Should Flag Burning Be Illegal?

[Untoldblasphemy]

How much you despise it is irrelevant. Personal liberty.

Thing is, it takes a special kind of moron to display his personal 'liberty' in a way that openly steps on the people providing him said liberty. Again, we can all be civil and most laws enforce civility rather than suppress murderous rampages. If you want to be free and live in a civil society but you also want to retain your rights to arbitrarily act like a neanderthal just because nobody had the foresight to expressly forbid your personal brand of savagery maaaaaaaybe you should think about that cognitive dissonance again?

[Machismo]

Did you choose to forget the democracy part or is it a really hard concept for you to grasp?

Just because a majority believes something, doesn't mean it's not oppression. There was a time when a majority supported slavery, so does that mean people should have just been OK with it? Democracy is actually the easiest path to oppression, as it simply takes a 50% +1 share of the people to take away the freedoms of others.

[namecraft]

american flags are burned in the middle east
invasion incoming

[Deleted]

Thing is, it takes a special kind of moron to display his personal 'liberty' in a way that openly steps on the people providing him said liberty. Again, we can all be civil and most laws enforce civility rather than suppress murderous rampages. If you want to be free and live in a civil society but you also want to retain your rights to arbitrarily act like a neanderthal just because nobody had the foresight to expressly forbid your personal brand of savagery maaaaaaaybe you should think about that cognitive dissonance again?

You want to make being uncivil against the law? How do you intend to do that?

It isn't about what *I* or *you* want to do, it's about what others should have the right to do.

[Machismo]

Thing is, it takes a special kind of moron to display his personal 'liberty' in a way that openly steps on the people providing him said liberty. Again, we can all be civil and most laws enforce civility rather than suppress murderous rampages. If you want to be free and live in a civil society but you also want to retain your rights to arbitrarily act like a neanderthal just because nobody had the foresight to expressly forbid your personal brand of savagery maaaaaaaybe you should think about that cognitive dissonance again?

Who is actually getting stepped on?

But it would depend on that person's actual life experiences. Contrary to what many would have us believe, the United States Flag is not the universal sign of freedom. Some people oppose the authoritarian government it has. Some people oppose it's interventionist strategy of foreign policy. Some people didn't like that they slaughtered Native Americans, enslaved people, imprisoned Japanese Americans, and bombed the shit out of more than a dozen countries.

[Grapemask]

Flag burning is virtually the definition of why we have freedom of speech and expression to begin with. The founders made such a fuss about needing a Bill of Rights with these things in it so that you could freely protest and speak out about your government . Burning an inanimate object that you own that represents that government is the very idea of that form of protest.

You can't argue for the second amendment if you believe otherwise, either. After all, the principle behind the second - as absurd as it may be today - is that you may freely own guns in order to protect against government. So you want to argue that you're constitutionally allowed to essentially threaten your elected officials with a bullet if they get too uppity, but peacefully burning a piece of cloth crosses the line? Okay, buddy.

[Untoldblasphemy]

But burning or desecrating a flag doesn't lead to harm. The reasoning behind the "fire" in a movie theater mentality, was that people would get hurt. Burning a flag does not hurt anyone, except maybe their feelers. If that's the case, then we should be consistent, and ban everything that may hurt someone's feelings.

You're acting like such laws don't already exist and for the most inane of things like calling someone a word or in Germany's case wearing or owning Nazi paraphanelia, or even drawing a swastika, which mind you is an ancient Sanskrit symbol for good. Again, where do we draw the line? In this case it's particularly pernicious because we're talking about biting the hand that feeds AND stirring up hate at the same time. Nobody is going to get their panties in a twist if you just go out and say 'I disagree with what this particular country stands for!'

You want to make being uncivil against the law? How do you intend to do that?

It isn't about what *I* or *you* want to do, it's about what others should have the right to do.

Sure, buddy, because against the law automatically means 25-to-life. You've got jokes.

[tikcol]

Just because a majority believes something, doesn't mean it's not oppression. There was a time when a majority supported slavery, so does that mean people should have just been OK with it? Democracy is actually the easiest path to oppression, as it simply takes a 50% +1 share of the people to take away the freedoms of others.

You're liberalism is over the top. That's a very anti-social stance

[Hunterforlife]

Were you in the Military? No
Are you from America? No

Then you wont realize the value of what that means to others.

I served 29 years.

I'm born and raised in the US.

I served to ensure the rights and freedoms of our citizens. The Supreme court has ruled twice that the First Amendment includes the right to burn a flag. So, we will continue to allow flag burning as guaranteed by the US Constitution until the First Amendment is modified.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Ironically, what makes the US so special is that you have the right to burn the flag through free speech. It's paradoxal - you're burning the US flag because you dislike what the US stands for, like the ability to freely burn a flag - but still fundamental. Remove the right to burn the flag and you're a tad closer to totalitarianism.

For instance, China and Cuba both prohibit the flag desecration.

[Shadowferal]

A choice between the US Constitution (and the rights of the individual) or a flag isn't a choice.

[Tyrianth]

The flag worship in the US is getting to be scary.

Getting? You guys literally have laws that require schools to dedicate time to "patriotic activity".

[Deleted]

Sure, buddy, because against the law automatically means 25-to-life. You've got jokes.

Eh?

You spoke of the law specifically supporting people being civil over uncivil. What does that look like, or should that look like in practice?

[Machismo]

You're acting like such laws don't already exist and for the most inane of things like calling someone a word or in Germany's case wearing or owning Nazi paraphanelia, or even drawing a swastika, which mind you is an ancient Sanskrit symbol for good. Again, where do we draw the line? In this case it's particularly pernicious because we're talking about biting the hand that feeds AND stirring up hate at the same time. Nobody is going to get their panties in a twist if you just go out and say 'I disagree with what this particular country stands for!'



Sure, buddy, because against the law automatically means 25-to-life. You've got jokes.

The existence of a law is not a justification for it, ever. The problem is where one does draw that line, and how consistent they are with maintaining that line. By stating that flag burning should be illegal, because people are offended by it, then you open the door to ban a ton of forms of expression. Cartoons are offensive.. ban them. Curse words are offensive... ban them. Where does it stop? Setting that line IS the slippery slope.

[bladeXcrasher]

Getting? You guys literally have laws that require schools to dedicate time to "patriotic activity".

Interesting, I literally didn't have any of that.

[Machismo]

You're liberalism is over the top. That's a very anti-social stance

You mean my support of freedom is over the top? What other freedoms do you want to take away from others in order to not be offended our outraged?

[Mizix]

Were you in the Military? No
Are you from America? No

Then you wont realize the value of what that means to others.

Other countries have flags and patriotism too, it's not exclusive to America. It's just a flag, get over yourself.

[Untoldblasphemy]

Eh?

You spoke of the law specifically supporting people being civil over uncivil. What does that look like, or should that look like in practice?

Dude, you can't piss or defecate in public and getting caught doing so just means you've got to pay a fine. Do I really need to go through all the laws enforcing civility rather than punishing criminal intent on mmo-c or can you take a step back and think about it yourself? Pooper scoopers, keeping the noise down after a certain hour, not being unhygenic on public transport, need I go on? Certain states prohibit anal sex, how do they enforce that particular law?

The existence of a law is not a justification for it, ever. The problem is where one does draw that line, and how consistent they are with maintaining that line. By stating that flag burning should be illegal, because people are offended by it, then you open the door to ban a ton of forms of expression. Cartoons are offensive.. ban them. Curse words are offensive... ban them. Where does it stop? Setting that line IS the slippery slope.

Words and pictures are different than actions. Saying 'not my president' doesn't mean you're the next Guy Fawkes, participating in WoW PVP is not violence. This is line is pretty clear in my opinion. Saying 'I wish I could assassinate Trump but that is ridiculous and I don't condone violence but I am making a point about the existance of a certain individual' is day and night from going on twitter and saying 'I am going to shoot Trump, brb buying a gun'. For one, the secret service isn't going to come kicking your door down if you say/type the former.

[Shadowferal]

If the ideals represented by a symbol have lost all meaning then the symbol itself is no longer....symbolic.
The flag becomes no more than a piece of cloth.

[Deleted]

Dude, you can't piss or defecate in public and getting caught doing so just means you've got to pay a fine. Do I really need to go through all the laws enforcing civility rather than punishing criminal intent on mmo-c or can you take a step back and think about it yourself? Pooper scoopers, keeping the noise down after a certain hour, not being unhygenic on public transport, need I go on?

I mean in terms of speech: How do you make sure that people are civil in their objections to the US government, pray tell? That was the context in which you bought it up.

Certain states prohibit anal sex, how do they enforce that particular law?

They don't, I'd assume.