[Balance] Legion Discussion

[boz0]

The only reason people bring my to mythic+ is because they know me. People don't usually go "we need a boomkin", all we really bring is innervate that is unique and that doesn't make up for a lot of our flaws.

Haven't seen treants mentioned here. I feel they are the best utility a boomkin can bring in m+ : 10 secs free of damage on the tank every minute is just awesome on packs, even without necrotic.

[MV Kaa]

I instantly get invited to any M+ I apply to. There are far worse specs than boomkins especially when you get to 12+.

Sure you can bring a mage that has better burst aoe and openers, but im sure you regret bringing them on single/cleave trash when they have no cds and pulling 150k dps.

[Purpleisbetter]

While also buffing hunters and mages at the same time

Can't speak about hunters, but Fire and Frost are getting smashed. Fire situation is beyond ridiculous. The nerfs to CM, Molten Armor and Incantation basically killed the scaling of fire.

[Pouponu]

For anybody that would like to know my thoughts on the 7.1.5 PTR changes so far, you can find them here: https://gebuz.wordpress.com/

oh shit, Shooting Stars procs Moon and Stars? I was wondering why with IFE I was doing really good ST with SS compared to BotA!!!

[joltcola1234]

oh shit, Shooting Stars procs Moon and Stars? I was wondering why with IFE I was doing really good ST with SS compared to BotA!!!

Is this currently happening on live or PTR?

[Pouponu]

Is this currently happening on live or PTR?

On live! Just tested on some target dummies.

[Bugg]

I instantly get invited to any M+ I apply to. There are far worse specs than boomkins especially when you get to 12+.

I have the opposite experience, all day, every day.

[Myztikrice]

I get invited, because my ilvl on group finder shows 888

[babele]

would the new shoulders not effect the moonfire tick, just the initial damage of it?

[Frostyfire14]

would the new shoulders not effect the moonfire tick, just the initial damage of it?

I'm pretty sure it's just a flat 20% damage bonus to moonfire's damage. Both dot and initial.

I'm curious if the shoulders will apply the 2nd moonfire with initial damage or just try it like a weakened sunfire spread.

[huth]

Is this currently happening on live or PTR?

Live. Most insane variant i had was during a Nightbane run, where i somehow ended up with 50 stacks within 5s of incarnation. Pretty sure that isn't intended to happen, though.

I'm pretty sure it's just a flat 20% damage bonus to moonfire's damage. Both dot and initial.

I'm curious if the shoulders will apply the 2nd moonfire with initial damage or just try it like a weakened sunfire spread.

Most likely initial damage. It's basically the old PvP talent.

[Tyze]

Critical Strike - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Critical Strike, up from 350.
Haste - Now requires 375 rating per 1% Haste, up from 325.
Mastery - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Mastery, up from 350.
Versatility - Now requires 475 rating per 1% damage and healing increase, up from 400. Now requires 950 rating per 1% damage taken reduction, up from 800.

Does it effect us?

Probably does i'm shit at this

[Lahis]

Critical Strike - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Critical Strike, up from 350.
Haste - Now requires 375 rating per 1% Haste, up from 325.
Mastery - Now requires 400 rating per 1% Mastery, up from 350.
Versatility - Now requires 475 rating per 1% damage and healing increase, up from 400. Now requires 950 rating per 1% damage taken reduction, up from 800.

Does it effect us?

Probably does i'm shit at this

Yeah, that nerfs everybody. Gear just became shittier overall.

We'll need new stat weights now. However I'm not nearly good enough in theorycraftignand simming to do that.

[Tyze]

Yeah, that nerfs everybody. Gear just became shittier overall.

We'll need new stat weights now. However I'm not nearly good enough in theorycraftignand simming to do that.

Oh yeah just figured it out, wonder if the stats change for us.

[Deleted]

Hey, I finally was lucky enough to get a DPS legendary after months of sephuz+prydaz, and it was the helm (yaaay \o/).
I have, however, a question about how simcraft handles the rotation with the helm.
I have 2 possible sets of gear : one with 878 ilvl and roughly 8K3 haste that sims at 420K DPS, which would only allow me to weave 1 LS between my SS, and one with only 873 ilvl but 10K haste that sims at 412K (with the same trinkets), even though it's above the haste threshold for 2x SW between SS, which should be a DPS gain. The damage repartition in simcraft doesn't show an increase in SW, it's actually even lower with the 10K haste set.
My question is, is simcraft handling the rotation well and can I trust it to decide between these sets of gear? If not, how much of a dps increase is the 9750 haste threshold? I have to say I was really excited about the helm, but it's proving to be a bit of a pain in the ass to get the rotation right on live fights outside of BL (people randomly moving on guarm, lots of moving around on Odyn..), and I wonder if the SW cap wouldn't help with that (less chances to have to stopcast a full LS and gain 0 AP, instead only cast 1 SW of the 2 and still gain 10 AP, this kind of thing).

[huth]

Yeah, that nerfs everybody. Gear just became shittier overall.

We'll need new stat weights now. However I'm not nearly good enough in theorycraftignand simming to do that.

It doesn't really affect us in particular because it's a nerf to everybody. It shouldn't affect weights very much, either.

Besides, they also buffed secondary contribution from jewelry, so the overall change isn't that huge. Also, since they didn't say anything about it, it is most likely still a work in progress.

[Cyous]

Force of Nature got a buff. 30-40% ish. Dem bursty splinters.

[huth]

30-40%? They weren't even that weak beforehand. Ouch.

[thedeisel]

Going into 7.1.5 I would've thought the main things to address for moonkin would've been:

1. AoE ramp up.
2. Emerald Dreamcatcher disparity with other legendaries and non-legendaries
3. Do something about mandatory talents (Starlord for all PVE content except for Necrotic week, Displacer Beast, Incarnation, Nature's Balance (for PVE content at least))
4. Slightly less so, but something on my radar anyway, Multi-DoT weakness (a long standing strength for moonkin but a clear weakness in legion)


RE: 1: SotF change doesn't address problems 1 or 3. Our ramp up problem is already addressed by 50AP starfall, and while 40 is fine, the real ramp up problem is in multi-dotting. Just looking at pure AoE damage (Dots, Stellar Empoerment, Starfall), the Stellar Drift does address issue 1 somewhat nicely though.

Assuming you have both dots up, and setting aside the unnoticeable Echoing stars damage (But factoring in all other relevant artifact traits), and ignoring Lunar Strike Splash damage, at 30% mastery from gear, Starfall does 40% of your damage, Stellar Empowerment does 28%, Base DoT ticks do 32%. Stellar Drift will rejigger that a bit by having about 52% of total damage coming from starfall itself.

In fact, with Stellar Drift, your total Starfall Related and Derived AoE damage will be just about equal with only Sunfire on the target (1546% SP) than with 2 dots but no Stellar Drift (1646% SP). With 2 dots and SD, Starfall Related AoE goes up to 2040% SP. Having a higher Percentage of AoE damage come from Starfall also makes it slightly less painful to Double Stack starfalls than before for occasions when more burst is needed. It's obviously not super efficient in terms of Damage/AP but sometimes stuff has to die.

SotF overall though still seems like it’ll always be a bad choice. Or at least, the reason to choose it is because you want a super duper easy talent that is easy not only because it’s passive but because it reduces the need to skillfully conserve and plan your AP usage.

Re:2
The 4 set bonus is disastrous making this a much worse problem. It’s hard to believe this can stand without any relative nerfs to the legendary (either by direct nerfs to the legendary or to buffs to the baseline kit that aren’t tied starsurge, dots for example). I honestly can’t believe the team that is nerfing Unholy and Fire legendaries is also making this change. It can’t be the same set of people.

I do think the FoE change could be an avenue to addressing this though. If FoE were a single target increase over Starsurge, then the gap wouldn’t be so bad for people to take a higher skill cap, higher risk/reward talent than Nature’s balance. It also has small range cleave benefits. When you factor everything in (artifact traits, more wraths cast with FoE because fewer spent on SS), FoE is now a single target increase in terms of Damage/AP spent at lowish mastery levels (about 25% mastery from gear). I think that line should be shifted so that FoE is a single target increase up to about 35% mastery from gear or even 40. That would have FoE be 200% SP per tick instead of the now buffed to 170% per tick. That would help shrink the gap with Emerald Dream Catcher by allowing non-ED moonkin to go for a baseline higher single target setup and get more damage out of big damage increase windows. At least it gives us Non-ED moonkin some choice.

No matter what, though, this latest 4piece has to go.

Re: 3
I don’t see much progress made here. Displacer Beast is still the choice for mechanical reasons. if Wild Charge were baseline maybe I’d pay attention to other options but burst movement is so mechanically superior to anything else that I need some form of it and blink is the best possible version. We’re not going to be going off of starlord for 1 more charge on WoE. We’re not giving up Incarnation for SotF (see above) and I don’t think Stellar Flare changes are enough to move the needle (see below).

Stellar Drift nicely moves the needle for PVE content. It's a clear winner for AoE needs over Nature's Balance as it reduces ramp up and substantially increases top end damage as well. I wish FoE could get a bigger buff here so it could be a single target option as well so we're not stuck with Nature's balance. It would be nice to be able to adapt to my dungeon group. Go FoE if my dungeon group needs boss damage. Go Stellar Drift if we need AoE. As it stands, FoE is a single target DPS loss. Nature's balance is a miniscule single target gain for dungeon bosses that last so little time. SD is the aoe talent. I wish we could have a meaningful single target choice for dungeons in that row. FoE is again a good place to do that.

edit: if FoN is buffed, that also helps the FoE talent build, which would be very nice. Also may help with choice in that first row.

Re:4
I don't see enough progress made here. Picking Stellar Flare only amounts to about a 60% increase in damage to dots at a resource cost plus the opportunity cost damage of a Wrath. Stellar Flare does 250% direct damage. An artifact buffed non-empowered wrath does 243.8% damage. So, the direct damage is a wash. That means the net effect is -18 Astral Power + the dot damage. Again, the dot damage is a 60% increase over Moonfire + Sunfire dot damage together. That’s just not enough to make us a strong multi-dot class. Look at mythic Odyn logs. Even if you flat buffed Moonfire and Sunfire by 60% moonkin would be weak among multi-dot classes. Not sniffing Spriest or Locks. And you can’t just flat buff the total damage by 60% because a lot of dot damage (esepcially on top logs) is coming on Runebearers which can’t all be hit with Stellar Flare. If you allow Stellar Flare to apply Stellar Empowerment the total increase in DoT damage would be aroudn 145% at 30% mastery on gear. That number would put us into range with Locks and Spriests where we have traditionally been.

[Squarebear]

Ugh, hate having to sacrifice Starlord for FoN as is, I really wish they weren't on the same tier. Casting feels so sluggish without it.