Tyrande and the Night Elves are hypocrites

[Combatbutler]

elves and draenei are weird. they consider themselves such pure and good races, yet they have by far the highest percentage of people "going bad" and have caused by far the biggest disasters in history.

like orc demon curse, undead scourge and troll empire crap isn't even close to the same level as elves and draeneis legion related affairs.

Azeroth still exists, Draenor on the other hand is done for, so no the elves haven't stooped to the level of the orcs.

[ravenmoon]

Azeroth still exists, Draenor on the other hand is done for, so no the elves haven't stooped to the level of the orcs.

do you know what Liadrin says for the horde new WQs in Suramar? i wouldn't think Tyrande gives horde quests according to the 7.1 videos, would be interesting to see what she says.

[Combatbutler]

do you know what Liadrin says for the horde new WQs in Suramar? i wouldn't think Tyrande gives horde quests according to the 7.1 videos, would be interesting to see what she says.

She is very worried for the civillians and sents you out to protect them in some cases, make sure they escape etc , she sounds quite passionate about it.

[DemonHunter18]

Make Tyrande great again!

I don't have high hopes for her unfortunately. then again, she was at her best when Illidan was around so there might be some hope there.

[Zandalariprelate]

it's not that you're wrong, but your conclusion is missing one vital observation. Blizzard want the night elves to hate the nightborne. And are at best setting up the nightborne to ally with the blood elves, or at least be independent of the night elves.

I know it's not what you like to hear, but seeing none of us knows what is coming, the early indication is Tyrande is not amicable or very accepting of her ancient kin. There are many ways blizzard could have shown this, could have done it the optimistic way. friendly way.. unless they are realling delving deep and detailed into Tyrande's personality and showing a journey that will bring out both more of Tyrande and her and her people's connection to the nightborne - but I don't think blizzard get that detailed or deep into their characters. So

Is hard to forgive the same elves that lock in that burble while the legion was invading the world, would be like the Thrall orcs were forgiving and accepting terongor, cho gall, guldan an nerzhul after all the things they do not only to draenor also azeroth

but note that she didn't come to help because the shal'dorei were killing their own people, she observes once she has decided to help that the situation is worse than she initially thought..as the shal'dorei are killing their own people. Tyrande is new to the place, we already knew the things the nightborne under Elisande's leadership deal with the legion were doing to their people, Tyrande now discovers this after she's arrived and we observe her initial reactions in the Elven camp outside. It is AFTER we hear her comment.

This is why the blood elves are here, but for the night elves it seems more personal because of the previous interactions in Shal'aran. I wonder what Liadrin says to horde players in the Suramar dailies, i'd be a little surprised in a sense if Tyrande is also giving the dailies for the horde. Judging from the archaeology quests, the blood elves seem to be interested in also gaining magical secrets and power. Tyrande talks about helping the shal'dorei and intervening in shal'dorei killing shal'dorei or ending Elisande's reign, despite her initial cautious and a bit cold reception of Thalyssra, this adds to the excitement and genuine desire the night elf druids seem to have to help the nightborne. And though their kin just destroyed their stronghold and they want revenge on them, the Moonguard are also quite happy working alongside Thalyssra to end the evil of the Legion and help their kind. Whereas the blood elves seem to tell you that they have their own path and their glory is their own, i.e. their satisfied with their own progress and don't need the nightborne, even though they're trying to get more knowledge. They at least can empathize with the addiction issue, but it's the night elves that helped the nightborne solve that, the blood elves are there to help drive the legion out, and naturally i expect, would expect a recompense for their efforts if we're successful.


This is never recorded though, it's conjecture, whiles its plausible, it doesn't strike me as the case going from the narrative given in Warcraf Chronicle Vol 1 and in Gamescome/Blizzcon 2015 panels on the nightborne and Suramar. We're over-reading into Tyrande's response, and I conclude she is initially very guarded and on the upset side, as far as she knows, they hid in a shield - she doesn't know the details of what happened yet. I'm willing to bet she doesn't know they saved them by sealing the second portal, nor does she know they thought the world lost. According to the account, the sundering is happening as the shield is going up. So somwhere between sealing the portal and the shield going up, Ravencrest's Suramar army reaches Zin'Azshari and Malfurion is successful.

The Suramar night elves are not painted as evil or cowardly, nor despicable for saving their city, they are described rather heroically for it in Chornicles, so the conclusion is that Tyrande doesn't know all the details yet.


this is where Aquamonkey or Mace comes in handy with quotes. WotA and several other sources, tell you outright the demons destroyed the cities, murdering the people there and draining them of life essence and magic, the sundering reduced what was already in ruins to even more ruins. The demons ended their civilization, the sundering probably just made it irrecoverable without magic. This is in the lore. Also when you say Suramar, you are also including those that went to Zin'Azshari - they were also from Suramar, now you hear the story of those that didn't march on the capital, and they were also doing something very important. It is not shameful to save a city and millions of lives, and as it turns out, they maintained the city intact, unlike the highborne in Eldre'thalas over 10k years, that is no easy feat - and because of that all night elf kind have new hope of rebuilding and restoring things right, you can imagine many would be reminded of how good the things they built were back then - it's an amazing city, certainly worth saving if possible.

Again think of it realistically, what war, no matter how disastrous have you ever seen EVERYONE come out to fight? None. Some pick up arms and press an offensive, others stay behind to look for other solutions or to defend. You have to defend those less capable, women, children, elderly, those unable to fight for starters, not everyone heads off an attack.

The issue here is that Tyrande atm thinks all they did is hid, that they willingly ignored and left all to perish - at least that would explain a meausre of her apparent scorn, but we know that's not the case. So we can conclude Tyrande is not aware of their side of the story fully yet. We are told, the shield came up to protect the city from the sundering and the demons, we are also told the reason they stayed there is because they thought the world lost and overrun, that there's was the last bastion remaining to the extent that when they ran out of food, they turned to magic to provide the energy for their bodies rather than risk lowering the shield. This tells me that they were convinced there was nothing out there.

Were they cowards? No ! I don't think so, they are showing right now that they're not, and we are told to remind them of their ancient heritage, their noble heritage when we start the Suramar quest line - they are to remember they stood against the demons and fought, and also triumphed. They remember those who gave their lives to keep the city safe.

That's what everyone fights for, to survive, and save from destruction, they managed to do that.. "hey, the world is crumbling before us, push the button to raise the shield before we're all destroyed" .. "no, lets wait to see if anyone else has survived, lets send out parties to check just in case.." " are you mad? there's no time can you not feel the very earth coming apart right now.. RAISE THE SHIELD!"

that's not cowardly to me. They saved thousands of lives and their city, wanna bet that if the night elves could have managed it, they'd have done so for every night elf city. That Tyrande is mad at them for surviving shows she doesn't know what really went on, she has initially assumed these are evil highborne that just protected themselves and didn't care about anyone else. And Elisande isn't doing anything now to convince her otherwise, however we know from the narrative this is not the case, and actually Elisande now is who is changed from what she use to be. Tyrande doesn't know this yet, she can only judge from what she can see now, as time goes by, she'd be filled in on the details and i'm sure her mind will change.

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you can't reach that conclusion so soon, I'm convinced Blizzard is showing you Tyrande's initial reaction which is what it would be, it will change later. Whether that means we will see a night elf/nighborne alliance is uncertain, or rather unknown and not guaranteed, but it would make us more optimistic about that prospect.

Well Khadgar told everything he knows with the point of view of Thalyssra and despite how is show in the chronicles(Odyn also was portrayed as a jerk and bad guy with helya being the poor victim trying to move forward but guess what? In Legion she change to become a sadic and evil entity while Odyn change to be more in the charismatic and playful titan watcher) same thing happened with the shaldorei even Thalyssra in the cinematic explain that, they choose the coward path because they think the demons would not going after them if they created that burble also there are a lot of world quest about citizens, mages and even nobles who are sucking fel energies like a new fashion season, yes they are a lot of not jerk shal dorei but compared with the nobility which almost the 90% are demon lovers and they are sacrificing the lowest class to open more portals so they have more demons protecting their back. I really like the nightfallen faction but they are pariahs compared with the majority of the city, hopefully after the bloody dethrone of Elisande maybe the people of that city change to good like the blood elf who in my opinion are one of the more interesting races after the clean of the sunwell

[ravenmoon]

Make Tyrande great again!

https://cdnb1.artstation.com/p/asset...jpg?1451147594

I think we now need to see compassionate and helpful Tyrande, we've seen hard nosed, hard core, strict aggressive Tyrande, we need to see High Priestess - and also what the priesthood was like back in the night elven empire days.

They could have her going into the city herself, winning the lost flock of Elune back , in their most desperate hour, where despair and terror now dominate their once tranquil city. The light of Elune shining forth brinign hope, shade would be brilliant here. The nightborne lost their way, trapped in a city with only the arcane, they went further into it, rather than the goddess, but the goddess has heard their suffering, and calls them to turn from any form of slackness and cohorting with demons, rise up above their fears, and take the fight to the demons.

As she moves through the city, would be cool if it starts to wake up too in ways that the arcane alone could not do, showing how night elf societies intertwined the magisters and the priesthood tightly, - e.g. certain objects, moon symbols, moon gems, start having out lines glowing.. like a part we hadn't seen yet. They'd need to give a strong example of Tyrande's heart being softened in the face of an immesurable level of suffering she witnesses a group of shal'dorei suffering at the hands of demons, softening her heart to help her people , even acknowledging them once more.. as she rescues them with the light of Elune glowing, shafts of moonlight and starlight cascading, the arcane stars from the nightwell glowing with purified vigor and exploding all over demons as Tyrande's arrows glow a silvery white of pure moon and starlight as they target her enemies.

Back in the refuge, so strong is presence of Elune around her, the walls begin to glow and no hunger of the night well the second indication that the light of Elune has a positive cleansing effect on corrupted arcane sources much like we've seen moonwells purified.

[Eggroll]

I think we now need to see compassionate and helpful Tyrande, we've seen hard nosed, hard core, strict aggressive Tyrande, we need to see High Priestess - and also what the priesthood was like back in the night elven empire days.

They could have her going into the city herself, winning the lost flock of Elune back , in their most desperate hour, where despair and terror now dominate their once tranquil city. The light of Elune shining forth brinign hope, shade would be brilliant here. The nightborne lost their way, trapped in a city with only the arcane, they went further into it, rather than the goddess, but the goddess has heard their suffering, and calls them to turn from any form of slackness and cohorting with demons, rise up above their fears, and take the fight to the demons.

As she moves through the city, would be cool if it starts to wake up too in ways that the arcane alone could not do, showing how night elf societies intertwined the magisters and the priesthood tightly, - e.g. certain objects, moon symbols, moon gems, start having out lines glowing.. like a part we hadn't seen yet. They'd need to give a strong example of Tyrande's heart being softened in the face of an immesurable level of suffering she witnesses a group of shal'dorei suffering at the hands of demons, softening her heart to help her people , even acknowledging them once more.. as she rescues them with the light of Elune glowing, shafts of moonlight and starlight cascading, the arcane stars from the nightwell glowing with purified vigor and exploding all over demons as Tyrande's arrows glow a silvery white of pure moon and starlight as they target her enemies.

Back in the refuge, so strong is presence of Elune around her, the walls begin to glow and no hunger of the night well the second indication that the light of Elune has a positive cleansing effect on corrupted arcane sources much like we've seen moonwells purified.

That's a cool vision for the character developement of Tyrande! I'd really like to see THAT ingame

[Friendlyimmolation]

do you know what Liadrin says for the horde new WQs in Suramar? i wouldn't think Tyrande gives horde quests according to the 7.1 videos, would be interesting to see what she says.

at one point she talks about bringing the vengeance of the blood elves down on Elisande for her forces attacking nightborne citizens trying to flee.

[ravenmoon]

I suggest to take a look at chronicles again because it clearly states:
"Though They had thwarted the attempt to create a new portal, the rebellious Highborne had no plans to join the night elf resistance and continue fighting the Legion. Fearing calamity, Elisande and her followers worked to fortify their holdings in Suramar. They harnessed the Eye of Aman'thul, one the Pillars of Creation, to create an immense fount of arcane magic. Known as Nightwell, this source of power would nourish the sorcerers and protect them from future threats. In the millennia to come, the fount would also change Elisande and her allies transforming them into a new race called the nightborne."

so clearly it was not at the end of the war. Also the in the next chapter after that it mentions that Jarod Shadowsong just became the leader after Ravencrest's death. So they had time to help the resistance but they didn't.

Which actually puts Tyrande and the night elves on the moral high ground over this.. no wonder Thalyssra is rather humble in her response, and it shows something interesting too, the night elves are still choosing to aid them anyway. Whiles I do understand that Elisande and her bunch were fearful of the Legion, hence their decision to turtle in rather than help, I'm with the night elves here.. it's a similar thing that has happened again, the difficult thing to do once Gul'dan approached would have been to fight regardless, like Thalyssra was adamant about, however Elisande takes the "safe option" ... which is cowardly, no mincing. You can understand, even be sympathetic of the tough choice, but it is what it is.

This is probably what Tyrande meant by "I knew where your Order stood in the War of the Ancients, how do we know you would not become the next Azshara, the next Elisande.."

I thought she was referring to the highborne, but the highborne are not an order, they're a cast (they could have been both) but it's possible Tyrande is referring to the decision once they had rebelled against Azshara, to protect the city. Still, while Tyrande is justified in feeling that way, we should not be judging them quite so harshly, as they did save much, and they saved the city too, all are huge pluses, they're just not on the level of nobility that Tyrande and the night elves are quite. Basically they could do with night elven leadership or at least partnership.

The nightborne are going to owe the night elves double time now. You can imagine as high priestes, or newly made high priestess, it is paramount you attack the legion, so much more is at stake, but your own family feels it is better to stay in the house and lock the doors in fear, it's cowardly, that they pulled it off is miraculous, but it does give Tyrande the moral edge.

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at one point she talks about bringing the vengeance of the blood elves down on Elisande for her forces attacking nightborne citizens trying to flee.

who would you say is more a bastion of the light.. the High Priestess or the Paladin?

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One thing I like about Tyrande is her personalities: 1.Sentinel Tyrande 2.Priestess Tyrande
Sentinel Tyrande is more like the W3 one. Strong, independent, fearless, firm and confident like a powerful commander and wears armor like the HoTS one
Priestess Tyrande is more like Knaak's one. Emotional, forgiving, calm, merciful, compassionate and kind like a saint and wears a mooncloth robe.
But we must also consider the fact that after the war of the ancients, Night Elves started to live in the wilds and forests. They became more Amazonian and more savage.
Tyrande has both of these personalities and she uses them on different occasions. Though many may dislike her model in game I kinda like it (except her hair color). It's a mixture of robe and armor, a mixture of a sentinel and a priestess.
Some people like the priestess and dislike the sentinel Tyrande and vise versa. I personally like both together which creates this contrast which is really badass imo. Just like the moon. It has a peaceful light but it also has a dark side.

i think they should give her two outfits, the long robe and the short robe one.. i like it also, all but the high heels, the high heels just look gaudy. i have this image of the priestesses in beautiful flowing robes, similar to the ones we see the highborne statues in Suramar clothed in.

[TickTickTick]

One thing I like about Tyrande is her personalities: 1.Sentinel Tyrande 2.Priestess Tyrande
Sentinel Tyrande is more like the W3 one. Strong, independent, fearless, firm and confident like a powerful commander and wears armor like the HoTS one
Priestess Tyrande is more like Knaak's one. Emotional, forgiving, calm, merciful, compassionate and kind like a saint and wears a mooncloth robe.
But we must also consider the fact that after the war of the ancients, Night Elves started to live in the wilds and forests. They became more Amazonian and more savage.
Tyrande has both of these personalities and she uses them on different occasions. Though many may dislike her model in game I kinda like it (except her hair color). It's a mixture of robe and armor, a mixture of a sentinel and a priestess.
Some people like the priestess and dislike the sentinel Tyrande and vise versa. I personally like both together which creates this contrast which is really badass imo. Just like the moon. It has a peaceful light but it also has a dark side.

She is the high priestess, the leader of the priesthood of Elune, first and foremost. Leave the sentinel thing for Shandris, who is, actually, the leader of sentinels.

Looking at Tyrande and her role now makes me consider two things: either the whole priesthood thing is a farse, or she is too dumb to realize how strong the entity she worships is. She should try to gather as many worshippers as possible, but she is making it very hard for one to even will it.

[Zulkhan]

Azeroth still exists, Draenor on the other hand is done for, so no the elves haven't stooped to the level of the orcs.

Draenor didn't have the support of powerful Ancients and Titan-charged Aspects though. Without these guys Azeroth would be done for by ages too.

[ravenmoon]

at one point she talks about bringing the vengeance of the blood elves down on Elisande for her forces attacking nightborne citizens trying to flee.

can you take some screenshots of both ends of her dialog for both quests?

[Aquamonkey]

They are the priestesses of the moon not priests. They are different. Unfortunately no one understands that even blizzard. The priestesses of the moon use stellar powers and they wield bows for combats. Normal priests do not engage physically like them they are mostly healers. In game priests you see were taken from the Human priest unit in W3 whereas the priestesses of the moon were a hero unit on their own who had no similarities to normal priests. Blizz put their abilities in balance druids unfortunately even though they could have been a class like paladins or druids.

Priests used to have race-specific abilities. NElves had Starshards and Elune's Grace.

[Gurluas]

To be honest, the whole High elf vs Blood elf thing is a mess.
But one thing is for sure, some High elves DID manage to resist and completely drop magic.

This is from Warcraft legends.


Also the image with Dath'remar was decanonized, as Chronicles explained they very slowly became High elves overtime, and Ancient Quel'thalas doesn't look like the modern one.

[Zandalariprelate]

They are the priestesses of the moon not priests. They are different. Unfortunately no one understands that even blizzard. The priestesses of the moon use stellar powers and they wield bows for combats. Normal priests do not engage physically like them they are mostly healers. In game priests you see were taken from the Human priest unit in W3 whereas the priestesses of the moon were a hero unit on their own who had no similarities to normal priests. Blizz put their abilities in balance druids unfortunately even though they could have been a class like paladins or druids.

This, the priestess of elune were some kind of range paladin back in warcraft 3 but blizzard put the priest in game as the unit priest human in wc3

[Aquamonkey]

But one thing is for sure, some High elves DID manage to resist and completely drop magic.

This is from Warcraft legends.
http://i.imgur.com/pPNhYNE.jpg

1) Elf addiction to magic has nothing to do with practicing magic. The majority of elves are not spellcasters.
2) It doesn't say some HElves dropped magic, it says HElves in general did. This is wrong. HElves still practice magic.

All HElves abstained from sucking mana from vermin. Mostly due to (presumably) being absent from Silvermoon and being ignorant about their magic addiction and not being around to learn the new technique. There's a few HElves that even knew they were suffering withdrawal. Then only a few of those that abstained from all magical artifacts.

Also the image with Dath'remar was decanonized, as Chronicles explained they very slowly became High elves overtime

No it doesn't. It says their name eventually changed to "high elves". It says nothing about physical changes. The new Sunwell immediately gave them a huge amount of arcane power.

and Ancient Quel'thalas doesn't look like the modern one.

Chronicle still shows Quel'Thalas with the Burning Crystals. And it says nothing about what time period the picture depicts, the caption doesn't say "Ancient Quel'Thalas."

[arcaneshot]

She is the high priestess, the leader of the priesthood of Elune, first and foremost. Leave the sentinel thing for Shandris, who is, actually, the leader of sentinels.

Looking at Tyrande and her role now makes me consider two things: either the whole priesthood thing is a farse, or she is too dumb to realize how strong the entity she worships is. She should try to gather as many worshippers as possible, but she is making it very hard for one to even will it.

Being the High Priestess doesn't mean she's a Cute White Magic Girl; in her culture she's Wonder Woman and shoots a bow.

It's not a flippin' accident the female night elves were drawn to be the militant side while the males were support/healers.

[Gurluas]

1) Elf addiction to magic has nothing to do with practicing magic. The majority of elves are not spellcasters.
2) It doesn't say some HElves dropped magic, it says HElves in general did. This is wrong. HElves still practice magic.

All HElves abstained from sucking mana from vermin. Mostly due to (presumably) being absent from Silvermoon and being ignorant about their magic addiction and not being around to learn the new technique. There's a few HElves that even knew they were suffering withdrawal. Then only a few of those that abstained from all magical artifacts.


No it doesn't. It says their name eventually changed to "high elves". It says nothing about physical changes. The new Sunwell immediately gave them a huge amount of arcane power.


Chronicle still shows Quel'Thalas with the Burning Crystals. And it says nothing about what time period the picture depicts, the caption doesn't say "Ancient Quel'Thalas."

All High elves used to practice magic in one way or another, even Rangers. Practicing magic doesn't mean they were spellcasters.
And this story takes place around TBC, meaning the High elves are fractured. For those characters, the Quel'danil Elves pretty much represented the entire race at the time. It doesn't change the fact that they dropped Arcane.

As for your last comment..
Read Chronicles. They became smaller and paler when in the EK, before they made the Sunwell.

Also if that wasn't Ancient Quel'thalas, then Quel'thalas was completely rebuilt out of nowhere recently. It makes more sense if Quel'thalas was slowly redesigned over time as the High elf culture evolved. I didn't mention the burning crystals, but we cannot actually see if they have evil eyes or not. It's very likely the High elf crystals did not have evil eyes.

[Aquamonkey]

All High elves used to practice magic in one way or another, even Rangers. Practicing magic doesn't mean they were spellcasters.
And this story takes place around TBC, meaning the High elves are fractured. For those characters, the Quel'danil Elves pretty much represented the entire race at the time. It doesn't change the fact that they dropped Arcane.

Using magic is what a spellcaster does. The elves were suffused in magic it; was a passive thing.

Like blood elves, high elves can use arcane magic, but most do not because most high elves are not spellcasters. Whether or not they are spellcasters, all high elves are suffering acute pangs of withdrawal in the absence of the Sunwell's energies. A few high elves here and there have realized the cause of their distress; others have not.
[...]
Such a low rate of attrition might be considered an argument in favor of simply forgoing magic and suffering through the consequences. Indeed, a few high elves are said to have succeeded in taking this route through sheer willpower: they survived the process, however unpleasant. Apparently certain magical artifacts also ameliorate the symptoms of withdrawal and might, if sufficiently powerful, be able to suppress them altogether. (WC Encyclopedia)

Only a few HElves even realized why they were suffering. Most were completely ignorant. Then only a few of those abstained through sheer willpower.

As for your last comment..
Read Chronicles. They became smaller and paler when in the EK, before they made the Sunwell.

That was them being cut off from the Well of Eternity. It had nothing to do with them becoming high elves, which is what happened after they ignited the Sunwell.

Also if that wasn't Ancient Quel'thalas, then Quel'thalas was completely rebuilt out of nowhere recently. It makes more sense if Quel'thalas was slowly redesigned over time as the High elf culture evolved. I didn't mention the burning crystals, but we cannot actually see if they have evil eyes or not. It's very likely the High elf crystals did not have evil eyes.

"The Burning Crystals - the green floating objects to the west of the Sunspire here - have long been used to power the isle's experimentations."

[ravenmoon]

They are the priestesses of the moon not priests. They are different. Unfortunately no one understands that even blizzard. The priestesses of the moon use stellar powers and they wield bows for combats. Normal priests do not engage physically like them they are mostly healers. In game priests you see were taken from the Human priest unit in W3 whereas the priestesses of the moon were a hero unit on their own who had no similarities to normal priests. Blizz put their abilities in balance druids unfortunately even though they could have been a class like paladins or druids.

Actually, while a measure of that is true, they won't be called priests if they were supposed to be something entirely different.

Let's look at their history... 10k years ago, they operated in Cathedrals and temples and were priests in the proper sense with a martial side, but the priestly side was dominant as per WotA book. Remember in the last 10k years they have had no temple, nothing like before - in fact Darnassus holds the first temple built since before the sundering.

Their role shifted to a far more heavy martial one, as it was the women that were maintaining the society while the males were druids. In Legion now, it's the perfect opportunity to show the priestly side, we get a temple that they return to in Val'sharah, we get the Cathedral of Eternal night in Suramar on the broken-shore bit which lies on top of the tomb. The high priestess and her order return to Suramar for the first time in 10k years.

It's an opportunity to show the priestly side too. THe legion presents a lot of chances to show the martial side even more, however the plight of the nightborne, thier suffering, oppression coupled up by the fact we're in Suramar is an opportunity to show the sides of the priesthood never before shown and re-connect us to the priest aspect of the Sisterhood of Elune of which we caught a glimpse of in Darkshore in a rural disaster-stricken setting.

Remember, that they are priestesses, the last 10k years have not been "usual business" they needed to adapt, they rose to the occassion, remember for night elves, the long vigil was post-apocalypse , except theres went on for 10k years because of their sacred charge they took seriously.