I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Zyky]

Topics like this are why we ended up with an expansion like WoD where there was nothing to do outside of raiding.

I'm sorry but there's a huge difference between too much and too little. There is middle ground and you're saying that it has to be one way or the other and it doesn't. Legion is too much, WoD was too little. MoP and Cata had it perfect. They just have to keep dungeons relevant and put a cap on mythic+. There shouldn't be a way to mindlessly grind the same dungeons over and over for high IL loot as long as you can find other players keystones.

[Glorious Leader]

and the topic is basically saying:
> for 10 years we could be hc doing only raid
> now we also have do endlessly grind ap and m+

and some people don't like it.

is that hard to understand?

Theve been bitching endlessly. We dont want to have to run 10 and 25 mans just because 10 man had a handful good pieces. Move to one raid size. Fuck this game up in cata. We dont want to have to cap valor every week. Bye bye valor.

Its only hard to understand why this nonsense was ever catered to.

[Nakotsu]

I have spent a lot of time since Legion launch playing different classes and speccs. I really enjoy the leveling and I am 7/7M when it comes to raiding.
Across the years I have spent a lot of time in World of Warcraft and in the first two expacs iv playind in the very best guilds around.

It could be a fair bit of grinding then, I can agree on that, It was time consuming if you did stuff the wrong way rather then the efficient way.


But to compare that to whats going on today, that some people do, is just silly.

At this point, I feel forced to do M+ content not only go pray for good RNG and get the best DPS increase or utility legendaries for my class/role. I also feel like i have to be really lucky getting titanforged proccs on specific items - and id say 90% of the best raiding items comes outside of raids.

Dont get me wrong here, I really enjoy to do high M+ with friends. I do not like to feel forced to boost the shit out of bad players to get AP in a fast way.


I am sent out every day to do extreamly repetative daylies (at times, you get the same daylie two times a day) to get AP. This AP that I feel forced to grind to get thoose 35 traits, and then do even more grinding to get more traits thats coming down the road.


I have to do this grind a lot of hours every day - thats really boring - to do what I enjoy. This has never, ever, been the case before. In any expansion.


What I am against the most aint the time i need to spend on it - its that I am forced to do something that not has to do with raiding at all, to be able to raid in an efficient way.


Before I could choose what I did with my time, even if i spent the same amount of time just socializing on TS, jumped the Orgrimmar roofs or even fucking stood afk in the Garrison in WoD. I could so stuff I enjoyed, or even play another game. But now - Its logon and do AP grind everyday, otherwise you will soon fall behind so much its not even fun - even if you will be taken into raids, how fun is it beeing left behind?

So i spend my hours everyday, grind WQ;s, Grind 6-9 dungeons boosting bad people. I am ahead of most of the people. But I have never ever been this close to quit the game for good.


I just hope they put an end to 54 traits so we that sooner or later can skip this shitty AP clownfiesta thats going on.

Well speaking of traits i need 1 more 3 times to finish my stupid weapon then I get a armor 10% increase for my special trait 10% thats 494 more armor is it really that good to have 494 more armor... I dont think it is.
Thou I am prob not as lucky as you are I have fallen behind why because I did not get a legendary and could not help my guild as two other new tanks got a legendary and I fell a month and a half behind when I finally got one. Do I blame them no as a guild I felt it was the right choice. Unfortunately I do not get warforged titanforge or special gear and although they are on heroic xav I cannot help them even thou I am only 6 points off item lvl from the lowest dpser in the group. the tanks are roughly now 16 item lvls higher then me as they constantly seem to get titanforged gear. When the next tier comes out I will still be benched as the tanks will most likely still be way ahead of me. So I feel your pain. Even thou I have always been a main tank again I have no issue with them choosing a higher item level geared tank over me. I still pug each week hoping for The RNG to give me some sort of upgrade unfortunately its been a month with nothing and I am also losing faith. THis system is bad one of the worst its ever been.

[PewPewArrowz]

Before I could choose what I did with my time, even if i spent the same amount of time just socializing on TS, jumped the Orgrimmar roofs or even fucking stood afk in the Garrison in WoD. I could so stuff I enjoyed, or even play another game. But now - Its logon and do AP grind everyday, otherwise you will soon fall behind so much its not even fun - even if you will be taken into raids, how fun is it beeing left behind?

Cause farming Shadow/Nature/Frost/Fire resistance gear was extra fun and totally not repetitive/expensive and time consuming. You are a fucking joke.
People keep misunderstanding 1 basic thing about Legion, the AP is there to be farmed for people that want to be competitive, more so than others, you DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT. Same goes with gear, sure there might be a better version of your secondary stat somewhere but there is a equally/and or better one in raids, I repeat you DON'T HAVE TO get it, unless you're in a top 50 guild, maybe not in a top 50 but top 10/20 guild there are reasonable options to get what you want when you want it, the 1-2k dps increase from that M+ item will not matter unless you're in a World first guild.

With that said, putting a limit on what you can and cannot obtain is just horrible, if I personally want to upgrade my character by doing more stuff I should be (and currently I am) able to do it, don't like it? Don't do it.

[mingarrubia]

I dislike people who play an MMO and don't want to do anything but raid.
An MMO to me is a world where I spend all of my free time. Call me a loser, but it's what I like.

People who pile onto the game when a patch comes out, only log in for raiding, then quit when they clear the content are content vampires, and I would be happier if they all quit the game.

So much this.

I've come to the conclusion that we'd all be better off if Blizzard developed a separate Warcraft game for players who only care about raiding. A "non-world of non-massive non-rpg multiplayer raiding arena" or the like, consisting of a circular room with rotating bosses and shining rewards at the end. Then all these nonsensical complaints about having to actually play the game in order to set foot on a raid would finally end.

[Glorious Leader]

we all saw how terrible that was in WotLK. Never again.

It was fucking great. But thats okay. You people asked for it tk be gutted and now youre stuck with an even worse AP grind. ENJOY IT.

[araine]

It's painfully apparent how many people who never stepped foot into a raid or at least never have been a part of an organized raiding guild post their opinions on how organized raiding works in this thread.

"You aren't forced"
"The game was always grindy, in Vanilla it was super grindy"
"Just tell your RL to not have ridiculous standards"

It doesn't work like that.

When people say forced or required, sure, they don't really mean gun-to-head forced.
However, say you're in a raid team with 25 members. The guild is progression oriented. You're a good player, who mainly plays to raid. You log in outside of raid now and then, do your emissary quests daily, and do a few mythic+ runs here and there.

The you're guild doesn't require you to do anything outside of raids, but lets say 18-20 of those raiders prefer to put a lot of effort in doing all raid difficulties weekly, and have run 200+ mythic+ dungeons since launch, all outside of raid and got their 5% buff from their 35th trait. Meanwhile as someone who has maybe done 30 mythic+ dungeons, did normal/heroics once or twice outside of progression, and doesn't run LFR is stuck back at 30 and probably won't be getting 35 at their current pace for another 4-5 weeks. All of a sudden you're on the outside looking in, and feel inclined (a nicer way of saying required/forced) to pick up the pace and grind out a bunch of AP asap or lose your spot for 4-5 weeks, if not for good.

5% absolutely matters in a progression setting. While I am fine in that I have my 35th trait, our guild has lost 4-5 long time members who were used to mainly playing to raid (they quit, didn't go to other guilds), although they'd play more during new content. As a 2 day guild we were really attractive to people who had time demanding jobs, hobbies, families, etc other stuff outside of WoW. Now, however, they ARE forced to either put in at least another 7-14 hours a week into the game outside of raiding to stay on top of things OR lose their spot. There is significant pressure to do so. And for the vast majority of these long time members, "just find another guild that suits your needs" isn't an option. Because they enjoyed raiding with their current team. And literally ANY team that is mythic progression focused will indirectly or directly require you to do some sort of effort outside of raids.

So they quit.

The grind isn't limited to AP either. There is an implied legendary grind. An implied M+ grind. A raider who gets all of his gear from raiding WILL fall 10-20 ilvls behind someone who runs a significant amount of mythic+ as well as raids.

And yeah, the game has always had grinds. But the grinds always had an end in sight. (the AP grind's end is out of sight for 95% of WoW's players. And they said they were adding even more traits, further extending that ending) And the grinds didn't require you to play 8+ hours a day to get far ahead of the curve. Comparing the AP grind to attunements or slow raid gearing is just silly.

Oh.. and I've seen so many people say that these kind of threads are what got us WoD, and the alternative is WoD, and there is nothing in between. Except there is... The 3 expansions + vanilla before WoD were in between WoD and Legion.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation. I have ample time to play WoW outside of raid and my RL obligations. But many don't, and for the first time in a long time have to make a choice.

Just because some players and guilds think they need all things in the game done at once or they cant get this or that done. here is a hint for you all the real top pros cleared what you are stuck on and they cleared it 2 months ago in the first reset. the issue isnt the game it is the players and the guilds looking for excuses for why shit isnt dying in your raids sure if you think 0.5% more dps will fix it you obviously have missed the elephant in the room that folks got this shit down 2 months ago with worse gear.

[Jewsco]

No it wasn't. I raided 8-10 hours a day back in vanilla. I had plenty of time to do my pvp outdoor, play bgs, or do silly things. I would still farm pots, elements, etc no problem, but it wasn't something i would do everyday, and it didn't take that long. The only thing i would have to farm were soulshards, and that didn't take more than 10 minutes (except if a pvp opportunity arise, which would be fun anyways )

Not like i disagree with having things to do in game being good, or if it is really required (hell no lol, except you are at guarm on a first world race or some shit like that), but whenever i read stuff like this it really ticks my "vanilla myths" detector. You have plenty more to grind here than you did in vanilla, with the pvp ranks being the only exception and that was quite short-lived.

Did you pay attention at all what you wrote? 8-10 hours a day and still did other things isn't grinding? Who has that amount of time?
Maybe you were able then because you did have that amount of time then?
Some of us work, have a family , have a life or heck just like to step outside every now and then.

[Deleted]

It's painfully apparent how many people who never stepped foot into a raid or at least never have been a part of an organized raiding guild post their opinions on how organized raiding works in this thread.

"You aren't forced"
"The game was always grindy, in Vanilla it was super grindy"
"Just tell your RL to not have ridiculous standards"

It doesn't work like that.

When people say forced or required, sure, they don't really mean gun-to-head forced.
However, say you're in a raid team with 25 members. The guild is progression oriented. You're a good player, who mainly plays to raid. You log in outside of raid now and then, do your emissary quests daily, and do a few mythic+ runs here and there.

The you're guild doesn't require you to do anything outside of raids, but lets say 18-20 of those raiders prefer to put a lot of effort in doing all raid difficulties weekly, and have run 200+ mythic+ dungeons since launch, all outside of raid and got their 5% buff from their 35th trait. Meanwhile as someone who has maybe done 30 mythic+ dungeons, did normal/heroics once or twice outside of progression, and doesn't run LFR is stuck back at 30 and probably won't be getting 35 at their current pace for another 4-5 weeks. All of a sudden you're on the outside looking in, and feel inclined (a nicer way of saying required/forced) to pick up the pace and grind out a bunch of AP asap or lose your spot for 4-5 weeks, if not for good.

5% absolutely matters in a progression setting. While I am fine in that I have my 35th trait, our guild has lost 4-5 long time members who were used to mainly playing to raid (they quit, didn't go to other guilds), although they'd play more during new content. As a 2 day guild we were really attractive to people who had time demanding jobs, hobbies, families, etc other stuff outside of WoW. Now, however, they ARE forced to either put in at least another 7-14 hours a week into the game outside of raiding to stay on top of things OR lose their spot. There is significant pressure to do so. And for the vast majority of these long time members, "just find another guild that suits your needs" isn't an option. Because they enjoyed raiding with their current team. And literally ANY team that is mythic progression focused will indirectly or directly require you to do some sort of effort outside of raids.

So they quit.

The grind isn't limited to AP either. There is an implied legendary grind. An implied M+ grind. A raider who gets all of his gear from raiding WILL fall 10-20 ilvls behind someone who runs a significant amount of mythic+ as well as raids.

And yeah, the game has always had grinds. But the grinds always had an end in sight. (the AP grind's end is out of sight for 95% of WoW's players. And they said they were adding even more traits, further extending that ending) And the grinds didn't require you to play 8+ hours a day to get far ahead of the curve. Comparing the AP grind to attunements or slow raid gearing is just silly.

Oh.. and I've seen so many people say that these kind of threads are what got us WoD, and the alternative is WoD, and there is nothing in between. Except there is... The 3 expansions + vanilla before WoD were in between WoD and Legion.

This isn't a complaint, just an observation. I have ample time to play WoW outside of raid and my RL obligations. But many don't, and for the first time in a long time have to make a choice.

Well thought out post. I agree.

And this describes perfectly on what is going on with this game and how I personally believe that in time, we will lose more folks than WoD did.

Because if you look past that RNG and the Grind wall, there is no real content actually, other than raids.

Luckily the garrisson isn't making the life a solitude, so we have that going for us. BUT it's basically exactly the same game(a good game) but worse. Because now we have Diablo in it. Except in Diablo, you aren't locked out for a week of meaningful loot, aka. raids.

I have 29/35/35 on my traits. A ridiculous over 44 days played on 110 on my main, my only character. It's a paladin. Some of you may even know me. There is no Bull in those facts.

And I think this expac can get a big fat middle with the RNG, the legendary system and the entire grind system just to stick up with the curve. Ridiculous.

Lucky for me that I'm at a point in life where I can just bury that time into the game. I wouldn't, if I had a job.

Over 500 M+s completed. I am with 5 legendaries, none of them are exactly useful, nevertheless BiS. And I guess I'll just have to keep going...

To keep up with the curve, because with the time I've buried, I'm not on or ahead of it, I'm behind it, because I don't have the right oranges...

EDIT: And before any of the true shitposters start shitposting, this is with 2/3M progression done.

[Jewsco]

Theve been bitching endlessly. We dont want to have to run 10 and 25 mans just because 10 man had a handful good pieces. Move to one raid size. Fuck this game up in cata. We dont want to have to cap valor every week. Bye bye valor.

Its only hard to understand why this nonsense was ever catered to.

Exactly listening to these whiners has blown up in blizz's face repeatedly. Heck the one raid lock in cata destroyed pugging for years.

[Notdev]

Just because some players and guilds think they need all things in the game done at once or they cant get this or that done. here is a hint for you all the real top pros cleared what you are stuck on and they cleared it 2 months ago in the first reset. the issue isnt the game it is the players and the guilds looking for excuses for why shit isnt dying in your raids sure if you think 0.5% more dps will fix it you obviously have missed the elephant in the room that folks got this shit down 2 months ago with worse gear.

No, actually.

First of all, the content we're "stuck" on is mythic Odyn. Which is two weeks old at this point. And the first guilds to reach them DID have a significant amount of people with their 5% buff. The top guilds in the world also basically endlessly farmed M+ at whatever opportunity they got and had a great deal of gear more than they would if M+ wasn't a thing.

Compared to the first guilds that killed Odyn, we're close, but not ahead ilvl wise, but have significantly less people at 35 traits for the 5% buff.

Your post has pretty much gave it away that you haven't been paying attention this expansion at all. In fact this argues my point further.

[Deleted]

Did you pay attention at all what you wrote? 8-10 hours a day and still did other things isn't grinding? Who has that amount of time?
Maybe you were able then because you did have that amount of time then?
Some of us work, have a family , have a life or heck just like to step outside every now and then.

Because we are speaking outside of raids content because the OP is complaining about having to do stuff outside of raids ? Are you really going to go full on something tangential to the discussion ? 8-10 raiding was progression raiding, not grinding. Full stop. I am not even speaking about who has a life, who has not, etc. You were talking about top guilds, i gave you the insight on what you were wrong or had a missconception, which was on how much was required of you to grind outside of raids to be able to raid at top level. Either take it, or refute it, but don't come to me now with the "i have a life" attitude because you were wrong and can't accept it.

[araine]

Last time Blizzard removed the "need" to do stuff outside of raiding in order to gain character power, we lost 6 million subs.
See, a very large part of the playerbase don't raid as the main part of their gameplay, and removing the rewards outside of raids will only be a repeat of WoD.

This plague of people saying they are "forced" to do things to stay at the front in an MMO nearly killed the game as the result of that shit during MoP gave us WoD.

Blizzard learned the lesson from WoD and they will never go back to that style ever again unless they want to kill the game off for good.

[Blayze]

WoD's problem wasn't that there was nothing you needed to do outside of raiding.
WoD's problem was that there was nothing TO do outside of raiding.

[Morssoe]

There is nothing wrong wanting to be casual if you can't handle the race.

[willemh]

I'm not saying that what you are saying is in any way incorrect... but I think doing away with that kind of crap is a BIG reason WOW got to the height it did in Wrath. When you compare the grindiness of Legion to Wrath exclusively, there is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference in the amount of grind (especially as it relates to end game raiding). Considering that Wrath was the height of popularity subs number wise (and just in general IMO), I think it's fair to question whether going back to the grind levels of TBC and Vanilla (you could even question whether we're beyond that) is a good move. Especially in light of the popularity of modern online games which don't require anywhere near that level of time commitment just to be competitive (I'm talking out of raid grinding time here).

You can use the 'grow' and 'subscriber' argument in so many ways. Wrath being the peak in subscribers means something stopped the game from growing further during Wrath? Maybe it was Wrath itself?

The game certainly didnt have problems growing during vanilla and TBC...

[Narbootz]

I personally love the AP and somewhat the legiondary systems. Basically these give me incentive to do any amount of content and make everything worthwhile to some degree.

If a friend in WoD needed my help to run any dungeon I would have told them to shove off. In Legion even normal dungeons have that infinitely small chance of giving a legendary so I feel like I'm actually getting some worth out of it.

"Needing" 35 traits and 2 bis legendary items is a very niche crowd and I think these systems are actually the way to go moving forward.

[Notdev]

Since people probably glance over points in my posts because its a wall of text, why are people saying the only alternative is WoD?

There were 4 other expansions (including WoD). All of which were in between WoD and Legion in terms of grindiness.

[Arkura]

so youre saying that in order to access the only challenging part of this game you have to go through mind-numbingly easy parts of the game every day for hours? relatively speaking ofcourse, i understand that for someone normal is challenging and thats completely ok, but for someone capable of doing mythic, the rest of the game is a joke.

As not all features are enabled at the same time when it comes to raid content, mythic plus etc then yes you have to. But wouldnt you do it alot faster then someone who thinks normal is challenging content? Making it take a shorter time in the end for yourself anyways.
So you're gonna keep on complaining until someone at blizzard acctually pops up right next to you ingame when you reach max level to give you all the gear you need right away so you can skip all the "easy" content since your such a pro at mythic raids?
Gimme a break, quit the game then if its so much to do a little bit of "easy" content to keep you content.

[Hctaz]

dude chill out, the strive of personal excellence does not have to be reflective of the group he rolls with.

This isn't a dick measuring contest so please put yours away.

Exactly. It's a matter of personal goal and not a reflective of group effort. I suppose I could be like the few people we had in the guild who left for guilds higher progressed but why would I? The race is over and done. The guilds higher progressed on my server weren't anywhere near to world first so why does it matter? The point now is to see how well I can do.