Talent system is a failure

[Ladyoftheforest]

Those are still tiers...

The idea is to get rid of the tier differentiation by mixing dps and utlity in each row. By making utlity more important in raids the dps talents will be less precious than before, gives a player less pressure to dps and perhaps even more challenge by performing the desired utlity well.

[WowIsDead64]

Current talent system has simple purpose: you can pick all passive talents and play 3-button style game, if you're noob, who don't know, how to play the game, or you can pick active abilities and fill your 4 action bars with them instead. That's it.

[Purpleisbetter]

As a Resto druid, i swap talents fight to fight depending on my needs, raid size, healers comp and trinkets.

This system is the best ever and for once i don't have cookie cutter builds anymore.

p.s.: it's about the tuning.

[Ladyoftheforest]

but that is the issue...that is blizzard goal..and since the introduction never truly materialised. Instead we have these game designers trying to balance classes/specs and talents. removing the talents is one less thing to balance.

Think they need to address the raids more to empower the utility. It also will engage raiders more by giving them more tasks other than to heal or dps. It would also mean the skill cap could grow (which is a good thing) and in general it would give raiding a new dimension. It wouldn't be too hard to implement. We have classes that are attuned to elements. Frost mages/dk's, shadow, holy, etc. Why not attune raidmobs/mechanics to those elements and tie utlity talents to circumvent these mechanics/mobs. On top of that class selfidentity will get it's glow back.

[Banard]

Current talent system has simple purpose: you can pick all passive talents and play 3-button style game, if you're noob, who don't know, how to play the game, or you can pick active abilities and fill your 4 action bars with them instead. That's it.

thank you for your opinion..sadly for some class specs the option that are optimal for DPS are the passive talents..so even with this purpose the system is a fail.

it also highlights another point....passive talents are not very engaging ...

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Think they need to address the raids more to empower the utility. It also will engage raiders more by giving them more tasks other than to heal or dps. It would also mean the skill cap could grow (which is a good thing) and in general it would give raiding a new dimension. It wouldn't be too hard to implement. We have classes that are attuned to elements. Frost mages/dk's, shadow, holy, etc. Why not attune raidmobs/mechanics to those elements and tie utlity talents to circumvent these mechanics/mobs. On top of that class selfidentity will get it's glow back.

ummmm.....there is a lot of utility in raids now...CCing adds, stunning adds, slowing adds...people going of to do a specific job...if you not seeing this you might want to up your game and try a harder difficulty.

Mythic EN there are adds you slow/stun/CC/grip. There are other parts where speed boost are fantastic...there are other parts where removing roots is ideal..there is a lot of utility in raids now.

Other parts where you can cheese mechanics with certain immunities.

[darklogrus]

As a Resto druid, i swap talents fight to fight depending on my needs, raid size, healers comp and trinkets.

This system is the best ever and for once i don't have cookie cutter builds anymore.

p.s.: it's about the tuning.

As a Feral I never touch my talents, theres little to no reason for me to do so..

[Banard]

As a Resto druid, i swap talents fight to fight depending on my needs, raid size, healers comp and trinkets.

This system is the best ever and for once i don't have cookie cutter builds anymore.

p.s.: it's about the tuning.

how is that not cookie cutter? Situation is X so you pick Y. That is cookie cutter. How is that fun? How is that engaging? It is an example of a class that has a lot more swapping...but i don't see that as engaging game play....i see that as healer X justed DC, and the resto druid dont have tome and everyoen is cheap so /dbm why he hearths respecs and gets another summon.

in the end if you baked them all in the choice is always on yar bar for the situation that arises.

[Staalsy]

I change my talents constantly on my resto shaman.

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[Ladyoftheforest]

ummmm.....there is a lot of utility in raids now...CCing adds, stunning adds, slowing adds...people going of to do a specific job...if you not seeing this you might want to up your game and try a harder difficulty.

Mythic EN there are adds you slow/stun/CC/grip. There are other parts where speed boost are fantastic...there are other parts where removing roots is ideal..there is a lot of utility in raids now.

You are not reading or understanding. I'm not talking about the current setup where we have this generation of 'utility'. I'm talking about a new set of utlity that's kindred to the class and relates to the raid setup. First you get to choose between utility or dps/heal talents in the same row. Second the chosen talents will see good use in raids meaning that doing less dps or hps won't deter the raid from succeeding.

Specific mobs reacting differently to specific classes, raids splitting in groups that have tasks to forfill with every class using it's attunement (utility or dps) to tackle the challenge. I'd also be interested to maybe see the offspec be of use in raids, but that's going even further in making the game more complex.

[Deleted]

"an optimal build and you ignore the rest"

Actually, I regularly tell my raiders to not play with certain "optimal" talents because they can't execute them well. I'd rather they use a passive that's 1% behind "optimal" than fail at the best and lose 5%.

Except that most passive talents that are a suboptimal choice isn't as close as 1%. If that was the case everyoen would play them because factoring in human error the "better" talent would never be better if that was the case.

[Banard]

(1) First you get to choose between utility or dps/heal talents in the same row.

(2) Specific mobs reacting differently to specific classes, raids splitting in groups that have tasks to forfill with every class using it's attunement (utility or dps) to tackle the challenge. I'd also be interested to maybe see the offspec be of use in raids, but that's going even further in making the game more complex.

@ (1) no...it be horrible....you will have pvpers picking so much utility it be ...horrible....you will have raiders picking no utility and qqing when they are selected to do so.

@(2) this is a mechanic they had but removed. mage tanking in gruul, locked for leo, SP for mind control in naxx (and blackrock foundry) but this would be a change of blizzard philosophy of "bring the player not the class".

I also think this should occur and that philosophy should be abandoned but i thnk that is a different subject and don't see it making talent trees more "engaging".

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I change my talents constantly on my resto shaman.

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and is that fun? is that engaging? do you feel like its an awesome part of wow and you cannot live without it. do you log to change your talents?

[Echocho]

I think we should have a complete overhaul of the talent system. Make it something more permanent that greatly change how you play your character. Maybe you could go down a path for mobility, one for survivability, one where you can micromanage and tweak your rotation, one for profession boosts, stuff like that.
Make it so that multiple cookie cutters can exist, not just one. Complexity adds depth.

[Schizoide]

Like I've been saying since MoP, the "new" talent system brilliantly achieves all their design goals; removing inconsequential talents for +1% to some ability, reducing unnecessarily confusing complexity, and making builds much easier to understand.

The design and implementation of the talents, not so much. Most tiers have an obvious choice for all players in all scenarios, and some PvE talents are blatantly PvP-only, even in Legion with a whole separate PvP talent panel.

Oh, and the new artifacts brought those stupid +1% talents back. So that's /<-rad.

[Katchii]

MoP system was better IMO. The system in Legion feels too much like a "build your own [class]" rather than a decision about choice.

IMO Blizzard should know and dictate exactly how a class should be played at it's core, and every person playing that class has the same base abilities. The talents should add some utility, convenience or maybe augment an ability with some utility effect (stun, CC, range increase, etc...).

They're making it more difficult on themselves trying to balance every one of these talents and the number of builds each spec can have rather than balancing the base class and then adding some flavor with talents.

Talents shouldn't be about which one actually performs better (puts out the best numbers), but which one provides the most fun or best utility/ option in a particular situation

[Banard]

(1)Like I've been saying since MoP, the "new" talent system brilliantly achieves all their design goals; removing inconsequential talents for +1% to some ability, reducing unnecessarily confusing complexity, and making builds much easier to understand.

(2)The design and implementation of the talents, not so much. Most tiers have an obvious choice for all players in all scenarios, and some PvE talents are blatantly PvP-only, even in Legion with a whole separate PvP talent panel.
.

@1 yes, from that perspective the new talent system is perfect. It achieved that goal.

@2 this is what i been trying to highlight...and its now been years and three xpacs of this talent system. Balancing is NOT going to occur. There needs to be a next stage, another evolution...i like to take the simple approach and bake it in. That being said...for some talents its more back it BACK in.

[Staalsy]

@ (1) no...it be horrible....you will have pvpers picking so much utility it be ...horrible....you will have raiders picking no utility and qqing when they are selected to do so.

@(2) this is a mechanic they had but removed. mage tanking in gruul, locked for leo, SP for mind control in naxx (and blackrock foundry) but this would be a change of blizzard philosophy of "bring the player not the class".

I also think this should occur and that philosophy should be abandoned but i thnk that is a different subject and don't see it making talent trees more "engaging".

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and is that fun? is that engaging? do you feel like its an awesome part of wow and you cannot live without it. do you log to change your talents?

I think changing talents to suit different types of situations is perfectly fine. If your a poor player I get it, but the cost of tomes does not bug me in the least.

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[Ghâzh]

No it is not an improvement at all. It is the same illusion of choice we have seen before.

Welcome to life my friend. There's no choice, it's all an illusion. You will always pick the best option in any situation based on the information available to you. Even if you pick the "wrong" option you do it because you think it's the "right" thing to do. I'd rather have the illusion than nothing at all. Please elaborate a better system, would you rather have no talents at all?

[Reivur]

If this thread has taught me anything its that a good portion of people do not understand what "cookie cutter" is meant to mean. The talent system was designed, or so they claimed, to give you play-style choices.

Choosing between having AoE or Single Target in an encounter is not a 'style choice', its a "am I a gimp or not" choice. This is a common issue for MANY specs. If you are having to adjust each time due to this talent step, then ultimately, it isn't about choice, its about how cheap or prepared you are. It is not engaging. If they did a better job with making talents equivalent within a single tier as in having fundamentally similar applications towards one another it would be appropriate, but they don't.

Example of a good talent tier:
Frost, with Bonechilling (Stacking damage mechanic based on hit that's single target oriented), Lonely Winter (Opt out of a pet), and Ray of Frost (Try to find an impactful time for a long single target window.)

Are these numbers tuned right? Not necessarily. Are they balanced in proportion to the rest of the trees or interactions? Some would argue not, especially with the Glacial Spike gimmick as of late. But they offer style CHOICES. The concept is good, even if its not executed perfectly.

A Terrible Talent Tier:
Stampede (Burst AoE damage Window)
Killer Cobra (Single target weaving with cobra shot and kill command during bestial; best paired with Aspect of the Wild)
Aspect of the Beast (Upkeep bleed that applies to Kill Command that allows you to be lazy. Not tuned correctly to be competitive, but even with a numbers fix...)

Even with a numbers fix, there's no equivalent. Killer Cobra and Aspect of the Beast simply cannot touch Stampede's burst or application in any situation that involves more than one target. Similarly to make Killer Cobra not useless, Stampede can't touch good Killer Cobra weaving on single target, especially when the Hunter gets more crit and gets more Dire resets for Wrath. So even ignoring Aspect of the Beast and Cobra conceptually being okay in that tier, Stampede is a shit fit.

And its not unique to hunters. This is cookie-cutter central.

[omeomorfismo]

Literally the first words in the post you quoted were "No one is advocating for the old talent tree"

then why write an untrue fact?

Specs are far more cookie cutter now than they have ever been. Anyone who has played BC and Wrath knows this

if you dont want advocate then dont advocate yourself...

[Akka]

I think we should have a complete overhaul of the talent system. Make it something more permanent that greatly change how you play your character.

Reminds me of a system we had a few years ago...