4 million lose overtime pay and Republicans rejoice the ‘victory’ for small business

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Because you believe its ok for people to take advantage of others.

I'm sure when your current employer eventually stiffs you, you'll come here bawling about how unfair it is.

I do my best to prevent that by being a very valuable employee, with ever rarer qualifications as my career progresses.

You're not being taken advantage of by entering into a contract with an employer for services. He gives you compensation, you provide the services. If the compensation is not sufficient in your mind for the value of the services you provide, then take your services elsewhere. If you cannot find a rival employer willing to pay you more, chances are you overvalued your services, and must either accept lesser pay, or start providing more valuable services.

By the way, don't even start with the "slave wages" which is not even a thing, or "starving to death" hyperbole. The chief health concern among American poor is obesity. Migrant farmers come to the US in the hundreds of thousands, work for below minimum-wage prices, and not only don't starve, but support their families back in Central and South America. Where starvation does occur on this planet, is it almost always where a government, or political instability, not a business, has interrupted the natural flow of goods and services.

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Usually I take a pro-business stance, but I believe that people should be paid adequately for their work, and if you work over 40 hours a week, you should get overtime, period.

I get the arguments against salary pay getting overtime, but I still don't agree with it.

Anyway, I'd tell people, if the company you work for wants to stiff you overtime pay, work somewhere else.

And there you have it. People should look to their own agency instead of begging the government to artificially inflate their value to a business.

[alexw]

Why the left feels it is inhumane to allow employers and employees to negotiate private contracts between themselves is beyond me.

Because employers have rewritten the rules of the game over the years, so that they have the overwhelmingly stronger hand in negotiating such contracts. It's like playing golf with the rules stating that you must wear a blindfold every time you play while your opponent does not have to, and where he starts 100 yards from the hole.

It's what has led to this -

[PosPosPos]

Of course, there are some people who are under this odd impression that if people had to all negotiate personal contracts with their employers, it won't mean all employers can just band up and fix wages, so no matter where you go, you get the same rate and the same mistreatment.

Case in point? Just see the lack of anti-competition laws negatively impacting the customers of non-google ISPs.

These are also the same people who are the very reason why their fairy tale scenarios don't work, by the way.

[alexw]

And there you have it. People should look to their own agency instead of begging the government to artificially inflate their value to a business.

You mean like how employers have used the government to artificially deflate people's economic value?

[Lumineus]

Note this is for salaried individuals, not hourly

I felt like this was ignored, so I quoted it for posterity. This is the downside of a salaried position. The upside, of course, is that you're guaranteed the income no matter how little work comes your way. Sometimes you get paid for working six hours a week, and sometimes you're pulling triple shifts. If you don't like it, then demand hourly pay, get cut to part time, lose your benefits, and subsist on food stamps. Oh wait, that's what happened under the current administration in the name of job "creation." Maybe you should hold their feet to the fire.

[Caolela]

And there you have it. People should look to their own agency instead of begging the government to artificially inflate their value to a business.

Except that's usually not how it works. There's a reason that gov'ts have set up laws and regulations to keep owners of the means of production from enslaving their workers, which they'd do if left unfettered in a so-called "free market".

We have ample evidence of that from the robber baron days of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, before child labor was banned, overtime and the 40-hr. work week, various workplace safety regs, minimum wage, equal pay for equal work, unemployment insurance, and so on. All of which would never have come about through the mere kindness of corporations and employers.

You can't very well just "work somewhere else" when the laws are rigged to enable the entire system to screw workers from OT pay, that with a mere wave of a pen your position can be arbitrarily re-classified from hourly to "salaried" just to benefit the employer's bottom line.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Because employers have rewritten the rules of the game over the years, so that they have the overwhelmingly stronger hand in negotiating such contracts. It's like playing golf with the rules stating that you must wear a blindfold every time you play while your opponent does not have to, and where he starts 100 yards from the hole.

It's what has led to this -

The problem with graphs like that is it ascribes to the fallacy that wealth is a finite thing, and for someone to have more, another has to have less. In fact, wealth grows, and a person with a lesser share in 2010, can in-fact be far better off hand have a higher quality of life, than the person who had a larger share in 1970.

Now if you're railing against the government stacking the deck in favor of major corporations by creating regulatory burdens which prevent small startups from entering the marketplace, I'm right with you man. Minimum wage laws, have nothing to do with that however.

[melodramocracy]

The idea of salaries needs to just go away entirely.

[Ivanstone]

I do my best to prevent that by being a very valuable employee, with ever rarer qualifications as my career progresses.

Did it ever occur to you that there are 330 million people in the United States and their life isn't the same as your life?

Just because you think you're living the good life because of your "skills", you're still living at the mercy of someone else's whim.

If you don't believe me, why don't you go ask all the people that lost their jobs back in 2008 through no fault of their own.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

You mean like how employers have used the government to artificially deflate people's economic value?

Explain how the government not making a law is the artificial valuation and the government enforcing a law is natural?

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Did it ever occur to you that there are 330 million people in the United States and their life isn't the same as your life?

Just because you think you're living the good life because of your "skills", you're still living at the mercy of someone else's whim.

If you don't believe me, why don't you go ask all the people that lost their jobs back in 2008 through no fault of their own.

Did it ever occur to you that the difference has far more to do with the choices of the people involved than some horrible circumstance beyond anyone but the government's control?

[Nilinor]

The idea of salaries needs to just go away entirely.

I am glad someone in this thread actually knew it was meant for SALARIED employees, not all employees. While it still sucks for those getting salaried, it doesnt apply to hourly workers.

[Captain N]

If you don't believe me, why don't you go ask all the people that lost their jobs back in 2008 through no fault of their own.

As one of those guys who lost their jobs in 2008 (I was a plumber) and have discussed it freely on these forums you'll likely be told that it was their own fault they lost their jobs. The excuses will range from "You should have worked harder" to my personal favorite "You should have had a back up skill just in case."

[PosPosPos]

The problem with graphs like that is it ascribes to the fallacy that wealth is a finite thing, and for someone to have more, another has to have less. In fact, wealth grows, and a person with a lesser share in 2010, can in-fact be far better off hand have a higher quality of life, than the person who had a larger share in 1970.

Now if you're railing against the government stacking the deck in favor of major corporations by creating regulatory burdens which prevent small startups from entering the marketplace, I'm right with you man. Minimum wage laws, have nothing to do with that however.

Luckily, thanks to not ignoring reality, we have found that the quality of life has been decreasing as well, and that your manufactured situation simply doesn't exist.

[bewbew]

Because you believe its ok for people to take advantage of others.

I'm sure when your current employer eventually stiffs you, you'll come here bawling about how unfair it is.

Life itself is, in some degree, "taking advantage of others".

Promising a life without exploration is pure emotional melodrama for the feeble minded.

[Ivanstone]

Did it ever occur to you that the difference has far more to do with the choices of the people involved than some horrible circumstance beyond anyone but the government's control?

So by your logic we shouldn't bother with things like laws against murder and theft because everyone can just make a choice to avoid these things.

This is what the whole overtime rule amounts to. The prevention of wage theft. People do have a variety of recourse but not everyone lives your blessed life and have equal opportunity to take them.

[PosPosPos]

As one of those guys who lost their jobs in 2008 (I was a plumber) and have discussed it freely on these forums you'll likely be told that it was their own fault they lost their jobs. The excuses will range from "You should have worked harder" to my personal favorite "You should have had a back up skill just in case."

You should probably pick up a few tips at reality warping, because these are the same people who seem to be proficient with it.

[Rennadrel]

Overtime pay should be mandatory for anyone working more than 40 hours a week, that should be the fucking law. It is here in Canada and I am glad for it, nothing worse than employers trying to continually exploit workers of hard earned wages. And when I work overtime, I get paid $29 an hour

[PosPosPos]

Life itself is, in some degree, "taking advantage of others".

Promising a life without exploration is pure emotional melodrama for the feeble minded.

Yeah, we should all go back to the stone ages and live out the jungle law and survival of the fittest.

Pick up a club and start pounding our chests while at it.

[Ivanstone]

Life itself is, in some degree, "taking advantage of others".

Promising a life without exploration is pure emotional melodrama for the feeble minded.

Living with others is an act of compromise. One compromise is not stealing from others.

Similarly another compromise is paying someone for work performed and not rigging employment laws in your favour so you can skim free labour of the backs of others.

[Vizardlorde]

Why the left feels it is inhumane to allow employers and employees to negotiate private contracts between themselves is beyond me.

because the side with the money has an unfair advantage