PTR Build 7.1.5 build 23109

[RuneDK]

Well, the main reason for that is simple. It's our second highest damaging ability and the strongest talent in the tier.
It was clear that they are going to nerf Hailstorm.

So because it does a lot of our damage it warrants a nerf? That makes no sense. Instead of nerfing HS they should have buffed the other options. HS is similar to frozen pulse for frost dks(minus aoe and the fact we have to activate it). They aren't nerfing frozen pulse, they're buffing the other two options in that row. That's how they should handle it, but it is what it is.

[Deleted]

I also dont like it, that my preferred build gets nerfed, just to make the choices more ballanced between eachothers. Buff the others, don´t take from what I like, I haven´t done anything wrong nor did any other shaman...

[Deleted]

So because it does a lot of our damage it warrants a nerf? That makes no sense. Instead of nerfing HS they should have buffed the other options. HS is similar to frozen pulse for frost dks(minus aoe and the fact we have to activate it). They aren't nerfing frozen pulse, they're buffing the other two options in that row. That's how they should handle it, but it is what it is.

We don't need a buff, of course they nerf it. With that logic there would be powercreep every patch.
"Hey, this 1 talent is OP, let's make the other ones OP too"
Of course that is an extreme but basicly you're saying that every time they make changes they should just give the class an overall damage boost. Very naive and stupid from balance pov.

[Deleted]

So because it does a lot of our damage it warrants a nerf? That makes no sense. Instead of nerfing HS they should have buffed the other options. HS is similar to frozen pulse for frost dks(minus aoe and the fact we have to activate it). They aren't nerfing frozen pulse, they're buffing the other two options in that row. That's how they should handle it, but it is what it is.

You can't really compare two talents like that. Frozen Pulse applies to just auto attacks, while Hailstorm applies to ALL melee attacks. I daresay we have "a few" more applications of Hailstorm than Frost DK's have of Frozen Pulse in any given fight.

I just found a random Frost DK with Frozen Pulze. On a mythic Guarm kill (4 minutes), he had 134* applications of Frozen Pulse. On our Guarm kill last night (4:16 minutes, on normal though), I had 540 applications of Hailstorm. Frozen Pulse was 7.78% of his total damage, while Hailstorm was 15.53% of my total damage.

* I don't know Frost DKs very much, but I notice he has 238 melee swings, though only 134 applications of Frozen Pulse. I'd assume that they keep their runes on cooldown, so Frozen Pulse should be up most of the time - which means I don't quite know why there is such a big gap between his Frozen Pulse applications and his melee swings. Even if we counted all of his melee swings, I still have almost twice as many applications of Hailstorm.

I also dont like it, that my preferred build gets nerfed, just to make the choices more ballanced between eachothers. Buff the others, don´t take from what I like, I haven´t done anything wrong nor did any other shaman...

It's pretty much a coin toss - do they nerf one talent or buff two others? In this case, they went for the nerf, which makes sense because Hailstorm is such a big part of our damage, and how it scales for us. But in the case of our level 100 talents, for example, they buffed the two underperforming talents instead of nerfing Landslide.

You can still play your preferred build - so far the only changes are the cooldown on Boulderfist and a small nerf to Hailstorm, but your rotation remains the same if you want to stick with what you know.

But let's remember that these might not be the last changes. It's still just PTR, and we might see more changes to shamans overall.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Buffing the other choices won't make the spec overpowered, wtf is this way of thinking? But nerfing the best option is A OVERALL NERF, because no matter what you chose, you will do less damage than before. No, hailstorm did not deserve a nerf. This "small" nerf is around 30% to hailstorm, how can you say it's small?

Keep using hailstorm or use one of the other 2 talents, no matter what you chose, it's less damage than before, in other words, a nerf to a spec far from overpowered that didn't need a nerf at all.

[melodramocracy]

Elemental can now play as it has been, and see a dps loss due to the haste nerf, or switch to an Icefury / EB build, for even more stop-n-cast goodness.

Strike 2, PTR.

[Darleth]

So because it does a lot of our damage it warrants a nerf? That makes no sense. Instead of nerfing HS they should have buffed the other options. HS is similar to frozen pulse for frost dks(minus aoe and the fact we have to activate it). They aren't nerfing frozen pulse, they're buffing the other two options in that row. That's how they should handle it, but it is what it is.

Not saying I'm not agreeing with you, that it sounds stupid. But I guess bringing HS to a lower powerlevel is easier to do, considering it scales heavily with both haste and mastery. That might be one of the reasons why its better to nerf it by some percent instead of pushing the other things WAY higher.

Also, what some people said about it in the thread after your answer is valid in most cases. We apply our HS on every auto and melee attack that we have, while Frozen Pulse only activates on AAs, resulting in overall higher damage from the talent. It also procs on every target hit with CL for example, giving it even a thing for AoE fights.

Edit:

Buffing the other choices won't make the spec overpowered, wtf is this way of thinking? But nerfing the best option is A OVERALL NERF, because no matter what you chose, you will do less damage than before. No, hailstorm did not deserve a nerf. This "small" nerf is around 30% to hailstorm, how can you say it's small?

Keep using hailstorm or use one of the other 2 talents, no matter what you chose, it's less damage than before, in other words, a nerf to a spec far from overpowered that didn't need a nerf at all.

Can you do something else other than dooming and glooming? This is all that's been coming out of you in the last few days.
It'll still have its uses and benefits. It'll still scale quite well into the addon via Haste and Mastery. Its a ~5k damage loss on the talent. It's still hitting for about 11,2k for me, double that because it procs 2 times everytime we auto attack, instead of 33k-ish it deals 22k. Also Lightning Shield got buffed. Its sitting on 27k~ for me. The real question here is: will LS become BETTER than HS or not in terms of raw damage gain.

Was HS overpowered? No. Did it need some tuning? Yes. Absolutely.

[skitzy129]

Haven't really been paying close attention to the patch, what's the tl;dr for Enhance?

What I've gathered is that nothing notable has been buffed and Hailstorm does less damage so overall we're just marginally weaker.

[Darleth]

Haven't really been paying close attention to the patch, what's the tl;dr for Enhance?

What I've gathered is that nothing notable has been buffed and Hailstorm does less damage so overall we're just marginally weaker.

Overall a buff to our AoE talents, some slight nerfs to the current standard build and other ST stuff got buffed (Earthen Spike, Ascendance). Rainfall also recieved a slight buff.

Still gotta wait for more though.

[Exosirus]

Just wondering how everyone thinks elemental got nerfed so hard just from the notes mentioned today???

Am i the ONLY person who noticed this "Mastery: Elemental Overload Your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst casts have a 18% chance to trigger a second cast on the same target for 75% of normal damage and 75% of normal Maelstrom generation. Shaman - Elemental Spec."
I mean unless this is just a tool tip change this seems like a significant boost to maelstrom generation? I'm no know it all about the spec but on live it doesn't even say that Elemental Overload even generates maelstrom at all? Please correct me if i'm wrong otherwise how is this not sweet?

[MakeMeLaugh]

Not saying I'm not agreeing with you, that it sounds stupid. But I guess bringing HS to a lower powerlevel is easier to do, considering it scales heavily with both haste and mastery. That might be one of the reasons why its better to nerf it by some percent instead of pushing the other things WAY higher.

Also, what some people said about it in the thread after your answer is valid in most cases. We apply our HS on every auto and melee attack that we have, while Frozen Pulse only activates on AAs, resulting in overall higher damage from the talent. It also procs on every target hit with CL for example, giving it even a thing for AoE fights.

Edit:


Can you do something else other than dooming and glooming? This is all that's been coming out of you in the last few days.
It'll still have its uses and benefits. It'll still scale quite well into the addon via Haste and Mastery. Its a ~5k damage loss on the talent. It's still hitting for about 11,2k for me, double that because it procs 2 times everytime we auto attack, instead of 33k-ish it deals 22k. Also Lightning Shield got buffed. Its sitting on 27k~ for me. The real question here is: will LS become BETTER than HS or not in terms of raw damage gain.

Was HS overpowered? No. Did it need some tuning? Yes. Absolutely.

Two of our legendaries require hailstorm, one of them being bis. The tuning was necessary for the other options, not the other way around. They simply nerfed a build for the sake of nerfing, because it wasn't necessary. "Booo hoo I read his 2 last posts and he's all doom and glooming", gimme a break.

The most stupid talent ever still there and now even nerfed instead of replacing it with something more interesting, can't really say they are trying. Stop trying to tune lightning shield, nobody uses or cares about it, even blizz said they would remove/replace talents nobody ever picked, guess it was small talk.

[mrinvisable2]

Just wondering how everyone thinks elemental got nerfed so hard just from the notes mentioned today???

Am i the ONLY person who noticed this "Mastery: Elemental Overload Your Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst casts have a 18% chance to trigger a second cast on the same target for 75% of normal damage and 75% of normal Maelstrom generation. Shaman - Elemental Spec."
I mean unless this is just a tool tip change this seems like a significant boost to maelstrom generation? I'm no know it all about the spec but on live it doesn't even say that Elemental Overload even generates maelstrom at all? Please correct me if i'm wrong otherwise how is this not sweet?

just tooltip change, new tooltip includes icefury and elemental blast tooltips added when speced in to it

[Shammyrock]

Overloads def generate maelstrom on live.

[RuneDK]

Not saying I'm not agreeing with you, that it sounds stupid. But I guess bringing HS to a lower powerlevel is easier to do, considering it scales heavily with both haste and mastery. That might be one of the reasons why its better to nerf it by some percent instead of pushing the other things WAY higher.

Also, what some people said about it in the thread after your answer is valid in most cases. We apply our HS on every auto and melee attack that we have, while Frozen Pulse only activates on AAs, resulting in overall higher damage from the talent. It also procs on every target hit with CL for example, giving it even a thing for AoE fights.

Edit:


Can you do something else other than dooming and glooming? This is all that's been coming out of you in the last few days.
It'll still have its uses and benefits. It'll still scale quite well into the addon via Haste and Mastery. Its a ~5k damage loss on the talent. It's still hitting for about 11,2k for me, double that because it procs 2 times everytime we auto attack, instead of 33k-ish it deals 22k. Also Lightning Shield got buffed. Its sitting on 27k~ for me. The real question here is: will LS become BETTER than HS or not in terms of raw damage gain.

Was HS overpowered? No. Did it need some tuning? Yes. Absolutely.

I mean, I know they want us to have viable options for talents...but they designed two legendaries(that could possibly be must haves in 7.1.5) around being forced to take hailstorm.

- - - Updated - - -

Haven't really been paying close attention to the patch, what's the tl;dr for Enhance?

What I've gathered is that nothing notable has been buffed and Hailstorm does less damage so overall we're just marginally weaker.

Enhance will be fine and other talents will be viable choices going forward.

[Imnick]

The ring definitely requires Hailstorm, what's the other one that you think requires it though?

[Darleth]

Two of our legendaries require hailstorm, one of them being bis. The tuning was necessary for the other options, not the other way around. They simply nerfed a build for the sake of nerfing, because it wasn't necessary. "Booo hoo I read his 2 last posts and he's all doom and glooming", gimme a break.

The most stupid talent ever still there and now even nerfed instead of replacing it with something more interesting, can't really say they are trying. Stop trying to tune lightning shield, nobody uses or cares about it, even blizz said they would remove/replace talents nobody ever picked, guess it was small talk.

2 Posts? You have been dooming and gloomin even in the Future Enhancements Ressources thread, where MULTIPLE PEOPLE told you that you are simply wrong, even Wordup himself. But as he said: you wont see reason, so I'm just going to ignore your posts in the future.

To point 2: So? That means with those legendaries Hailstorm gets more value, without it you can still play HS fine or if you want to, switch to LS. There are A TON OF PEOPLE who don't like managing Frostbrand while playing, and for those people there is only Ancestral Swiftness currently. Also, people WILL care about LS if it is the better option, even if its just a passive and requires little to no managing.

Should they have done the things they've said? Absolutely. I'd rather see Feral Lunge baked into the spec and replaced with something else and Lightning Shield gone or at least something added to it.

I mean, I know they want us to have viable options for talents...but they designed two legendaries(that could possibly be must haves in 7.1.5) around being forced to take hailstorm.

As I've said: HS will probably still be a viable option, and with both or even just one of these legendaries it'll gain more value. There is absolutely no need to say "ERRMAHHGERRD, THEY NURFD IT INTO DA GROUND!". It'll still scale very well.

The ring definitely requires Hailstorm, what's the other one that you think requires it though?

Akainus Meme Justice

[RuneDK]

As I've said: HS will probably still be a viable option, and with both or even just one of these legendaries it'll gain more value. There is absolutely no need to say "ERRMAHHGERRD, THEY NURFD IT INTO DA GROUND!". It'll still scale very well.

Oh, I don't think the sky is falling over it. I just find it funny that a couple legendaries force it and then they nerf it instead of bring the other two up to it. I know it will still be a viable talent, but I'm more of a bring things up rather than down when balancing.

[D3bacl3]

The bracers:

Equip: Lava Lash deals 30% increased damage while your weapons are enhanced by both Flametongue and Frostbrand.

[Imnick]

Ah yeah, the bracers are so bad right now that I forgot they had the buff requirement.

[MakeMeLaugh]

2 Posts? You have been dooming and gloomin even in the Future Enhancements Ressources thread, where MULTIPLE PEOPLE told you that you are simply wrong, even Wordup himself. But as he said: you wont see reason, so I'm just going to ignore your posts in the future.

To point 2: So? That means with those legendaries Hailstorm gets more value, without it you can still play HS fine or if you want to, switch to LS. There are A TON OF PEOPLE who don't like managing Frostbrand while playing, and for those people there is only Ancestral Swiftness currently. Also, people WILL care about LS if it is the better option, even if its just a passive and requires little to no managing.

Should they have done the things they've said? Absolutely. I'd rather see Feral Lunge baked into the spec and replaced with something else and Lightning Shield gone or at least something added to it.



As I've said: HS will probably still be a viable option, and with both or even just one of these legendaries it'll gain more value. There is absolutely no need to say "ERRMAHHGERRD, THEY NURFD IT INTO DA GROUND!". It'll still scale very well.



Akainus Meme Justice

I would totally use another option in that row if we actually had it. But can I? No. Why? Because the other 2 options are bad(and even worse now thanks to AS nerf) AND I have both Akainu and Eye of the Twisting Nether(got yesterday).

I tried AS many times and the spec feels really good because of the lower GCD, but it becomes way too simple, still an option for those that want simple things. Now we could have a third option, maybe a mix of both passive and active, maybe another frost talent, maybe a big CD. Nope...

So yea, I'm gonna complain that in order for them to "balance", their way of thinking is nerf what everyone uses for the other options become "viable", 100% lazy.