Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Combatbutler]

actually, it's the other way round we are finding. So far it seems more logical that it's the night elves' language that changed, the nightborne speak the original night elven language, as there's has been the most unchanged and unaffected civilization of the 3 night elf groups we know survivied the sundering. Ofc, group 1 split into 2, with their highborne group going off to become the high elves, no longer in isolation, interacting, also losing both immortality and the virtual immortality characteristic of the night group and as is expected with multi-generation groups with large number of external influences and factors, Thalassian today though similar to the elven language is also different.

Blizz already said they developed their own dialect.

And no, they are not kin to the trolls. Night elves and blood elves may hate each other, but they know they are kin. Not so with trolls, complete change happened, from Troll to Elf, whereas the different elf groups are more a diversification of the night elf.

Yes they are realted to trolls, they are their ancestors and as such they are kin, just as vrykul are kin to humans, or proto drakes are kin to those of the dragonflights.

Nightborne on one extreme - the dark night extreme

The nightwell changed them and their entire culture and existence revolves around it, so I'd say they named themselves after their center of existence.

[ravenmoon]

I think it's obvious that we're going to use the tomb of Sageras to move argus

yes. I suspect Illidan will use the Nightwell to power the portal to Argus. Which also makes me think that Illidan will return to his home city, and probably rule it alongside Thalyssra - which makes partly think the Broken Isle night elves are going to be a separate neutral group of nightborne and night elves with a Capital in Suramar where we will find Illidan, Thalyssra, Farodin and the rest of the nightborne and moonguard people rebuilding their lives and gearing to fight new threats.

I would prefer they hook up with Tyrande and Malfurion personally as I really feel the alliance night elves need this. But knowing blizz the night elves are going to remain junk and half-arsed after this. They were utterly rubbished after WC3, in wow, and my initial hopes that the nightborne might be the thing blizzard was using to raise thier profile and expand them seem to be constantly challenged by evidence of neutrality.

I use to be deluded that night elves were great and could hold their own even surpass the blood elves and other groups.. however Cataclysm largely disabused me of that notion and everything since has done nothing to support that. Night elves continue to be shown very weakly and shabbily, again there is nothing amazing about Tyrande and her people in Valsharah and again in Suramar at Meredil on the outskirts of the city. While I see the blood elves showing style, initiative, lots of new toys, magic, excellence across the board since TBC to current, I see night elves fumbling, stumbling, unable to pull much together, weakened, depressed etc.

I wondered if this is where blizzard wanted them, despite Malfurion's heroics ( and Illidan's own to come) the race is portrayed disappointingly badly, I really thought or had hoped the nightborne portrayal with Elisande and Thalyssra was going to add to the night elves galvanising them, healing a lot of their prejudices, wounds and attitudes so they'd be "go getters" once more. Not just living to defend, but living to excel. Not in exactly the same way as the blood elves, but comparably.

Still I have had no indication that this is the case, so I'm largely considering and preparing for the lesser and more worse scenarios - which include the night elves despite all this expansion to their lore, remain an unchanged faction, with a return to just druids been seen when they're not a focus, like all the time, and constnatly struggling and losing with the sentinels barely keeping up. I had long accepted night elves would not be great again in wow, because they were alliance and the horde was the one getting all the lore boosts and focuses to keep them being played, and with humans being the alliance, night elves who have taken the back seat throughout wow till now, I am beginning to think will simply return there after legion.

Sure we'll have Illidan's heroics, but notice that Illidan is not the night elves, nor is Malfurion, these are individuals that do amazing things, but their race is pretty much in dire straits. If the Nightborne go blood elf - something i think is unlikely but possible, at least they'll get lore development, I'm sure, if they go night elf, they'd likely just vanish like the Shen'dralar have done. IF they stay neutral, they'd at least be kept in the end of legion state.

OFc they could destroy them all, it would not be the first time a good and interesting asset was destroyed for plot sake, and this was the best one the night elves had, - but they are already becoming synonymous with tragedy, you're just waiting for the next disaster to take another swipe out of their already crumbling numbers. And there I thought they had reached a low point and legion was telling their comeback story, their rallying point - like their own turn to get revived after so long waiting.

but no. I am having a suspicion that they're going to be just left. Tyrande will have a few more interactions, Illidan a focusing role in 7.2 but that won't be about the night elves, but the legion understandbly. Khadgar and the Kirin'tor will handle magical affairs, not the nightborne or highborne shen'dralar. Tyrande will have some more appearances as it's the Cathedral of Night ofc, but nothing remarkable - i mean they failed to give her any amazing or substantial role in Suramar in 7.1 - a place I expected to see a High Priestess bringing moonlight and hope to an oppressed and despairing people, with the fury and vengeance of Elune in her other hand against the Legion occupying the holy city and those who would bargain with them. What an opportunity to re-introduce the order to the nightborne, show us an aspect or part of the priesthood the long vigil denied us.. what it is like in a city working hand in hand with the arcane like it did pre-sundering.. especially a clean arcane nightborne/highborne group, cured by the fruit.. what an opportunity missed.

I expect oculeth, valtrois, Thalyssra and co to fade, Thalyssra is already fading, by the end of the campaign, Khadgar is the star of the show. It's not Thalyssra guiding us to Elisande, and after the Elisande encounter, it's not Elisande and Thalyssra, it's Khadgar and Elisande.

But we'll ofc be grateful for at least the lore in the zone.

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Yes they are realted to trolls, they are their ancestors and as such they are kin, just as vrykul are kin to humans, or proto drakes are kin to those of the dragonflights.
.

They come from the trolls, but there is no relation any long. This is a transformation, there is no troll common bond - dark trolls got changed to night elves. the troll gone, new group now. The term "kin" does not apply between trolls and elves. That's my point there anyway.

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The nightwell changed them and their entire culture and existence revolves around it, so I'd say they named themselves after their center of existence.

it's a night existence, always has been, you seem to have an issue with that. This is all i'm saying here. The nightwell made them even more night based, not less. they are the night end of the elven group, while the blood elves are the day end.

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Ah! I am yet to play it on my Draenei mage. I will see it for sure.

well, magitech the draenei did very well, they were far more advanced than the night elves or gnomes or goblins. But then seeing that gnomes originate from Titans, builders of Ulduar etc i wouldn't be underestimating them, and ofc night elf magical empire seems phenomenal.

But something tells me the draenei surpassed the extent of both the night elves and the gnomes, before they ever came to be.

[Rhlor]

yes. I suspect Illidan will use the Nightwell to power the portal to Argus. Which also makes me think that Illidan will return to his home city, and probably rule it alongside Thalyssra - which makes partly think the Broken Isle night elves are going to be a separate neutral group of nightborne and night elves with a Capital in Suramar where we will find Illidan, Thalyssra, Farodin and the rest of the nightborne and moonguard people rebuilding their lives and gearing to fight new threats.

I would prefer they hook up with Tyrande and Malfurion personally as I really feel the alliance night elves need this. But knowing blizz the night elves are going to remain junk and half-arsed after this. They were utterly rubbished after WC3, in wow, and my initial hopes that the nightborne might be the thing blizzard was using to raise thier profile and expand them seem to be constantly challenged by evidence of neutrality.

I use to be deluded that night elves were great and could hold their own even surpass the blood elves and other groups.. however Cataclysm largely disabused me of that notion and everything since has done nothing to support that. Night elves continue to be shown very weakly and shabbily, again there is nothing amazing about Tyrande and her people in Valsharah and again in Suramar at Meredil on the outskirts of the city. While I see the blood elves showing style, initiative, lots of new toys, magic, excellence across the board since TBC to current, I see night elves fumbling, stumbling, unable to pull much together, weakened, depressed etc.

I wondered if this is where blizzard wanted them, despite Malfurion's heroics ( and Illidan's own to come) the race is portrayed disappointingly badly, I really thought or had hoped the nightborne portrayal with Elisande and Thalyssra was going to add to the night elves galvanising them, healing a lot of their prejudices, wounds and attitudes so they'd be "go getters" once more. Not just living to defend, but living to excel. Not in exactly the same way as the blood elves, but comparably.

Still I have had no indication that this is the case, so I'm largely considering and preparing for the lesser and more worse scenarios - which include the night elves despite all this expansion to their lore, remain an unchanged faction, with a return to just druids been seen when they're not a focus, like all the time, and constnatly struggling and losing with the sentinels barely keeping up. I had long accepted night elves would not be great again in wow, because they were alliance and the horde was the one getting all the lore boosts and focuses to keep them being played, and with humans being the alliance, night elves who have taken the back seat throughout wow till now, I am beginning to think will simply return there after legion.

Sure we'll have Illidan's heroics, but notice that Illidan is not the night elves, nor is Malfurion, these are individuals that do amazing things, but their race is pretty much in dire straits. If the Nightborne go blood elf - something i think is unlikely but possible, at least they'll get lore development, I'm sure, if they go night elf, they'd likely just vanish like the Shen'dralar have done. IF they stay neutral, they'd at least be kept in the end of legion state.

OFc they could destroy them all, it would not be the first time a good and interesting asset was destroyed for plot sake, and this was the best one the night elves had, - but they are already becoming synonymous with tragedy, you're just waiting for the next disaster to take another swipe out of their already crumbling numbers. And there I thought they had reached a low point and legion was telling their comeback story, their rallying point - like their own turn to get revived after so long waiting.

but no. I am having a suspicion that they're going to be just left. Tyrande will have a few more interactions, Illidan a focusing role in 7.2 but that won't be about the night elves, but the legion understandbly. Khadgar and the Kirin'tor will handle magical affairs, not the nightborne or highborne shen'dralar. Tyrande will have some more appearances as it's the Cathedral of Night ofc, but nothing remarkable - i mean they failed to give her any amazing or substantial role in Suramar in 7.1 - a place I expected to see a High Priestess bringing moonlight and hope to an oppressed and despairing people, with the fury and vengeance of Elune in her other hand against the Legion occupying the holy city and those who would bargain with them. What an opportunity to re-introduce the order to the nightborne, show us an aspect or part of the priesthood the long vigil denied us.. what it is like in a city working hand in hand with the arcane like it did pre-sundering.. especially a clean arcane nightborne/highborne group, cured by the fruit.. what an opportunity missed.

I expect oculeth, valtrois, Thalyssra and co to fade, Thalyssra is already fading, by the end of the campaign, Khadgar is the star of the show. It's not Thalyssra guiding us to Elisande, and after the Elisande encounter, it's not Elisande and Thalyssra, it's Khadgar and Elisande.

But we'll ofc be grateful for at least the lore in the zone.

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They come from the trolls, but there is no relation any long. This is a transformation, there is no troll common bond - dark trolls got changed to night elves. the troll gone, new group now. The term "kin" does not apply between trolls and elves. That's my point there anyway.

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it's a night existence, always has been, you seem to have an issue with that. This is all i'm saying here. The nightwell made them even more night based, not less. they are the night end of the elven group, while the blood elves are the day end.

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well, magitech the draenei did very well, they were far more advanced than the night elves or gnomes or goblins. But then seeing that gnomes originate from Titans, builders of Ulduar etc i wouldn't be underestimating them, and ofc night elf magical empire seems phenomenal.

But something tells me the draenei surpassed the extent of both the night elves and the gnomes, before they ever came to be.

Illidan already arrived to suramar, I imagine that suramar will be a sanctuary
sanctuary city in 7.2 with all the elves working together under the leadership of illidan !! Like the illidari

I think the demon hunters are well represented night elves and blood elves are all great

[Zaelsino]

... would you really call that being "moved" by their plight? Tyrande sees Nightborne refugees fleeing for their lives, being struck down left and right, and thinks only of how this might be a useful time to test their enemy's mettle. There's no empathy there. Contrast to Liadrin's rather more outraged responses:




I mean, they're clearly depicting Tyrande as colder towards the Nightfallen compared to the more sympathetic Liadrin, not just here but in general. For good reason, maybe, but I think you're interpreting her apathy and mild scorn as something it isn't.

[Rhlor]

Surely lady liadrin teach the nightborne to worship the naaru

[Combatbutler]

They come from the trolls, but there is no relation any long. This is a transformation, there is no troll common bond - dark trolls got changed to night elves. the troll gone, new group now. The term "kin" does not apply between trolls and elves. That's my point there anyway.

Trolls and elves are kin though, distant but related nonetheless, if you want a new breed of elves just pump a troll tribe full of arcane power, boom new elves.

it's a night existence, always has been, you seem to have an issue with that. This is all i'm saying here. The nightwell made them even more night based, not less. they are the night end of the elven group, while the blood elves are the day end.

It is an existence tied to the nightwell, I am not denying similarities of their culture, not in the slightest, you on the other hand desperately highlight anything that somehow is relatable to night elves, despite the fact the shal'dorei stand now firmly on their own, they are neither tied to blood or night elves. You just want to push them into a corner, which looks rather funny to be honest.

[Rhlor]

a World Quest in Suramar where liadrin's asking you to put up posters in the Commons area letting the citizens know the Horde is coming to help them.

[ravenmoon]

... would you really call that being "moved" by their plight? Tyrande sees Nightborne refugees fleeing for their lives, being struck down left and right, and thinks only of how this might be a useful time to test their enemy's mettle. There's no empathy there. Contrast to Liadrin's rather more outraged responses:




I mean, they're clearly depicting Tyrande as colder towards the Nightfallen compared to the more sympathetic Liadrin, not just here but in general. For good reason, maybe, but I think you're interpreting her apathy and mild scorn as something it isn't.

I haven't found a screenshot for the other WQ, but the compassion is in the end speech, and also in the second WQ i haven't linked. Also read the first quote.

[Deleted]

Nightborne are the strongest elves. That's why Tyrande and Lorthemar have to attack together in order to defeat them. Night Elves are basically way weaker trolls while Blood Elves are weaker High Elves. I'm sure Khadgar is hoping that he had dwarven armies or even the Tauren instead of the elves at his disposal.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Nightborne are the strongest elves. That's why Tyrande and Lorthemar have to attack together in order to defeat them. Night Elves are basically way weaker trolls while Blood Elves are weaker High Elves. I'm sure Khadgar is hoping that he had dwarven armies or even the Tauren instead of the elves at his disposal.

Blood elves are defiantly not weaker high elves.

[DemonHunter18]

Nightborne are the strongest elves. That's why Tyrande and Lorthemar have to attack together in order to defeat them. Night Elves are basically way weaker trolls while Blood Elves are weaker High Elves. I'm sure Khadgar is hoping that he had dwarven armies or even the Tauren instead of the elves at his disposal.

wtf bro!?

Malfurion solos them

[Deleted]

wtf bro!?

Malfurion solos them

Malfurion was captured and humiliated by the image of xavius. That tells everything there is to know about Malfurion's weak power level. Want to grow a garden? Sure, call Malfurion. Want to destroy an army? You should rather call Meklin Mekkatorgue.

[Zaelsino]

I haven't found a screenshot for the other WQ, but the compassion is in the end speech, and also in the second WQ i haven't linked. Also read the first quote.

I wouldn't really call that compassion. Liadrin telling Thalyssra and the player that she sympathises deeply with the Nightfallen's plight and wants to save their people/smite their oppressors is compassion. Her getting furious at the murder of innocent Nightfallen and ordering the player to save them is compassion. On the other hand, Tyrande seeing the slaughter of these same Nightfallen as just an excuse to test the loyalists' mettle shows a startling lack of compassion for what you keep insisting are her people.

I'm just not seeing the growth that you are here. Tyrande takes a very pragmatic approach to the Nightfallen; yes, she wants them in fighting condition, out of the city and on the side of the rebellion, but I've yet to see her express the sort of concern for their well-being and their future that Liadrin does. On the contrary, she has some clear contempt for them.

[thesmall001]

The Sunfury that weren't murdered all throughout BC's timeline.

Furthermore you can look for more and better equipement, that doesn't give you more people.

Once again people seem to forget how many High Elves were destroyed in Warcraft 3, including Blizzard. They act like the Blood Elves have an enormous army. They, by all rights, shouldn't. I mean the Night Elves don't really either, but they should still have more than the Blood Elves. Also in 7.1, the Emerald Nightmare raid has already happened storywise, so at the very least Malfurion SHOULD be pretending the Night Elves are in the Alliance by standing there.

At the very least the Night Elves should have more representation of their Druidism (Rather than just an ancient fighting stuff in the background of the quest chain) and Sentinels beyond just 6 of them running with Tyrande at the very end. There should have been Druids of the Claw and Talon fighting alongside Tyrande.

I mean the same applies to the Blood Elves. I love Liadrin but why the hell isn't Lor'themar there?

It's always been my understanding that, due to their proximity from the World Tree, that the High Elves did not benefit from the immortality which Nozdormu gifted them all. As such, it stands to reason (using the length of the Sunstrider line as a benchmark), that the High/Blood Elves procreate(d) a lot more readily than the Night Elves. Especially in response to such a drastic culling. We can also presume that there were many underage High Elves that were sheltered from Arthas's assaults; indeed, the Blood Elf starting zone always gave me the impression of being young novices undergoing our latent tutelage. We've also got to consider that the Blood Elves have been afforded relatively high civilian protection for the last 10 years, and they got to regain a decent % of their population in those who were presumed dead on Outland.

The Night Elves, on the other hand, are still struggling to adapt to their mortality. Wolfheart makes note that many of the chronologically eldest elves are starting to suffer from mortal illnesses. Tyrande and Malfurion have aged from biologically early adulthood to late middle-aged in the 7-8 years between Hyjal and Cataclysm. And between the Third War, the Battle for Mount Hyjal, Ashenvale (the first time), the Nightmare assault on Teldrassil, Ashenvale/Stonetalon in Cataclysm (remember the major school that got 'asploded), Hyjal/Firelands, and now Val'sharah: The Night Elves have had a really bad run of things! And they're losing at all ends of the age spectrum; kids in schools and civilian areas, a large number of Druids, Sentinels and Watchers, their elderly and the young and healthy who'll form the bulk of their generic fighting forces. Arguably, the largest military order the Night Elves should be bringing are Elune's Priestesses.

I'm not saying agree with how the Night Elves are represented in Suramar; I'm also not saying I feel I need to do much mental gymnastics to see how they could really be starting to struggle to put up much of a war-force at the moment. Especially if the Druids are still splitting time between the Nightmare, Val'sharah and Suramar.

[Rhlor]

Malfurion was captured and humiliated by the image of xavius. That tells everything there is to know about Malfurion's weak power level. Want to grow a garden? Sure, call Malfurion. Want to destroy an army? You should rather call Meklin Mekkatorgue.

Meklin Mekkatorgue???

[derpkitteh]

Malfurion was captured and humiliated by the image of xavius. That tells everything there is to know about Malfurion's weak power level. Want to grow a garden? Sure, call Malfurion. Want to destroy an army? You should rather call Meklin Mekkatorgue.

malfurion is a druid who is weak to the nightmare, because it is designed specifically to counter drudism and nature.

against any normal army, malfurion is a god that could take the whole thing nearly single handedly. he's the strongest mortal on azeroth.

[Syegfryed]

Nightborne are the strongest elves. That's why Tyrande and Lorthemar have to attack together in order to defeat them. Night Elves are basically way weaker trolls while Blood Elves are weaker High Elves. I'm sure Khadgar is hoping that he had dwarven armies or even the Tauren instead of the elves at his disposal.

how nightborne are the strongest elves

they are small and look more fragile and weak than the night blood elves

[leviathonlx]

malfurion is a druid who is weak to the nightmare, because it is designed specifically to counter drudism and nature.

against any normal army, malfurion is a god that could take the whole thing nearly single handedly. he's the strongest mortal on azeroth.

Though the gameplay aspect of player Druids then going 'oh ok well I'm going in there and fighting while you stay here' makes it seem a bit silly.

[ravenmoon]

I wouldn't really call that compassion. Liadrin telling Thalyssra and the player that she sympathises deeply with the Nightfallen's plight and wants to save their people/smite their oppressors is compassion. Her getting furious at the murder of innocent Nightfallen and ordering the player to save them is compassion. On the other hand, Tyrande seeing the slaughter of these same Nightfallen as just an excuse to test the loyalists' mettle shows a startling lack of compassion for what you keep insisting are her people.

I'm just not seeing the growth that you are here. Tyrande takes a very pragmatic approach to the Nightfallen; yes, she wants them in fighting condition, out of the city and on the side of the rebellion, but she never once expresses the sort of empathy that Liadrin does. On the contrary, she has some clear contempt for them.

you see the growth if you compare her last week's statements to this one.

Her opening statement when you first meet her outside Meredil last week, to the WQ statements, get progressively more compassionate. The 2nd WQ I didn't quote shows it.. And her speech i linked earlier is marked shift in her tone from the week before.

[Aeula]

Lorthemar appears at the end of the hidden artifact appearance

Which hidden artifact appearance? I've been researching all of those and have never heard anything about Lor'themar other than a cameo in the PvP appearance with the rest of the horde leaders.

Nevermind, flipped to the next page, you meant the PvP appearance.