Should a blood test at birth be standard procedure to confirm who is the father?

[eScar95]

I say yes. One of my older brothers was certain it was his kid. But, my mother told him to get a DNA test. Sure enough, the kid wasn't his. Dodged a bullet.

[Deleted]

then i agree, the woman should not be able to block it, but it should not be mandatory, only if the father wishes it or the courts need it

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oh i understand you now, thanks
i dont see it as suspicion, i see it as a preference
the man prefers to only raise a child he knows is his
the only way to know is to test
so he should be able to ask for the test and not be denied
some men dont have this preference and should not be forced to have the test done if they dont wish to

Just like i do not see a mandatory paternity tests as "all woman a whores" but rather as a reassurance for the males that they are not raising someone that is not their offspring.

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a) even without looking at the genetic makeup of the parents, the odds of a child having a genetic defect is significantly higher than 0.01%. Including the parents, who may be asymptomatic carriers of what may be passed on as a genetic defect, the issue becomes a very real possibility.

b) raising a child with a genetic defect often leads to a heavy burden of emotional/financial/<insert your own -al descriptor> on the parents.

c) there's a reason why a woman doesn't need to be suspicious if the child is theirs. If I need to explain this to you, any further discussion is pointless.

a, That is not what i have said, i said most genetic defects. That means that given any single genetic defect the chance is below 99.99% that they have that one. So that particular test was done even though the chances it was positive was much smaller then that of raising a child that is not yours.

b Raising a child that isn't your own also leads to a heavy burden of emotional/financial/<insert your own -al descriptor> on the male that isn't the father.

c There is a reason why a male does need to be suspicious if the child is theirs, If i need to explain this to you , any further discussion is pointless.

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If you've got so little trust in women that you feel the system has to be changed to make sure it doesn't happen.
Don't have kids and don't date women, you obviously don't trust them enough not to cheat. That's the only advice I can give on your view.

That is really besides the point, this is only character assassination /slowclap. My advice to you is to try harder and come up with actual points as to where i would be wrong.

[Spectral]

I'm in favor of genetic testing for health purposes at birth. As microarrays and/or Next-Gen Sequencing become increasingly cheap and accessible, the cost-benefit analysis towards whole genome sequencing or at least significant sequencing becomes strongly tilted towards just testing everyone. Modern EMRs and other software allows this information to be stored as a genomic database while maintaining patient privacy.

In order to most effectively apply this sort of data, genetic counselors, pathologists, and other professionals need access to genetic pedigrees. Even if someone wasn't explicitly looking for parenthood, a mismatch would be obvious.

At that point, we run into what the moral imperative is for informing parents; my inclination would be to say that parents have a right to know if they ask, but that medical professionals have an obligation to not violate privacy/confidentiality if the parents don't ask.

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If males should be more suspicious of their partners by default, is this what you are saying? Why do they have to even ask for it? Like i said, checking for most genetic defects isn't really needed i would say 99.99% of the time, yet we still do it.

I think you might not be sufficiently informed about the power of genetic data at this point; we're not just looking for genetic defects that guarantee problems (e.g. cystic fibrosis, Huntington's, etc.), but for allelic variants that increase risk of diseases, particularly for cancers. Having that genetic profile banked can help identify potential cancers and the appropriate treatments more quickly. While this is still in its relative infancy, as computational power and predictive analytics improve, these are going to be important tools in personalized medicine.

[Muzjhath]

Just like i do not see a mandatory paternity tests as "all woman a whores" but rather as a reassurance for the males that they are not raising someone that is not their offspring.
-As it's about the same point-
That is really besides the point, this is only character assassination /slowclap. My advice to you is to try harder and come up with actual points as to where i would be wrong.

The only reason I can see for having systematic paternity tests is that you don't trust women not to cheat on their SO. Thus lying about who is the father.
Does it happen, yes. Which is unfortunate and it shouldn't happen. But that's not a reason to turn the system into one of mistrust.
(Since, as stated. Checks are done for genetic disorders and such anyway and you can be a carrier without presenting symptoms and have had family that has been for generations).
The only reason I can see for it is all out misogyny of not trusting women as a whole. I say as a man.

I do agree, as state above, that if a man wants a paternity test a woman shouldn't be able to block it. But making it systemic just scares the crap out of me based on what that'd insinuate.

[Deleted]

I'm in favor of genetic testing for health purposes at birth. As microarrays and/or Next-Gen Sequencing become increasingly cheap and accessible, the cost-benefit analysis towards whole genome sequencing or at least significant sequencing becomes strongly tilted towards just testing everyone. Modern EMRs and other software allows this information to be stored as a genomic database while maintaining patient privacy.

In order to most effectively apply this sort of data, genetic counselors, pathologists, and other professionals need access to genetic pedigrees. Even if someone wasn't explicitly looking for parenthood, a mismatch would be obvious.

At that point, we run into what the moral imperative is for informing parents; my inclination would be to say that parents have a right to know if they ask, but that medical professionals have an obligation to not violate privacy/confidentiality if the parents don't ask.

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I think you might not be sufficiently informed about the power of genetic data at this point; we're not just looking for genetic defects that guarantee problems (e.g. cystic fibrosis, Huntington's, etc.), but for allelic variants that increase risk of diseases, particularly for cancers. Having that genetic profile banked can help identify potential cancers and the appropriate treatments more quickly. While this is still in its relative infancy, as computational power and predictive analytics improve, these are going to be important tools in personalized medicine.

I was not arguing against them, i was merely pointing out that the chance to have Huntington is smaller then you raising a child that is not yours.

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The only reason I can see for having systematic paternity tests is that you don't trust women not to cheat on their SO. Thus lying about who is the father.
Does it happen, yes. Which is unfortunate and it shouldn't happen. But that's not a reason to turn the system into one of mistrust.
(Since, as stated. Checks are done for genetic disorders and such anyway and you can be a carrier without presenting symptoms and have had family that has been for generations).
The only reason I can see for it is all out misogyny of not trusting women as a whole. I say as a man.

I do agree, as state above, that if a man wants a paternity test a woman shouldn't be able to block it. But making it systemic just scares the crap out of me based on what that'd insinuate.

In what world is not being able to lie about something that is this life changing to be considered as "turning the system into one of mistrust"!? The only time when this would any actual application is when there is very much need of said mistrust.
Should a male not have the right to know if the trust he has put in his life partner is unwarranted? Does a male not have the right to know that the child he is raising isn't theirs? Does the male not have the right to make an informed decision?

[Docturphil]

No.

If you don't trust your wife/girlfriend then you can get a test done on your own time. Most people don't have cheating whore girlfriend/wives. So most of the time it will be a waste of time.

[powerstuck]

You might have to explain that part, in the context of this thread. How is the child better off getting dumped, as opposed to not getting dumped?

Does the father have a right to know? Yes, why not. But don't pretend that it's in anyone elses favor, but the man. Trying to make it about the childs best interest is bs.

It's far from being BS.

One thing I would do in the same situation as OP's coworker...the girl would get fuck all. I would dump her, but I may devote myself to raising the child as if it was mine.

[Laerrus]

Nope, you don't need a test to tell you whether or not you need to be with someone. If you cannot trust her to be faithful to you, then you need to kick her to the curb and go find another woman.

I've already played the cat and mouse game before in a previous fucked up relationship. I saw more than I should have and my gut instincts were proven correct.

[Jotaux]

If you've got so little trust in women that you feel the system has to be changed to make sure it doesn't happen.
Don't have kids and don't date women, you obviously don't trust them enough not to cheat. That's the only advice I can give on your view.

Do you also tell people not to go outside because they could be raped? Stop victim blaming.

[Deleted]

At that point, we run into what the moral imperative is for informing parents; my inclination would be to say that parents have a right to know if they ask, but that medical professionals have an obligation to not violate privacy/confidentiality if the parents don't ask.

There is no confidentiality to violate - The medical information resides with the child, not the mother, therefore the parents should be told.
Or if you think the non biological father shouldn't be told, you are not treating him as the actual father, in which case, he should be excluded from any information regarding his non-child.

[Faenskap]

This isn't exactly equivalent. In the subject of the topic a cheating woman is committing paternity fraud. In your examples the guy cheating in commits no such thing and the one committing wrongdoing that should (and in this case is) criminalized is also the woman. And whether men cheat more or not is inconsequential, their cheating does not result in a lifelong fraud that fucks them over financially, emotionally (should they eventually find out), legally (if they find out after some years they are still legally bound to the child of another man anyway) and may fuck them over in terms of actually procreating and continuing their genes, which to some people is important because instinct and what not (if they don't find out and settle for that one child they think is theirs). Again, cheating isn't the issue, it's only the cause of the issue.

Why would I care about what Xarim wants? It is more severe though and that's why murder is a crime, while paternity fraud is not (despite other types of fraud, even less severe ones, being criminalized as well).

Actions of women ruin a family, just like the actions of men. I'm just trying to make people here see a situation from a different angle. That's because it appears the majority of the (male) posters here want compulsory paternity tests because the women screw men over. I, however, dispute that, as I'm not going to be branded a cheater and liar until a paternity test finds me not guilty. Meanwhile, while browsing more typical women's forums, they claim men cheat, which can wreak havoc on a family too. As severe? Unless they live in a shithole country and give their partner HIV, no, probably not. What I'm getting at, women can't declare all men as family-destroying manwhores because some men cheat, just like I'm no cheater and deciever because some women are.

I do believe that if a man is that paranoid is partner is going to fuck him over, he shouldn't even be in a relationship, much less get someone pregnant

Do I find it all fine and cool if some woman willingly pretends a man isn't the father? No, of course I don't. We already have non-enforced paternity tests, and maybe laws can be introduced as well, such as making paternal fraud, as you write, illegal. Compulsory paternity tests though? No

That's because Xarim seems to be "for the children!" and surely, combating cheating might save the lives of other children, as well as preventing the breakups of nuclear families. Also because he has an agenda trying to hide it under the guide of "think of the children!"

Except, Tim was the one who took care of a child for 10 years, this wasnt Bob i was talking about.
What kind of nonsense is this?? This is about males wanting to be sure that it is their offspring without having to spring through hoops.
Then ask it like this!?

The problem here is that as a male i have no choice other then not having sex if i do not want to become a parent, if i would say that this should go for a woman to that means that im sexist. What im getting at is, the ones you call "deadbeat dads" are the same sort of people that would have gotten an abortion if they could, but they cant. Society is coming down a lot harder on males that do not want to become parents to the point that we put them in jail for not "owning up" to "their" responsibilities.

I do get that people look weird at people who do not want children as it is our primary directive (biologically speaking), but males face these same problems. I think the big difference is that the males have pretty much no say in it, and to top it off, have no idea if the child is theirs. Of course this would not really be needed with most pregnancies, but you can't deny that it is not needed at all. This isn't unheard off. Just like with a screening on a genetic defect is not needed most off the time, we still do screen for genetic defects at birth to save the ones who do have it the trouble of having to find it out at a later date.

And yes, your example is really shitty.

Ok, what do you want for Tim?! For him to continue being the father of a child that isn't his, or should he be able to walk away without issues from the government.
That was a part of my reply/question/I don't fucking remember at this point, to GoblinP - I don't think someone who isn't a child's biological father should face any consequences if he wants to end the relationship to the child, how cruel do you think I am?

I've explained the point of my "nonsense" above, but fine, again:
MMOC men: "compulsory paternity tests to prove women don't fuck men over!"
Me: I don't lie, I don't cheat, don't even fucking think that I do. Woman doesn't equal cheater
Women's forums: "my boyfriend cheated on me!" "My boyfriend too!" "And my husband!" "All men are cheaters!!"
Me: No, not all men are cheaters

The POINT is, don't blame the actions of one individual on a whole gender, but neither you lads nor the women's forum users will ever meet and *gasp* see the story from the other gender's angle. I'm simply trying to bridge the gap. There. Clearer?

Then ask it like this?!

Again, that was me replying to GoblinP, who wrote

'fathers'

which prompted me to inquire as to whether he means a biological father who runs away (and maybe has more children with another woman, who the fuck can tell), or a man who a woman made believe had a child with her. Nothing to with you, Tim, or whoever the fuck, simply me trying to get a clearification
I don't approve of a woman tricking a man into being a father for a child that isn't is, can you understand that?

Does it suck for men when a woman gets knocked up after a one-night stand and they don't want to be parents? Yes, I don't approve of that either (mostly because I don't understand why women glorify being a single parent. Me? I would have killed myself, but hey). I don't think some sort of "financial abortion" for men is a stupid idea. There are many kinds of "deadbeat dads" (and mothers, I'm nothing if not honest) around, but the ones I had in mind, where those that suddenly break all contact with the children when they are, I don't know, 5. They didn't lose the custody battle, they never wanted custody. Then there are those deadbeat das you mentioned, forced to become parents. I do think that is horrible as well, and indeed, they have little protection and support. However, laws can be changed, such as making financial abortion possible, and as I mentioned to Mehrunes, make paternal fraud a crime too.

And yet in the past it's been childless men who have been taxed because of it in various places.

How? Where? When?

[Spectral]

There is no confidentiality to violate - The medical information resides with the child, not the mother, therefore the parents should be told.
Or if you think the non biological father shouldn't be told, you are not treating him as the actual father, in which case, he should be excluded from any information regarding his non-child.

Right - the medical information belongs to the child. When there's no medical risk or otherwise medically relevant information, medical professionals do not need to disclose the information there to a parent if they don't ask. They're obligated to state something if it's medically relevant, but if the results are "normal", they don't need to explicitly call that out. They do need to make that information available to guardians.

I don't think we disagree here.

[Unholyground]

No. For the majority of babies born, it's clear who the father is, because nobody is cheating. Plus, babies already go through so much poking and prodding so soon after they're born... my 18 month old, when he was born, they were concerned about him having diabetes (even though my wife and I both don't have it, and she didn't have gestational diabetes). Anyway, he was 9 and a half pounds. So every few hours they had to come and stick his foot with a needle to get some blood to test. A baby should not have to go through that, I thought even THAT was unnecessary. Anyway, ultimately, being a father to a child does not need to be biological, otherwise people that adopt would never feel like a father to their children. Parents need to be able to trust each other and talk openly about their lives, not hide scandelous cheating. If my wife was going to cheat on me I'd prefer she divorce me first instead of going behind my back. I find cheaters to be horrible people.

Babies don't even retain long term memories until about 2 years old anyways so meh.

[Deleted]

Ok, what do you want for Tim?!

Very simple, for Tim not to be put in that situation in the first place. A woman should not be able to lie to an unsuspecting "father" that he is the father when he actually is not.

I've explained the point of my "nonsense" above, but fine, again:
MMOC men: "compulsory paternity tests to prove women don't fuck men over!"
Me: I don't lie, I don't cheat, don't even fucking think that I do. Woman doesn't equal cheater
Women's forums: "my boyfriend cheated on me!" "My boyfriend too!" "And my husband!" "All men are cheaters!!"
Me: No, not all men are cheaters

It isn't about the cheating, it is about the offspring that has come from the cheating. No one said that we want it because we think that all woman cheat, we want it to be able to be sure that it is actually our kid. By having to ask for it you have to open up a can of worms that just can not end well. Even if it is your child then you will have a pissed off spouse because you do not trust her. There is simply no way to "win" when you have to ask for it, when it is mandatory then she wont be offended because it is just part of the normal way of doing things.

The POINT is, don't blame the actions of one individual on a whole gender, but neither you lads nor the women's forum users will ever meet and *gasp* see the story from the other gender's angle. I'm simply trying to bridge the gap. There. Clearer?

This is not about the actions of an individual, it is wanted because it will completely eliminate the possibility of the male not being informed.

Again, that was me replying to GoblinP, who wrote

which prompted me to inquire as to whether he means a biological father who runs away (and maybe has more children with another woman, who the fuck can tell), or a man who a woman made believe had a child with her. Nothing to with you, Tim, or whoever the fuck, simply me trying to get a clearification
I don't approve of a woman tricking a man into being a father for a child that isn't is, can you understand that?

All i asked was why you didn't say that much and had to revert to insults as "deadbeat dads" (which is also kind off lumping the lot of them together).

Does it suck for men when a woman gets knocked up after a one-night stand and they don't want to be parents? Yes, I don't approve of that either (mostly because I don't understand why women glorify being a single parent. Me? I would have killed myself, but hey). I don't think some sort of "financial abortion" for men is a stupid idea. There are many kinds of "deadbeat dads" (and mothers, I'm nothing if not honest) around, but the ones I had in mind, where those that suddenly break all contact with the children when they are, I don't know, 5. They didn't lose the custody battle, they never wanted custody. Then there are those deadbeat das you mentioned, forced to become parents. I do think that is horrible as well, and indeed, they have little protection and support. However, laws can be changed, such as making financial abortion possible, and as I mentioned to Mehrunes, make paternal fraud a crime too.

Again, sorry i did not get that and asked for clarification, maybe i did a piss poor job off that too, but hey that only makes both off us suckers, right?! ;P
All im saying is, be clear in what you mean, i have trouble with this too, i know. But its really hard to interpret intonations in written things, specially in second languages.

[Muzjhath]

It isn't about the cheating, it is about the offspring that has come from the cheating. No one said that we want it because we think that all woman cheat, we want it to be able to be sure that it is actually our kid. By having to ask for it you have to open up a can of worms that just can not end well. Even if it is your child then you will have a pissed off spouse because you do not trust her. There is simply no way to "win" when you have to ask for it, when it is mandatory then she wont be offended because it is just part of the normal way of doing things.

You miss that by making it be something systematic, the result becomes a statement of:
"Sorry women, we don't trust you not to have cheated and need to make sure your SO is the father".
It can't be stated in any other way. Doesn't matter if you don't see it that way personally, because you only want to make sure you are the father. That's the message it sends.

[Deleted]

You miss that by making it be something systematic, the result becomes a statement of:
"Sorry women, we don't trust you not to have cheated and need to make sure your SO is the father".
It can't be stated in any other way. Doesn't matter if you don't see it that way personally, because you only want to make sure you are the father. That's the message it sends.

By that logic.... What we are saying now is that we do not think that males have the right to know if their offspring is theirs. How you interpret it is just as relevant as how i interpret it. My way, how ever, doesn't leave countless males raising children that aren't theirs.
I say, just check it, and if the father isn't the father then tell him, he has a right to know.

[Muzjhath]

Men have every right to know. But making the assumption that they -need- biological data to know makes it into a case of "Women cheat men more often than not" on this. As if it was the norm that men need it.
I'm saying that if a man suspects, he should check it. Same if a woman suspects her SO is cheating, she should find out. I, however, leave that up to individuals and not the system.

[Deleted]

Right - the medical information belongs to the child. When there's no medical risk or otherwise medically relevant information, medical professionals do not need to disclose the information there to a parent if they don't ask. They're obligated to state something if it's medically relevant, but if the results are "normal", they don't need to explicitly call that out. They do need to make that information available to guardians.

I don't think we disagree here.

yes, that seems fine - As long as we are both clear, there is not even an iota of obligation to lie, or obfuscate on behalf of the mother.

[Faenskap]

Very simple, for Tim not to be put in that situation in the first place. A woman should not be able to lie to an unsuspecting "father" that he is the father when he actually is not.

It isn't about the cheating, it is about the offspring that has come from the cheating. No one said that we want it because we think that all woman cheat, we want it to be able to be sure that it is actually our kid. By having to ask for it you have to open up a can of worms that just can not end well. Even if it is your child then you will have a pissed off spouse because you do not trust her. There is simply no way to "win" when you have to ask for it, when it is mandatory then she wont be offended because it is just part of the normal way of doing things.

This is not about the actions of an individual, it is wanted because it will completely eliminate the possibility of the male not being informed.

All i asked was why you didn't say that much and had to revert to insults as "deadbeat dads" (which is also kind off lumping the lot of them together).

Again, sorry i did not get that and asked for clarification, maybe i did a piss poor job off that too, but hey that only makes both off us suckers, right?! ;P
All im saying is, be clear in what you mean, i have trouble with this too, i know. But its really hard to interpret intonations in written things, specially in second languages.

Ultimately, it does come down people here wanting enforced paternity tests because some women can't be trusted, thus no woman can fully be trusted, until proven otherwise. How often does it happen that a woman (willingly) lies about fatherhood?

See, I'm not some sort of feminazi who believe women can do nothing wrong and they're all innocent and men are all bad. Men having been lied to about the legitimacy of the childr(en) have my sympathy, however, enforced paternity tests for all births "just in case" is crossing a line. As I mentioned, laws can be created to come down on the women that do cheat, and provide men with stronger rights in case of unwanted pregnancy, I'm not against that, but these paternity tests, just no.

Yes, I also understand it's not always that easy to actually grasp what other posters mean, and I'm not always as clear in my posts as I want to be.

[Deleted]

How often does it happen that a woman (willingly) lies about fatherhood?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ervices.uknews

About 1 in 25 so it seems.. Even if it is 1 in a 100 that are allot of unknowing "fathers".