Mages' changes facing 7.1.5

[Fayolynn]

What absolute trash.

I'm not 100% on this but I don't think a 200% pyro is even worth hard casting? And with the loss of ice floes even if a 200% hard cast pyro is in fact a minuscule net dps gain, you'll never be able to actually get one off because now you can't cast and run.

And the best part about all this fuckery? Because of the artifact and legendary bullshit, once you've gone down one path you are stuck with it.

Its not worth casting, in beta they bumped it from 250% to 300% because it wasn't worth casting. They had to bump it to 300% to get people to use it. At this point they need to scrap the effect and come up with something new.

[Woobels]

Its not worth casting, i beta they bumped it from 250% to 300% because it wasn't worth casting. They had to bump it to 300% to get people to use it. At this point they need to scrap the effect and come up with something new.

Correct me if wrong but in beta the bracers were already strong if not the best before they buffed them to 300%? I feel like people are spreading misinformation.

[TyrianFC]

I really like the fire mage changes, but seems many mages are too stupid to realise why they're good for them and the spec.

They are taking steps, incremental careful steps , to do what people want: address rop being so strong, and address the huge difference between combustion phase and non-combustion phase. They can turn a few numbers nobs anytime to up damage if deemed necessary again. But the principle of their changes is what's most important in first ptr build, and that's sound. And I like a all the new talent changes. DB talent is great. New flame on is fine.

The only change I don't personally like because I'm selfish is cauterize.i like having it up a bunch of times per fight if needed, and it let's me sometimes play more recklessly. Now I'll have to be careful about doing this if it's only once available in most fights . I understand why they nerfed it however.

Please think, before you mindlessly complain, please mages. There's more to think about than 'wah wah my number coefficient for x talent went down'.

Their goal is clearly to reduce the discrepancy between rop/combustion periods VS non rop/combustion periods. And that's a GOOD thing for the spec and players.

[stevenho]

Just spent 90 mins fighting a dummy in class hall on PTR.
The nerf is M A S S I V E. Not even gonna comment about loss of ice floes.

[camicio]

I really like the fire mage changes, but seems many mages are too stupid to realise why they're good for them and the spec.

They are taking steps, incremental careful steps , to do what people want: address rop being so strong, and address the huge difference between combustion phase and non-combustion phase. They can turn a few numbers nobs anytime to up damage if deemed necessary again. But the principle of their changes is what's most important in first ptr build, and that's sound. And I like a all the new talent changes. DB talent is great. New flame on is fine.

The only change I don't personally like because I'm selfish is cauterize.i like having it up a bunch of times per fight if needed, and it let's me sometimes play more recklessly. Now I'll have to be careful about doing this if it's only once available in most fights . I understand why they nerfed it however.

Please think, before you mindlessly complain, please mages. There's more to think about than 'wah wah my number coefficient for x talent went down'.

Their goal is clearly to reduce the discrepancy between rop/combustion periods VS non rop/combustion periods. And that's a GOOD thing for the spec and players.

Yes that is what they are doing by nerfing the damage during ROP/Combustion periods. Or did this fly over your head? You say they can adjust the numbers, which is true but they are just adjusting the nerf to be less of a nerf. It just means less damage at the end of the day.

[sosaria]

I really like the fire mage changes, but seems many mages are too stupid to realise why they're good for them and the spec.

They are taking steps, incremental careful steps , to do what people want: address rop being so strong, and address the huge difference between combustion phase and non-combustion phase. They can turn a few numbers nobs anytime to up damage if deemed necessary again. But the principle of their changes is what's most important in first ptr build, and that's sound. And I like a all the new talent changes. DB talent is great. New flame on is fine.

The only change I don't personally like because I'm selfish is cauterize.i like having it up a bunch of times per fight if needed, and it let's me sometimes play more recklessly. Now I'll have to be careful about doing this if it's only once available in most fights . I understand why they nerfed it however.

Please think, before you mindlessly complain, please mages. There's more to think about than 'wah wah my number coefficient for x talent went down'.

Their goal is clearly to reduce the discrepancy between rop/combustion periods VS non rop/combustion periods. And that's a GOOD thing for the spec and players.

TyrianFC, I know where you're coming from, and I suspected that fire mages would get the nerf bat since the first days of raiding because of the insane burst... What I want to know is now that they're cutting our burn spikes out, are they increasing our base dps to compensate?

Without our current combust dps numbers we're pretty average on the dps meters.

[Helloagains]

Lost like all desire to even play the game now. Convince myself I'm overdramatic, log in to farm AP for frost and log out.

[ssviolett]

Told ya, after all those nerfs we were far from bottom, now Blizzard fixed this
On a serious note - they told they are not going to nerf a spec during the expansion so people wont feel they wasted their time levelling artifact and gathered legendaries, but they did it anyway. What shall we do now? Back to dull world quests again ands hope for the chance of Frost legendary? Level another artifact and farm relics for Frost now? I don't want to do this -_- I think I will just roll my DH, as I wanted to do b4 Legion.

[TyrianFC]

TyrianFC, I know where you're coming from, and I suspected that fire mages would get the nerf bat since the first days of raiding because of the insane burst... What I want to know is now that they're cutting our burn spikes out, are they increasing our base dps to compensate?

Without our current combust dps numbers we're pretty average on the dps meters.

I think this first build is mainly a mechanics pass first, with minor tuning. ('throw some ballpark numbers out there and we'll go from there')

Players are focusing on the latter and ignoring the former. The former is good.

First builds of ptr obviously won't have final and concrete tuning, they need to get the nobs in place before they fine tune them.

I'd expect a couple builds where mechanics changes are forefront with minor tuning, then the final builds will have no mechanics changing and sole focus on tuning. Tuning obviously will be sure to make the spec do appropriate dps overall given the rop/combustion phase nerf.

Players, like several of the above, are being as melodramatic as they are stupid. The world isn't ending.

[Avikur]

I think this first build is mainly a mechanics pass first, with minor tuning. ('throw some ballpark numbers out there and we'll go from there')

Players are focusing on the latter and ignoring the former. The former is good.

First builds of ptr obviously won't have final and concrete tuning, they need to get the nobs in place before they fine tune them.

I'd expect a couple builds where mechanics changes are forefront with minor tuning, then the final builds will have no mechanics changing and sole focus on tuning. Tuning obviously will be sure to make the spec do appropriate dps overall given the rop/combustion phase nerf.

Players, like several of the above, are being as melodramatic as they are stupid. The world isn't ending.

Just curious as to why you think it's good? (not being snide, generally curious)

[Krachaboras]

Ice floes for frost only? LOL

They just want leg boots to be desired item for us .

[Solidpat]

This is really hard to swallow, and I am definitely questioning if I will keep playing the game at all, and this would end my 15 years wow experience. Here are my thoughts.

Week after week I see my fire mage rankings fall behind within my own raiding group because our scaling is not that great anymore. We started Emerald nightmare in a good position, but it is not the case nowadays. On farm bosses we aren't very good compared to melee who faceroll single target encounters. Then TOV hits... like a truck in our face. Frost mages are last on warcraft logs, arcane mages are before last and fire mages are mid pack. This confirms what I mentioned earlier, fire scaling sucks. If anything, I would have expected small buffs to compensate for our scaling issues, not this nasty wave of nerfs lol. All 3 mage specs are subpar currently in TOV, WTF is going on here? The only argument I could find towards nerfing fire mages is that we are good in Mythic+ dungeons, which is true. We are in a "good" spot. But let's be honest, Mythic+ content can go to hell, and I would rather see it gone from the game than be a cause for balance. We do it because we feel like we have to, nothing more.

Moreover, I started playing this game when I was 16 years old, now I am 32. I don't have a luxury to spend 12 hours/day playing this. Plus, this expac is all about WQ/M+ for gear, then WQ/M+ for a chance at legendary and then WQ/M+ for getting BIS legendaries... It never ends. If by the end of TOV mages do not have 1 single spec above the 75th percentile, the thing that will end will be my subscription.

I know a rough patch when I see one, and this does not look good at all for us.

[TyrianFC]

Just curious as to why you think it's good? (not being snide, generally curious)

Not sure what you're asking. It makes sense when they do class changes (especially apparent during beta for expansion#) they stay with mechanics changes and ignore tuning almost completely, with just ballpark or throwaway numbers. As mechanics are nailed down they stop focusing on them and start focusing on tuning pass. It's just how things work.

I personally am expecting they will, in future builds, raisefire dps during non combustion phases (lots of ways they could, eg increase fireball damage. Given we don't cast it during combustion anyway and prefer to minimise it's use in rop outside combustion where possible as well. Things like that. ).

[JIMM-]

I think this first build is mainly a mechanics pass first, with minor tuning. ('throw some ballpark numbers out there and we'll go from there')

Players are focusing on the latter and ignoring the former. The former is good.

First builds of ptr obviously won't have final and concrete tuning, they need to get the nobs in place before they fine tune them.

I'd expect a couple builds where mechanics changes are forefront with minor tuning, then the final builds will have no mechanics changing and sole focus on tuning. Tuning obviously will be sure to make the spec do appropriate dps overall given the rop/combustion phase nerf.

Players, like several of the above, are being as melodramatic as they are stupid. The world isn't ending.

keyword , THINK,

Because Blizzard has such a great track record when it comes to making changes based on feedback received in beta/PTR testing, NOT

Mythic odyn already reported being bugged back in PTR ages ago, what happened today ? No fixes being implemented and we have him bugged out in the middle of the fight n giveaway a free kill, http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...by-latam-guild

my view is, yes, the sky is falling, if those are the changes on PTR, it will remain that way, and the whole fire spec will just die off, so no one will complain about secondary stats being too strong, perfect solution kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

melodramatic or not, numbers dont lie, the mediocre numbers seen on warcraftlogs for trial of valor encounters are hard evidence that fire is already a spec in the middle of the pack, with 7.1.5 changes it will be nerfed into the ground. The sole reason fire mages ranked high from the very beginning is because of the pyro bracers, it got nerfed too ! U are totally blind if u cannot foresee the whole spec ppl invested months into getting level 35 IS GOING DOWN TO DRAIN.

[Avikur]

Not sure what you're asking. It makes sense when they do class changes (especially apparent during beta for expansion#) they stay with mechanics changes and ignore tuning almost completely, with just ballpark or throwaway numbers. As mechanics are nailed down they stop focusing on them and start focusing on tuning pass. It's just how things work.

I personally am expecting they will, in future builds, raisefire dps during non combustion phases (lots of ways they could, eg increase fireball damage. Given we don't cast it during combustion anyway and prefer to minimise it's use in rop outside combustion where possible as well. Things like that. ).

Sorry, I thought you meant some of the specific changes they have made so far are good. I agree with the non combustion dps ... fingers crossed!

[Solidpat]

Not sure what you're asking. It makes sense when they do class changes (especially apparent during beta for expansion#) they stay with mechanics changes and ignore tuning almost completely, with just ballpark or throwaway numbers. As mechanics are nailed down they stop focusing on them and start focusing on tuning pass. It's just how things work.

I personally am expecting they will, in future builds, raisefire dps during non combustion phases (lots of ways they could, eg increase fireball damage. Given we don't cast it during combustion anyway and prefer to minimise it's use in rop outside combustion where possible as well. Things like that. ).

So everything you are posting is conditional on them raising something elsewhere? Is this your first patch? When we see a blue post about a buff we can talk about it, but for the time being, there is none and there isn't a single reason to believe there ever will be

[TyrianFC]

So everything you are posting is conditional on them raising something elsewhere? Is this your first patch? When we see a blue post about a buff we can talk about it, but for the time being, there is none and there isn't a single reason to believe there ever will be

This is everyones first '0.5' patch. Including yours, Princess.

Is this your first expansion? Because the way *i* outlined things does have many precedents as to how they operate preexpansion with mechanics+tuning changes.

[Geldor]

Not sure what you're asking. It makes sense when they do class changes (especially apparent during beta for expansion#) they stay with mechanics changes and ignore tuning almost completely, with just ballpark or throwaway numbers. As mechanics are nailed down they stop focusing on them and start focusing on tuning pass. It's just how things work.

I personally am expecting they will, in future builds, raisefire dps during non combustion phases (lots of ways they could, eg increase fireball damage. Given we don't cast it during combustion anyway and prefer to minimise it's use in rop outside combustion where possible as well. Things like that. ).

I'm not sure if you can call people stupid, because we'll have to see if they really buff something. I think there is no doubt that they are aware that these changes reduce fire damage overall. Why not put in a buff of fireball right at the start to compensate? As you say tuning is easy, so they could up/down it later easily. That would have actually been a proof of what is now just you speculating.

On the other hand, they have recently said that they think fire mages are still too good (even after the pyro nerf), so actually, this could be what they are aiming for. A spec mostly effective for AoE. Reduce our burst, but no major compensation. This expansion their class team is all over the place with balance. No wonder people have no trust, if they just throw out nerfs without any explanation what they are aiming for.

I'm also not sure if everyone has to accept your premise that these changes are good, even if they get the damage part right in the end. A lot of people enjoyed playing a highly mobile, burst spec. This spec will be gone with the changes. The new version could be very easily be much less enjoyable.

You also like all the talent changes? Firestarter is good now? How about Blastwave and Blazing Soul? Frenetic Speed is something you wanted to have? If you have the helm legendary, then yes, the DB talent might be good, otherwise though?

Looking at all the changes: lost mobility, and burst, so far no single target compensation, no non-burst compensation, there is really no guarantee that this will go in the direction you are thinking it will.

Have a look at all the class changes they have done so far for other classes too this expansion. They got it wrong at least as often as they got it right.

[TyrianFC]

keyword , THINK,

Because Blizzard has such a great track record when it comes to making changes based on feedback received in beta/PTR testing, NOT

Mythic odyn already reported being bugged back in PTR ages ago, what happened today ? No fixes being implemented and we have him bugged out in the middle of the fight n giveaway a free kill, http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...by-latam-guild

my view is, yes, the sky is falling, if those are the changes on PTR, it will remain that way, and the whole fire spec will just die off, so no one will complain about secondary stats being too strong, perfect solution kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

melodramatic or not, numbers dont lie, the mediocre numbers seen on warcraftlogs for trial of valor encounters are hard evidence that fire is already a spec in the middle of the pack, with 7.1.5 changes it will be nerfed into the ground. The sole reason fire mages ranked high from the very beginning is because of the pyro bracers, it got nerfed too ! U are totally blind if u cannot foresee the whole spec ppl invested months into getting level 35 IS GOING DOWN TO DRAIN.

This sort of melodramatic rhetoric is good for amusement, but does little other than to make you look stupid.

Let me ask you a question: do you think fires overreliance on combustion/rop is a good thing? Do you think some of that should be baked more into the rotation and less into those two abilities?

[angra]

This sort of melodramatic rhetoric is good for amusement, but does little other than to make you look stupid.

Let me ask you a question: do you think fires overreliance on combustion/rop is a good thing? Do you think some of that should be baked more into the rotation and less into those two abilities?

Do you actually believe that blizzard will buff fires damage outside of combustion before this hits live? I've been playing for a long time and I honestly don't have any faith that they will. They do this musical chair shit all the time and I don't think it's by accident.