungeon content to combat the "theres nothing to do" calls when people are done with their level of raiding and to extend the life of 5 man content that normally dies off within a month of an expansion.

Mythic Dungeons are not difficult they just require the bare minimum of organisation.

By introducing mythic required content it prolongs its life expectancy.

[Lane]

No Blizzard needs to pick a direction and perfect it but sadly they are trying to cater to everyone and pissing everyone off, hell look at this expansion..........lots of solo content, lots of dungeons, good raid content............forums bitch, yeah people like different things but if you read this bullshit nobody is happy with what they are given......even faster patches and they are not happy! If you honestly can tell me that you think it's just "people like different things" and not people are never happy I can honestly call you delusional.

It's because Blizzard's execution is usually lacking. Love dungeons/raids, but don't like questing? Too bad, you're doing it because we've nerfed dungeon and outdoor mob EXP as well as added reputation gates. Love questing, but hate dungeons/raids? Too bad, you're doing it because we've gated everything we possibly could behind instanced group content.

Nowhere in Legion has Blizzard given different playstyles what they want. They've instead done what they always do and have designed the game to pressure everyone do everything, that is why there are complaints. Unfortunately, it is enough ammunition to use to say, "Blizzard catered to X group and it didn't work" when in truth they didn't at all. It'll also more than likely be used as an excuse by the devs to never try again even if it would've been successful with some modifications.

World of Wargraph says about 60% of 110s have completed EN (last I checked, must be more now), and around 50% have done Mythic dungeons.

We're not exactly talking about content being reserved for the hardcore elitists looking down on the unwashed plebs here. This isn't BC.

Those numbers don't mean anything to me due to Blizzard's penchant of pressuring people into doing content they don't enjoy. I hate raiding, but I will inevitably end up doing it because at the very least it's a requirement for Pathfinder. So, I'll be one of those 110s who did EN, not because I wanted to, but because I had to in order to get something I want. Mine's not an isolated case either, many people are doing instanced content they'd rather not do because of Legion being so gate-heavy.

- - - Updated - - -

With the amount of money Blizzard has, actually, yes, they SHOULD be making at least some really basic form of content every 2-3 weeks, or every month.

Smaller MMO's do this. Some things that aren't even true MMO's will even do this.

WoW doesn't do this, and never really has done this because they don't "have" to. A certain base number will keep paying anyways.

This. I've enjoyed the class hall campaigns, which have largely reused pre-existing resources. The amount of development time to continue those would fall heaviest upon writing new quests/dialog and would likely take a fraction of the time as designing new instanced content (which would more than likely be different departments anyway). Likewise, I enjoyed the pre-Legion invasions, they could have something like that recurring too. Frankly, there are a lot of options WoW chooses not to pursue for whatever reason. I believe it's as another poster said, because the devs themselves like raiding so that's where their attention is focused, unfortunately to the detriment of everything else.

Sadly, I feel the genre as a whole is pretty much doomed until there's a major technological revolution. (Like possibly affordable and amazing VR, perhaps)

The problem is more that no one's willing to take a risk. Had GW2 stuck to their guns they probably would have have been much more successful than they were, but it seemed the closer to release they got the more backpedaling to 'traditional MMO' design they did, which continued after launch. I haven't played it in years, but when I quit it was a shell of the promise it had and the devs had gone back on nearly every philosophy they'd outlined in their manifesto.

I imagine situations like that don't help. Investors probably see games that they consider tried something out of the box (when in truth they barely stuck a toe out) and decide since WoW was so successful that's the model they should copy. Then you get the 'WoW clones', which don't tend to fare well, and then the genre appears to be dying.

One of the devs for Wildstar said that 65% of MMO players are soloers and that they're a largely under-served demographic. I still firmly believe if a solo friendly MMO were ever developed with AAA quality it'd be hugely successful.

[SirCowdog]

Cuz not everything should be a content for everyone.

I completely agree. However, consider that in this case WoW has had dungeon content for all ranges of players since Vanilla. Normal AND heroic, and later on Mythic. The same applies to raiding once LFR was implemented. Except NOW we have content which is ONLY mythic, which is a break from the pattern and expectations set down by the previous decade. What's different now?

Players have even more access to gear than ever before, and yet we're meant to believe that "mythic" dungeons, a difficulty which is about on par with previous heroics, is too difficult for non-pre-made groups???

And yeah it contributes to a lot of toxicity on official forums, cuz it usually spawns a lot "nerf this shit" threads. As I said earlier in this thread, queueable "normal" raids work in FFXIV, cuz that's how things were since day one, that's why it's an okay thing for people, nothing extraordinary.

The forums where the supposed "Vocal Minority" posts, and doesn't represent the entirety, or even the majority, of players?

However, that's not how matchmaking PvE content works in WoW. In WoW queue means accessibility and successful completion w/ no or little challenge. If there's challenge in queueable content in WoW many people do not try to overcome it, but go on forums and whine till it's nerfed. Sadly I'm not exaggerating, cuz that's what we saw during first weeks of Cata, and recently in LFR HFC, where blizz had to repeatedly nerf bosses, esp Archi, cuz they were wiping your average player who did queueable content exclusively.

Mythic dungs are easy for people who are used to PUGs and/or organised raiding, that's why you see so many contradictory posts about them, like some people say that they're easy, but others say are not and they are on a level of pre-nerf Cata heroics.

Matchmaking simply doesn't work for harder content in WoW. Ofc it'll help those who are already used to harder content, so it'll be even easier for them to complete it when their friends are offline, but it'll cause huge wave of frustration among people aren't used to challenge, wipes, etc, or simply don't want to experience any of that at all, all they want is to get in, complete it easily w/ no interaction w/ others, get better loot, and leave asap, but it's impossible w/ harder content.

Again, consider my point about the actual difficulty of current Mythic-0. It's not actually very hard, and players have a LOT of easily accessible gear to place them above the iLVL where they would be challenging. What need would there be to nerf the dungeons if players are already overgearing them by the time they even want or need to run them?

I do not buy this particular explanation for why putting Mythic-0 in the queue is a problem. In the past what you're saying might have been true. However, with the RNG system of Warforged and Titanforged gear, as well as Artifact Power and legendary drops, I don't think the complaints from players attempting Mythic using Auto-Matchmaking would be anywhere near as large or as loud as you might believe.

I didn't like jobs in FFXIV T_T I'm not sure how they're now, but they're quite annoying in original FFXIV and Heavensward. I quit soon after Heavensward's release.

These were just examples of how to get more mileage out of content. Was there anything in particular you didn't like about the jobs? I thought it added some very interesting depth to character customization and playstyle. If a player wanted to increase their versatility, they'd start a new job on the same character. In WoW you'd have to start an entirely separate alt to accomplish the same thing. In Legion you have to grind AP in a new spec.

Problem is that people what to get rewards from content that isn't designed for them, cuz it offers better rewards. You can flood the game w/ shitton of solo content, but people will still complain about inaccessibility of dungs and raids, about challenge, about gating certain rewards behind certain difficulties, be it something trivial and cosmetic, or something more significant.

Players don't care, we want everything right here and yesterday, pls.

P.S. I do think that adding old mythic dungs to LFD is a good idea, but only when they're outgeared by majority of active playerbase.

Players like rewards, that's true. And Legion currently gives a LOT of rewards for solo players. As I already mentioned: Legendary drops, as much AP as a person is willing to grind, Warforged and Titanforged upgrades from easy content.

Right now players are rightly complaining about accessibility to dungeons because Blizzard has literally removed that accessibility by not having normal or heroic versions of cutting-edge dungeons. When you stop to consider that the average solo player can easily obtain an iLVL of 850 with only crafted gear, World Quest drops, Heroic Dungeons, Emissary quests, and LFR.....would Mythic-0 Arcway or Court of Stars REALLY be that challenging? Would Kara?

Even you yourself just said that you're ok with the idea of putting these instances in matchmaking once they're outgeared by players. But aren't players ALREADY starting to outgear them with LFR drops, constantly rising AP levels, and as more and more players get Legendaries?



Anyway, to sum up, I think people are putting WAY too much stock in this idea that matchmaking would automatically result in nerfs and complaints. IMHO, Blizzard would simply need to place a slightly higher iLVL requirement on Arcway, Court of Stars, and Kara to ensure correct gear-levels. The gear is available, and not particularly difficult to obtain. I think that people are REALLY underestimating the power of that gear-availability to mitigate the complaints about Matchmaking that we've seen in the past, when gear WASN'T so available.

[Deleted]

I would like to do mythic, but tried it once and got yelled at because we died... so I'll pass.

I'm surprised you're even able to be visit the internet.

[ls-]

@SirCowdog, I'm too lazy to multiquote that much again.

Mythic only dungs are like Mythic only bosses in raids. Sure, they are in raids, but they are designed for a certain audience. Anyone else is free to do them when they outgear and/or outlevel that content. Same goes for dungs, sure, they are in the world, but they are targeted at certain demographic of players that are not solo players, or people who like matchmaking content.

It adds variety.

IMHO, Blizzard would simply need to place a slightly higher iLVL requirement on Arcway, Court of Stars, and Kara to ensure correct gear-levels. The gear is available, and not particularly difficult to obtain. I think that people are REALLY underestimating the power of that gear-availability to mitigate the complaints about Matchmaking that we've seen in the past, when gear WASN'T so available.

You overestimate skill level of Average Joe. I'm not even talking about gaming right now. Average user is really bad at using pretty much any piece of software, not talking about some niche market products designed for professionals exclusively, but even there it's not really optimistic.

Gamers are no exception, average gamer sucks at playing the game he's playing. Gear doesn't help either, that's the reason why you hear about ilvl860 dds who do like <100k dps more often than you'd expect.

I do not buy this particular explanation for why putting Mythic-0 in the queue is a problem. In the past what you're saying might have been true. However, with the RNG system of Warforged and Titanforged gear, as well as Artifact Power and legendary drops, I don't think the complaints from players attempting Mythic using Auto-Matchmaking would be anywhere near as large or as loud as you might believe.

There's no need to buy into anything. That's just how things are in WoW. We've seen it more than once in the past, and it'll happen again. It's REALLY easy to outgear LFR HFC thanks to tanaan dailies, vendors, Kazzak and warforging, but it didn't stop people from demanding to nerf LFR HFC, Blizz had to severely nerf Archi, so people could kill him w/o any issues, players want guaranteed rewards from matchmaking content, challenge isn't something they seek there.

Even if there were pisseasy normals and heroics of dungs in question, people would demand to m0 to be nerfed. You have too much faith in people T_T

[Osmeric]

Getting Blizzard to do something is a lost cause at this point. They've had years to change their prejudices and haven't done so.

The lessons should be for other MMO makers.

WoW's experience demonstrates that trying to please everyone doesn't work.

Other games' experience shows that focusing on the hardcores doesn't work (see WildStar).

The only option left is to focus only on the non-hardcores.

[Deleted]

Getting Blizzard to do something is a lost cause at this point. They've had years to change their prejudices and haven't done so.

The lessons should be for other MMO makers.

WoW's experience demonstrates that trying to please everyone doesn't work.

Other games' experience shows that focusing on the hardcores doesn't work (see WildStar).

The only option left is to focus only on the non-hardcores.

The fact that you are comparing Wildstar to WoW is just stupid.
Also wow does not focus much around hardcore players now compared to earlier.
I actually think the balance is good at the moment.

[runique]

I assume they have access to the actual numbers.

I don't mind mythic dungeons much, but it's not fun to find a group on a dps character.
There shouldve been a hc version of Karazhan too btw. Not having one was just a cut in time and costs.

An LFG heroic version of Kara would not work. You either would end up replacing everyone in the group by the time you got to the last boss, or it would be split in 2 and cheapen the experience. Not to mention half the mechanics would need to be tuned waayyy down or just scrapped. It's designed to feel like a mini-raid, and also encourage people that normally don't participate in non-lfg content to be social.

[Usagi Senshi]

An LFG heroic version of Kara would not work. You either would end up replacing everyone in the group by the time you got to the last boss, or it would be split in 2 and cheapen the experience. Not to mention half the mechanics would need to be tuned waayyy down or just scrapped. It's designed to feel like a mini-raid, and also encourage people that normally don't participate in non-lfg content to be social.

Oh no, it could definitely work and would, but be honest here please: YOU don't want it to work.

Mechanics would be fine as well since they're not that complex to begin with and barely more than what the original fights were.

You guys really need to stop spewing the social (saying that though, I did find two new friends using the GFT but I have 15 more on my bnet list from LFD groups) angle though because I use group finder as if it were a random queue finder and only talk when I see other people talk. Social skills generally aren't needed for many of these dungeons.

Funny enough though, I would have made many more friends in random queue raids/4-mans in FFXIV if Square had a proper cross-realm friend system (hopefully coming with the Stormblood expansion) in place. People are just more nice and helpful in that game in general though.

I take screenshots of the people I like just in case I can add them later.

[SirCowdog]

@SirCowdog, I'm too lazy to multiquote that much again.

Mythic only dungs are like Mythic only bosses in raids.

No, actually, they're not.

Mythic only bosses often only occur at the final boss, and are the same fight encounters with maybe a little twist. There is a world of difference between that and an ENTIRE INSTANCE. You're also glazing over the fact that Mythic bosses are available within the larger scope of ALL raid difficulties, from LFR to Mythic. What is the scope that mythic-only dungeons are it? They're out there by themselves. There's no normal mode, or heroic version at all! Mythic only dungeons aren't just a different spin on an existing instance.

It adds variety.

It literally does NOT add variety. It's actually giving less variety by not providing normal or heroic modes. Adding variety would be providing the complete range of difficulties for a new instance. The new and different variety you're using as an example with Mythic-only bosses at the end of a raid would be more like Mythic+ changes. And that's just one more reason why this exclusivity for mythic-0 doesn't make any sense. The "variety" you're speaking of lies in Mythic+.

What really amazes me is that if Mythic-0 were called heroic, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Think about THAT for a moment.

You overestimate skill level of Average Joe. I'm not even talking about gaming right now. Average user is really bad at using pretty much any piece of software, not talking about some niche market products designed for professionals exclusively, but even there it's not really optimistic.

Gamers are no exception, average gamer sucks at playing the game he's playing. Gear doesn't help either, that's the reason why you hear about ilvl860 dds who do like <100k dps more often than you'd expect.

Maybe I am overestimating the average gamer. But I AM accurately describing Mythic-0's place in the grand scheme of the game. Blizzard themselves have said that entry-level Mythic is actually less difficult than cata heroics.

There's no need to buy into anything. That's just how things are in WoW. We've seen it more than once in the past, and it'll happen again. It's REALLY easy to outgear LFR HFC thanks to tanaan dailies, vendors, Kazzak and warforging, but it didn't stop people from demanding to nerf LFR HFC, Blizz had to severely nerf Archi, so people could kill him w/o any issues, players want guaranteed rewards from matchmaking content, challenge isn't something they seek there.

Even if there were pisseasy normals and heroics of dungs in question, people would demand to m0 to be nerfed. You have too much faith in people T_T

I don't believe that's true at all. There is a difference between the complexity of the final boss of an expansion in a raid setting, and bosses in opening patch dungeons.

And besides, which is more harmful to the community? A vocal minority calling for nerfs because they suck at the game, or people just outright quitting the game because all the casual content dries up while Blizzard caters to a small group of elitists who can't tolerate ANY form of content which they deem "casual"?

There are BETTER ways of addressing the issue of toxic community members than eliminating casual option for players to access the content.