Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Bocek]

How do you figure?

Tov isn't possible for strict normal raiders.

Not really sure what you mean. This what I'm saying, at this point as normal raider I wouldn't expect to have EN cleared and be 3/7 H EN. This why I say it is a little under-tuned. ToV didn't feel like a cake walk, you had to concentrate and the second boss pretty much took all our less coordinated raiders out. We did even get the Helya and don't expect to get her down next week.

[lockedout]

There were several hotfixes right after the first day to tone down the requirements on the fights by a decent amount. I don't know if people didn't go back or what but it's a lot more easier to make the checks now compared to the first day.

Extra 1 minute on dogs and 91% instead of 85% to adds on Odyn? What else? Helya heroic is the real check in the raid.

[Osmeric]

Not really sure what you mean. This what I'm saying, at this point as normal raider I wouldn't expect to have EN cleared and be 3/7 H EN.

I'm in favor of easy content for average players on these forums, and I'm 3/7 H EN. EN's tuning has been quite acceptable to me.

[DakonBlackblade]

Well this makes no sense though. You first say that the bosses at the end of a raid are tuned with a raid geared with drops from before it in mind, which I agree with. You certainly can beat Mythic Cenarius with gear that's base 880 (I don't agree with the overgearing part by the way). However, how is this different from ToV? Where you need 870 ilvl to beat something that drops 870 (before the buffs at least). Either way, both are dropping gear that's similiar, or in some classes case depending on stats, a downgrade from what they are using. I understand they are different raids, but like I said, they are essentially one tier, and of course as the tier goes on, the bosses are meant to be harder.

Even dating back to past expansions, this has always been the case with gear drops and difficulty. This is really nothing new at all. Not to mention EN is considered by many to be the easiest tier to date, so to use it as a sole comparison and not consider past expansions and raid tiers as well just seems really narrow minded.

You overgear Cenarius because he is not tuned to 880 ilevel, he is tuned for 875sh ilevel (probably a bit lower actualy), when you eventualy get to 880 you are overgearing the whole place not just Cenarius and you see things like ppl zergind Cenarius to phase 2 without ever getting to the double Twisted Sisters at that ilevel. If Odyn, Guarm and Helya were in EN after Xavius they would not require you to have 880 ilevel gear to beat, since they aren't in the same raid and are tuned for a higher ilevel than EN, they also drop better gear, otherwise youd just get stranded if you couldn't manage to beat a boss cause there would be no more progression for you and your raid.

EN being easy or not has nothing to do with this, past raids have always worked the same, the encounters in the raid itself are not tuned for max ilevel dropped in that same raid, not even the last bosses (they tend to be tuned to ilevels close to max wich comes from farming the raid for a couple of weeks), a raid that drops ilevel 870 gear like ToV heroic should be tuned to an ilevel lower than 870, and ToV isn't, buffing the reward now keeps things proper balanced cause you need 870 to kill a boss that drops 875, when you kill that boss you'll upgrade yoursef and have an easier time on the next boss, if you fail to kill the next boss this week, next week you get more gear and things becomes even easier, unitll eventualy you manage to keep progressing on the raid because you and your raid got stronger. Before the reward buff youd just keep droping items that would be useless and never get stronger.

[Advent]

the second boss pretty much took all our less coordinated raiders out.

I think that's what the person you quoted is trying to convey to you. Normal wasn't supposed to be like that. In fact, when it was called FLEX, Blizzard initially sold the difficulty as being accommodating to players in your guild who are, in fact, uncoordinated. It wasn't supposed to be overly punishing to those players, yet this raid appears to be just that.

[Straamibuu]

I'd agree that it is overtuned... started tonight and done 2/3 (normal) so far (pug, I move too much around the world to sit in a guild)... yes it's possible but all of us outgear the drops.... and pug aside it still doesn't feel like a breeze.
If the raid takes higher iLvl than the loot rewarded then something isn't right. Either drop the damage dealt or more preferably... raise the loot ilvl (woo loot!)

[potis]

I do not believe its overtuned, especially Normal is a fucking joke, its just players got too used to EN being faceroll even the HC and now a bit "bigger" numbers they dont use their brain.

Example :
Pug 1: Disband almost instantly cause someone failed despite having insane DPSers.

Pug 2:1 shot Odyn cause in normal its literally "Does your tank have a brain? And move the tornadoes away!"

Guarm though...we had the DPS to destroy him, but they didnt have the brain to personal cooldown the first charge and healthstone the second.

Pug 3, had the brains and it died in 2-3 pulls.

Had to go for helya so Pug 4 the day after : Died the 4th or 5th try.

Of course Heroic is different hence it got a bit nerfed mostly because itemlevel/numbers dont fit (In truth it just shows bad guilds ) but normal is just a joke really.

Wiping a few times or a couple of hours isnt a big deal..

But if a 885-890 guild is wiping on it cause they cant "fit the numbers" then there is an issue..I dont see that reported here, which means it wasnt overtuned, just people got used to faceroll.

[draganid]

trial of valor is gonna get nerfed hard on tuesday. we are 2/7 mythic EN and cant kill odin on heroic, put in 40 pulls this week with an average ilvl of 870. just cant quite get through p3. closest we got him down to was 14%

[Wycked]

Did normal, 1 shot everything. Did heroic splits, cleared everything in 1 night with half of the raid being shitty alts. Its not overturned at all.

[kamuimac]

I do not believe its overtuned, especially Normal is a fucking joke, its just players got too used to EN being faceroll even the HC and now a bit "bigger" numbers they dont use their brain.

what if people enjoyed the tuning of normal/hc EN ? if you are a mythic raider why do you care about normal / hc ?

for all we care blizzard could tune mythic ToV to the roof and keep it there for month - we dont gie a shit about mythic we want correckly tuned normal/hc .

[Deja Thoris]

Did normal, 1 shot everything. Did heroic splits, cleared everything in 1 night with half of the raid being shitty alts. Its not overturned at all.

By shitty alts you mean average 873.6 (more than the instance drops). Despite overgearing it and being ~world top 200 you still managed to wipe half a dozen times on the first boss.

Certainly looks well tuned for HC groups lawl.

[Deleted]

Not really sure what you mean. This what I'm saying, at this point as normal raider I wouldn't expect to have EN cleared and be 3/7 H EN. This why I say it is a little under-tuned. ToV didn't feel like a cake walk, you had to concentrate and the second boss pretty much took all our less coordinated raiders out. We did even get the Helya and don't expect to get her down next week.

The goal of normal mode is for raiders who don't min max, don't boot people cos they are bad players and who are badly co ordinated can kill bosses in a relaxed atmosphere.

A group like that isn't clearing tov (as things stand.)

In fact TOV probably isn't clearable at 850 ilvl. You'd need incredibly good play to beat the doggy down before enrage (and again, the normal raiders we are talking about do not do that.)

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In particular, if you don't need the gear, you might as well down it months or years from now. Like, in the next tier, or in the next expansion.

Yep.

I don't know wtf they are thinking.

Unless its the usual thing of having top 100 raiders tune their normal modes, which i sympathise with. It must be quite hard to emulate scrub guilds in order to get the tuning right when your feedback comes from ensidia and chums.

[Confucius]

Did normal, 1 shot everything. Did heroic splits, cleared everything in 1 night with half of the raid being shitty alts. Its not overturned at all.

amazing feat indeed



now do it in gear around 855

[iky43210]

How do you figure?

Tov isn't possible for strict normal raiders.

TOV is alot easier than heroic HRC when it came out.

People are just used to how easy EN was. Even mythic is easy in comparison

[Khlav Kalash]

amazing feat indeed



now do it in gear around 855

He (they) probably could with everything in his post still holding true. The problem is, it won't be like that for those guilds where that is the end goal, rather than a stepping stone.


We (7/7 HC, no mythic guild, friendly and tolerating lesser skilled people in raid) have only done the first two on normal and it didn't seem that bad, the gf's guild is 4/7 mythic and they wiped on Odyn HC and went back to EN mythic progress. It doesn't sound right.

[kamuimac]

amazing feat indeed



now do it in gear around 855

just precious hahaah "shitty alts" god damit this made my day

[Viking]

It will be nerfed. This is WoW and heroic we're talking about here. You're delusional if you think otherwise. Maybe not this Tuesday but I'd definitely bet it gets toned down by the week after.

[iky43210]

He (they) probably could with everything in his post still holding true. The problem is, it won't be like that for those guilds where that is the end goal, rather than a stepping stone.


We (7/7 HC, no mythic guild, friendly and tolerating lesser skilled people in raid) have only done the first two on normal and it didn't seem that bad, the gf's guild is 4/7 mythic and they wiped on Odyn HC and went back to EN mythic progress. It doesn't sound right.

The problem here is how easy it is to get 4/7 Mythic in EN. In other expansions that feat would be equivalent of 2/12M HFC in similar time frame.

[Deleted]

TOV is alot easier than heroic HRC when it came out.

People are just used to how easy EN was. Even mythic is easy in comparison

What does this have to do with normal mode?

Measuring against HRC is a bit silly, because the game only had hardcore raiders left by then, everyone else had quit wod already.

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The problem here is how easy it is to get 4/7 Mythic in EN. In other expansions that feat would be equivalent of 2/12M HFC in similar time frame.

The problem in normal mode is that in order to beat normal mode you have to not need any gear in normal mode.

Players who have just done normal En and maybe some low level mythic+ are never, ever killing anything in ToV. its massively overtuned and adding ilvl to bosses that these players can't kill does not do anything.

[iky43210]

What does this have to do with normal mode?

Measuring against HRC is a bit silly, because the game only had hardcore raiders left by then, everyone else had quit wod already.

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The problem in normal mode is that in order to beat normal mode you have to not need any gear in normal mode.

Players who have just done normal En and maybe some low level mythic+ are never, ever killing anything in ToV. its massively overtuned and adding ilvl to bosses that these players can't kill does not do anything.

I haven't done normal so I can't give any opinions on that, talking about >heroic version.

I only used HFC because it was recent. EN is probably one of the easiest raid they've ever released cept for Naxx 20