Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Gaidax]

We can't even kill Normal at the moment as half the guild dies on jump and rush mechanic on the dog.

We went from having fun in HEROIC EN to not being able to progress in Normal ToV.

How is that even right?
How can you not see this instance is over tuned as fuck.

I know you don't give a fuck as you are a mythic raider but maybe try to see it from someone else's perspective that doesn't want to be locked up for a 4 nights a week to be wiping on bosses for 5 hours a day.

Well then, it sounds like a "you" problem? Get better? I mean really what kind of terrible mechanics you have on Guarm that is so OP? Half of your raid dies on rush? Did you like try, I dunno, literally sidestep it??

[Deleted]

We can't even kill Normal at the moment as half the guild dies on jump and rush mechanic on the dog.

We went from having fun in HEROIC EN to not being able to progress in Normal ToV.

How is that even right?
How can you not see this instance is over tuned as fuck.

I know you don't give a fuck as you are a mythic raider but maybe try to see it from someone else's perspective that doesn't want to be locked up for a 4 nights a week to be wiping on bosses for 5 hours a day.

- - - Updated - - -



Thats what Normal and Heroic EN was as well.
Now we go from stuff we can do on Heroic to stuff we can't even do on Normal.

How can you not see this?

My friends aren't people that belong in LFR and we had no issues getting Heroic EN on farm but we can't get past the 2nd boss in Normal ToV and we can't get passed Odyn in Heroic.

We went from 1 extreme to the other.

This.

The tuning for normal TOV is nowhere near it should be for the intended audience.

ToV normal is harder than EN HC but drops same gear as EN normal. Theres no way a pure F+F normal runner guild is clearing it.

[Sonnillon]

Normal doggy is more difficult than anything in HC EN and drops shit.

Yes, it drops lower ilvl item. As someone stated in some post that it's the thing what happens when a tier is split like it is right now.

However Guaram is only difficult when you fail on the mechanics. EN just doesn't offer challenging mechanics on heroic or normal, I am sorry but so it is. What can you expect from the fight which combines elements from Butcher and Durumu style encounters?

[fabonaut]

I agree with most of you, TOV is definitely a massive step up in terms of pure numbers. Mechanics, I don't think so, except for Helya. I raid with a rather casual guild who had no problems in normal, but was unable to defeat Odyn heroic. Which is fine. The fights are actually really interesting and, except maybe for Guam. We all really liked it and actually enjoyed the wiping. It was fun. It's a really cool raid.

I think the only weird thing is the loot or the gearing in legion in general. I have never felt to outgear a current raid tier so quickly as in EN hc, without even a single member having killed a mythic boss (cross-realm raid group). I feel like there are way too many ways to gear up and way too much rng involved (legendaries, warforging, titanforging), so it has to be a nightmare to tune new raid mechanis and numbers with regard to the ilvl salat bowl that legion currently is. So looking at the ilvl drops from TOV, you can't help to think that something's not quite right...

[Deleted]

Spoiler alert: You are not supposed to stand in the way of Guarm when he charges.

It's like Durumu in LFR back in ToT, it doesn't fucking matter if it's LFR or Heroic(when hc was highest diff.), you stand in the big bad shit = You dead.

The mild aoe that you get anyway is unhealable at low gear levels.

I'm badly geared (still only 6/7 HC) and watching my guys avoid the big one shot AOE and then they fall over (during tranq) from the damage anyway. Fuuuuck that.

[Deleted]

Well then, it sounds like a "you" problem? Get better? I mean really what kind of terrible mechanics you have on Guarm that is so OP? Half of your raid dies on rush? Did you like try, I dunno, literally sidestep it??

I never died on Guarm, I know how to fucking side step.
Half the group doesn't and dies.

Again, you are a mythic raider, this is not made for you.

I don't even understand why the 3 of you keep replying.
They can make Mythic as hard as they want and raid the ilvl drops by 40 I just don't care.
I don't need this shit in Normal raids where it should be a walk in the park for any casual piece of shit like most people in my guild.

Why do you 3 care so much how hard Normal & Heroic is? Its not meant for you.

[Deleted]

Yes, it drops lower ilvl item. As someone stated in some post that it's the thing what happens when a tier is split like it is right now.

However Guaram is only difficult when you fail on the mechanics. EN just doesn't offer challenging mechanics on heroic or normal, I am sorry but so it is. What can you expect from the fight which combines elements from Butcher and Durumu style encounters?

Much lower DPS and HPOS requirements.

This isn't doable at low gear levels. Its supposed to be a normal mode boss - you go in, vaguely learn the tactics and kill the doggy, collect loot.

it isn't supposed to be a struggle and multiple wipes. Its normal mode.

[Deleted]

Yes, it drops lower ilvl item. As someone stated in some post that it's the thing what happens when a tier is split like it is right now.

However Guaram is only difficult when you fail on the mechanics. EN just doesn't offer challenging mechanics on heroic or normal, I am sorry but so it is. What can you expect from the fight which combines elements from Butcher and Durumu style encounters?

I don't mind that the mechanics are there.

But we went from Heroic EN which was easy enough to Normal ToV that is kicking our ass.
Where is the middle ground?

It just doesn't seem right.


Edit:
And for the 3 mythic raiders in your top 100 guilds that keep replying.

My guild on heroic:

Nyth: 2 wipes
Dragons: 1 wipe
Illgnoth: 2 wipes
Ursoc: 2 wipes
Spider: 5 wipes
Cenarius: 1 wipe
Xavius: 11 wipes

We are not the best players as you can tell by my post but we did that in Heroic EN and now we can't even get past Guarm on Normal.

[Nico3337]

If they die to not side-stepping it just isn't the boss being overtuned, it's them being lfr raiders... it's such a simple mechanic..

[Deleted]

I don't mind that the mechanics are there.

But we went from Heroic EN which was easy enough to Normal ToV that is kicking our ass.
Where is the middle ground?

It just doesn't seem right.


Edit:
And for the 3 mythic raiders in your top 100 guilds that keep replying.

My guild on heroic:

Nyth: 2 wipes
Dragons: 1 wipe
Illgnoth: 2 wipes
Ursoc: 2 wipes
Spider: 5 wipes
Cenarius: 1 wipe
Xavius: 11 wipes

We are not the best players as you can tell by my post but we did that in Heroic EN and now we can't even get past Guarm on Normal.

Its overtuned to fuck mate, you are right.

I sympathise with blizzard on this as it happens because the only people who test their raids are mythic raiders. "Piss easy, carry on" they will tell blizzard during beta testing. Then it hits live and the actual players who do this - 60% parsers, drunken grandmas and the like pull the boss, die to massive damage they cant heal through or DPS checks they'll never meet and boom. Raids a failure.

They did get En normal right tho, so theres is some hope they will fix this.

[Esinar]

We are not the best players as you can tell by my post but we did that in Heroic EN and now we can't even get past Guarm on Normal.

Let's face it though... EN was a joke in terms of difficulty. If anything it was undertuned in all difficulties.

[Deleted]

If they die to not side-stepping it just isn't the boss being overtuned, it's them being lfr raiders... it's such a simple mechanic..

Oh bugger off, its normal mode. You are supposed to be able to clear it with people who don't care, do bad damage, miss mechanics etc. its not a progression run - its for friends and family who don't care much.

Theres heroic and mythic for people who like wiping a lot before a kill.

Theres no way at all that average and bad players are clearing ToV at 845-855 ilvl, which is what it has to be in order to be doable by normal mode raiders.

[Deleted]

Let's face it though... EN was a joke in terms of difficulty. If anything it was undertuned in all difficulties.

I fully and 100% agree with you. It was undertuned like fuck.
But do we really need to go to the other extreme now?
Can't there be a middle ground where its not undertuned like EN and not overtuned like ToV?

[chronia]

The tuning seems quite off indeed, with 7/7 heroic guilds sometimes having issues on normal, 7/7 Myhtic guilds wiping on heroic bosses.

Imho, it should be tuned like this:

Normal ToV, challenging for 7/7 Normal EN and lower guilds guilds, but easy for Guilds that Cleared EN Heroic or Mythic.
Heroic ToV, challenging for 7/7 Heroic EN and lower guilds, but Easy for Mythic Clearing guilds
Mythic ToV, challenging for 7/7 Mythic EN guilds.

[Deleted]

The tuning seems quite off indeed, with 7/7 heroic guilds sometimes having issues on normal, 7/7 Myhtic guilds wiping on heroic bosses.

Imho, it should be tuned like this:

Normal ToV, challenging for 7/7 Normal EN and lower guilds guilds, but easy for Guilds that Cleared EN Heroic or Mythic.
Heroic ToV, challenging for 7/7 Heroic EN and lower guilds, but Easy for Mythic Clearing guilds
Mythic ToV, challenging for 7/7 Mythic EN guilds.

This.

Normal should progress you to normal etc. There is no chance whatsoever that guilds who are normal mode raiders who have just cleared normal mode EN are going to clear TOV. Ever. It isn't doable at that level of performance and that gear level.

I cannot comment about the rest, but I imagine its much the same.

[Deleted]

Oh bugger off, its normal mode. You are supposed to be able to clear it with people who don't care, do bad damage, miss mechanics etc. its not a progression run - its for friends and family who don't care much.

Theres heroic and mythic for people who like wiping a lot before a kill.

Theres no way at all that average and bad players are clearing ToV at 845-855 ilvl, which is what it has to be in order to be doable by normal mode raiders.

It is, as it should be, a step up compared to Emerald Nightmare.
Next week all your dreams will come true: LFR opens.

[Sonnillon]

Much lower DPS and HPOS requirements.

This isn't doable at low gear levels. Its supposed to be a normal mode boss - you go in, vaguely learn the tactics and kill the doggy, collect loot.

it isn't supposed to be a struggle and multiple wipes. Its normal mode.

Leaving loot aside. The name of the raid is Trial of Valor, it is suppose to be a challenge.

The fight might not be doable on lower ilvl(depending on how low) with pure DPS numbers needed to push the enrage. But tactic vise still simple enough, specially for people who can breeze though HC. Tbh raiding outside of LFR should be a challenge even for "casual" people, I don't get the idea why people feel that normal should be pushover, where's the challenge? Yes, wiping is never fun, specially when people don't learn, but when you do learn, improve on your mistakes it becomes fun to push yourself.

I admit we wiped on the dog more then we did on Odyn normal, but the only reason was - we sucked at dodging, while lacking in other sections as well. Period.

If you leave DPS requirements aside on the dog (though with 5 minute enrage we killed it with people dead with second charge (afaik)) then the fight is all about mechanics. We went to the fight with half the people not prepared - not even seen the fight or read about it. If people can listen to the tactics, keep an eye out then learning the fight is not difficulty even when you have not seen it yourself.

[Deleted]

It is, as it should be, a step up compared to Emerald Nightmare.
Next week all your dreams will come true: LFR opens.

Its not a step up, its an unassailable cliff face.

People who have only done normal mode and who sit around 850 ilvl or lower are not killing the dog in ToV. They simply will not have the numbers.

[Hctaz]

Thats what Normal and Heroic EN was as well.
Now we go from stuff we can do on Heroic to stuff we can't even do on Normal.

Just Blizzard's fault for undertuning EN. They made it too accessible. If you're a heroic raider you should be spending the whole tier on heroic content just like mythic raiders spend their time on mythic. Heroic is not supposed to be a joke difficulty. EN Heroic WAS a joke difficulty.

[Deleted]

I don't get the idea why people feel that normal should be pushover, where's the challenge?
.

because its normal mode.

its for people who perform badly and don't care much to see the fights with their friends. Its supposed to be beer league.

Currently, normal mode is massively overtuned. Theres no way at all that people who have just done EN normal are going to kill anything in normal TOV. They won't have the gear.