I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Glorious Leader]

Legendary system is shit, yes. Its incredibly unlikely we will have it in 8.0, so just grin and bear it for now.

As far as I can tell the only objection to this system is purely the RNG aspect which I agree wholeheartedly. Put it on a vendor. Get currency from the raid, mythic+, world quests whatever.

[kamuimac]

For me the disappointment is now investing the same time and effort as you have for the last few years, but not getting the same return. Dropping from world 800 to world 1400 is not a good feeling

maybe its time to finally realise that whether you are 800 or 1400 it completly doesnt matter as nobody besides you will ever care. ever. nobody will recognize your skills, nobody will ever think that you accomplised anything besides you yourself - its computer game it always was it always will be - its doin nicely in releasing dopamine to your brain when you kill stuff but by killing those dragons you will never achieve anything irl unless you are part of top of top of world teams or succesfull streamer.

maybe its time to enjoy content for content . maybe its time to admit that you are very good player but casual on and stop preteinding to be hardocore - it will be very healthy for you in longer run.'

rpgs were always build around grinds - if you dont like gridning time to look for some kind of arcade hack and slash not rpg. simple as that.

[saeros]

Yes. Currently Mythic+ gear according to you is better than mythic gear.

Making it the same gear implies you will either bring down the mythic+ gear to mythic raid levels (NERF IT FROM ITS CURRENT LEVELS)

or

BUFF MYTHIC RAID GEAR (which will only mean you still have to farm mythic+ for your BIS because it's uncapped and you didnt get lucky in your mythic+ or even just going into the raid you wanna have bis)

In the first case you directly nerf the gear, in the second case you solve nothing. This is not difficult. To understand. Can you explain in which sense you would make them same?

really, another post that show that you haven't understood nothing about how the system works right now.
it is not about the item level, it is abot the items
(and since you have never done a raid maybe you don't know this: stats > item level like 99% of the times)

you have an haste+crit item in m+?
make it availabe in raids. T H E S A M E I T E M

you have the bis trinket in raids?
make it available in m+, T H E S A M E I T E M

i don't care what the cap is, make it 920 buff both, who cares, if they are the same it doesn't matter.

and yes, it will solve the problem, as bis raid gear will be in raid. m+ bis gear will be available in m+.
(i am also here waiting to see how it will work for tiers, in your opinion is ok that a person that only like m+ will have to do raids to get tier item? or trinket)

you want to farm gear in m+? you're welcome, then when the same item drops you won't need it and someone else will take it.

the gear in raids work like this: if you are unlucky one time, the next time nobody will need it and it is yours.

[Inci]

The game is not designed for hardcore players only, You chose to be hardcore, that means you are willing to do anything to stay competitive. If you are not willing to.. then you are not as hardcore as you think you are. step down a lvl and enjoy the game as it is instead of how it could be OR WoD will happen again.

[Glorious Leader]

you have an haste+crit item in m+?
make it availabe in raids. T H E S A M E I T E M

you have the bis trinket in raids?
make it available in m+, T H E S A M E I T E M

i don't care what the cap is, make it 920 buff both, who cares, if they are the same it doesn't matter.

and yes, it will solve the problem, as bis raid gear will be in raid. m+ bis gear will be available in m+.
(i am also here waiting to see how it will work for tiers, in your opinion is ok that a person that only like m+ will have to do raids to get tier item? or trinket)

you want to farm gear in m+? you're welcome, then when the same item drops you won't need it and someone else will take it.

the gear in raids work like this: if you are unlucky one time, the next time nobody will need it and it is yours.

No it won't solve the problem. If your goal is to min max progression YOU STILL STILL NEED TO FARM MYTHIC+ BECAUSE IT ALSO DROPS YOUR BIS. You still be negatively impacting your raid progression if you don't participate in mythic+ in fact for the people who didn't have BiS in mythic+ you basically just "forced" them into mythic+. To optimize their chances of getting BiS they now have to raid and also run mythic+. In the short term you haven't changed a thing. The people who still feel compelled to run mythic+ will still feel compelled to run mythic+.

[saeros]

No it won't solve the problem. If your goal is to min max progression YOU STILL STILL NEED TO FARM MYTHIC+ BECAUSE IT ALSO DROPS YOUR BIS. You still be negatively impacting your raid progression if you don't participate in mythic+ in fact for the people who didn't have BiS in mythic+ you basically just "forced" them into mythic+. To optimize their chances of getting BiS they now have to raid and also run mythic+.

is funny how for you right now the system "doesn't force you, you can choose"

but if you try to improve it suddenly it force you, pretty shitty argument, no?

ofc you could still farm m+, people like it, but it will not be THE ONLY WAY to get bis (remember, again that hard word you can't understand: "alternative")

really, i get that you're mad i'm correct, but you look pathetic right now

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The game is not designed for hardcore players only, You chose to be hardcore, that means you are willing to do anything to stay competitive. If you are not willing to.. then you are not as hardcore as you think you are. step down a lvl and enjoy the game as it is instead of how it could be OR WoD will happen again.

and i'm here saying that the issue here is what this "anything" include.

also we talked about wod like 15 pages ago, there is no reason to think that it must be "like wod or like legion".

[Jastall]

Look, I get that for some people it's a problem.

But the point of Mythic+ is to be its own viable endgame progression path, for the first time in this game's history the best of the best PvE gear is not guaranteed to come from raids, because the hardest of the hard PvE content is not always raids (+15 CoS is arguably harder than anything in the game save Helya, for example). Sure, there are hiccups here and there; the TF system probably shouldn't allow gear that is better than Mythic Raid to drop, given that M+ is endlessly farmable and raids are not.

It's why I favor to see WF/TF loot to be capped at the Mythic Raid gear level, IE if M Nighthold drops 905, all gear in the game caps at 905 period. WF/TF is ok as a way to have gear from easier sources sometimes be better to give a power boost and a reason to run it, but it probably screws with the gear progression in high-end PvE a bit too much.

Apart from that, however, I don't think much needs to be changed.

[Glorious Leader]

is funny how for you right now the system "doesn't force you, you can choose"

but if you try to improve it suddenly it force you, pretty shitty argument, no?

ofc you could still farm m+, people like it, but it will not be THE ONLY WAY to get bis (remember, again that hard word you can't understand: "alternative")

really, i get that you're mad i'm correct, but you look pathetic right now

To be clear I said it would force people who didn't have or had relatively few BiS in mythic+ to chase BiS mythic+ even more harder. They would be more coerced or forced in the sense that you would argue it's forced currently. Of course I don't agree it's forced but we're arguing on your terms. Your "improvement" really just makes the situation worse for the people you are ostensible trying to save from themselves.

The fact is in your solution nothing changes. If you choose not to farm mythic+ it will have a negative impact on your raid. Your solution is awful. Also I don't want to be that guy but is English not your first language?

Mythic+ is an alternative. You just have a particularly skewed view that doesn't correlate with the meaning of words. It is of course an alternative to raiding. You don't have to raid, you don't have to do mythic+ but you can do either and you can get meaningful progression out of both. This is exactly what they said it would be. It could replace raiding entirely or it could be a side thing if you still wanted to raid. It's a success in those terms and should remain exactly the way it is.

[saeros]

To be clear I said it would force people who didn't have BiS in mythic+ to chase BiS mythic+ in the sense that you would argue it's forced currently. Of course I don't agree it's forced but we're arguing on your terms.

The fact is in your solution nothing changes. If you choose not to farm mythic+ it will have a negative impact on your raid. Your solution is awful.

1. it solve the "alternative" problem, if you can understand it.
2. it is also better for m+, wow, because they wont be forced to do raids to get bis trinked, for example.
3. it doesn't completly remove the "you MUST farm it all the time or there will be impact", ofc, because you wanted it to remain meaningful for raiders, it is, but less. and if a raider completly ignore m+ he will still end up with bis, so the impact is less than before. and trust me that if bis was available in raids, seeing how random m+ drops are, nobody would feel forced to do them to get bis.


4. "there is no need to make a perfect a suggestion to show a problem and ask for a solution". and as i said before you even started to try to understand it, it doesn't matter if you thing is awful or good. the problem is still there.

[Glorious Leader]

1. it solve the "alternative" problem, if you can understand it.
2. it is also better for m+, wow, because they wont be forced to do raids to get bis trinked, for example.
3. it doesn't completly remove the "you MUST farm it all the time or there will be impact", ofc, because you wanted it to remain meaningful for raiders, it is, but less. and if a raider completly ignore m+ he will still end up with bis, so the impact is less than before. and trust me that if bis was available in raids, seeing how random m+ drops are, nobody would feel forced to do them to get bis.


4. "there is no need to make a perfect a suggestion to show a problem and ask for a solution". and as i said before you even started to try to understand it, it doesn't matter if you thing is awful or good. the problem is still there.

1) Their is no "alternative problem" in terms of design. It is a problem of player psychology which is a problem for YOU I agree. Mythic+ is an alternative. An alternative to raiding. Not an alternative means for you to exploit for maximum progression.
2) I don't imagine to many M+ players are all that concerned about it. I have yet to see a thread with M+ complaining about being "forced" to run raids but I would argue they weren't forced either
3) So nothing is solved then. You still will feel "forced". Trust me you aren't forced now. You can do that content without BiS. I don't understand do you need BiS to raid or not? A raider can still completely ignore m+ and not only get some BiS but also still complete mythic raiding as well. You're waffling on this. Either it's all forced or it's not.

Fun story. I remember another time they merged loot tables like your suggesting. It did not work out well for the game.

[saeros]

Mythic+ is an alternative. You just have a particularly skewed view that doesn't correlate with the meaning of words. It is of course an alternative to raiding. You don't have to raid, you don't have to do mythic+ but you can do either and you can get meaningful progression out of both. This is exactly what they said it would be. It could replace raiding entirely or it could be a side thing if you still wanted to raid. It's a success in those terms and should remain exactly the way it is.

i think we have already talked about the word "alternative", like 15 pages ago.

you can't understand it.

it is not an alternative if the gear you need for raids in gated there.

as raid are not an alternative if some bis gear for m+ is in raid.

can you read it this time? i hope so because if not you should read all the previous pages because we already talked about it.

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1) Their is no "alternative problem" in terms of design. It is a problem of player psychology which is a problem for YOU I agree. Mythic+ is an alternative. An alternative to raiding. Not an alternative means for you to exploit for maximum progression.
2) I don't imagine to many M+ players are all that concerned about it. I have yet to see a thread with M+ complaining about being "forced" to run raids but I would argue they weren't forced either
3) So nothing is solved then. You still will feel "forced". Trust me you aren't forced now. You can do that content without BiS. I don't understand do you need BiS to raid or not? A raider can still completely ignore m+ and not only get some BiS but also still complete mythic raiding as well.

1) again, go back to page ~20
2) because probably most of the m+ players are all raiders.
3) it is an improvent that doesn't mess at all with other content, on the contrary it improves both.

there was a 4th point, i know you can't read, but there was.

[Glorious Leader]

i think we have already talked about the word "alternative", like 15 pages ago.

you can't understand it.

it is not an alternative if the gear you need for raids in gated there.

as raid are not an alternative if some bis gear for m+ is in raid.

can you read it this time? i hope so because if not you should read all the previous pages because we already talked about it.

That's because it was not designed as an alternative for raiders but rather an alternative to raiding. It is indeed an alternative but you can't see it as such because it contains rewards equal to or better than the content you like to participate in and hence isn't an option for you. Too bad.

Honestly your English is poor and it makes this kinda hard.

[saeros]

Fun story. I remember another time they merged loot tables like your suggesting. It did not work out well for the game.

ah ok, this argument is too strong.

but i also remember a time when if you wanted to do a content the best gear for that content was available in that content. it worked out really well for 10+ years.

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That's because it was not designed as an alternative for raiders but rather an alternative to raiding. It is indeed an alternative but you can't see it as such because it contains rewards equal to or better than the content you like to participate in and hence isn't an option for you. Too bad.

Honestly your English is poor and it makes this kinda hard.

yeah sure, you can't see 1 2 3 4 and the problem is my english.

[Glorious Leader]

i think we have already talked about the word "alternative", like 15 pages ago.

you can't understand it.

it is not an alternative if the gear you need for raids in gated there.

as raid are not an alternative if some bis gear for m+ is in raid.

can you read it this time? i hope so because if not you should read all the previous pages because we already talked about it.

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1) again, go back to page ~20
2) because probably most of the m+ players are all raiders.
3) it is an improvent that doesn't mess at all with other content, on the contrary it improves both.

there was a 4th point, i know you can't read, but there was.

1) You explained it. I read it. It's not a design problem. It's a you problem. Learn the difference. It is an alternative to raiding. Not an alternative for raiders.
2) Maybe it is that's hard to say. It was designed so that you could treat it as an alternative TO raiding and it serves that function really well. I fail to see why it should be changed to suit raiders when it does it job incredible well.
3) Not really. In the short term it guarantees everyone must farm mythic+ (assuming youre that guy) beause your BiS is now guaranteed to drop from no cap mythic. It "forces" people who could have taken it easier to actually now have to get in there to get BiS.

The 4th point is meaningless garbage I ignored it on purpose. That's not to suggest the rest is all that much more substantial. Their is no design problem. Mythic+ works extremely well as an alternative TO raiding. RNG concerns aside.

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ah ok, this argument is too strong.

but i also remember a time when if you wanted to do a content the best gear for that content was available in that content. it worked out really well for 10+ years.

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yeah sure, you can't see 1 2 3 4 and the problem is my english.

"it is not an alternative if the gear you need for raids in gated there.

as raid are not an alternative if some bis gear for m+ is in raid."

I had to read that a couple times. As far as I can tell you don't think it functions as an alternative that raiders can opt out of because of the gear inside. That's not what it was designed for. It doesn't exist for you to exploit it to the hilt for maximum reward. It exists to provide another avenue for meaningful progression. The fact that you exploit this to the max is not a problem with the design. It functions really well for what it was designed for. The problem is with you.

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but i also remember a time when if you wanted to do a content the best gear for that content was available in that content. it worked out really well for 10+ years.
.

Doubtful. They were bleeding subscribers just slightly slower then they were gaining them. And nobody was entertained by it once they got to max level. They always pursued the alternative. Which is exactly why mythic+ is in the game.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The root of the problem is people are a bit to obsessive over the situation. I raid at a decent mythic progression rate. Sure I do mythic+ on off days but it isn't a nose grind. Just a few of the fam get together and beat up a few to get up to 10s and then call it a week most of the time. Sure maybe that weekend I will run a few between the football games or something but it isn't, again, an insane grinding process. Granted if you are going for world first, sure, you need to be putting enough time into it to manage being the best in the world. But I have my doubts people belly aching about this are world first caliber. But if you are like most mythic level raiders than the truth is pretty simple. You do not need full 895 BIS to have a hope in these raids. I would honestly say a good raid team can pull it off in the high 860s to 870s and progress at a respectable level. But one problem this game has always had is its communities need to compare itself only with the top .01% of guilds out there. Sorry guys, but it isn't going to happen for you. You don't commit the same time to grind. You don't commit the same time to raid PTR. You don't commit the same amount of time when the raid drops. You likely aren't as skilled. You likely cannot class stack for every situation its found to work well in. It just isn't going to work for you like it did for them. Most of the reasons it doesn't are actually pretty good ones too man. It is fine not to be a professional video gamer. It is just stupid to pretend to be one when you aren't. Which is where the problem lies for most of you I feel.

But I know how it goes. I was once young too. Don't worry though eventually your eyes open, it clicks, and you can just have fun with a game you love at a pretty damn near pace you play at now without blowing a blood vessel in your brain. It just takes time.

[saeros]

1) You explained it. I read it. It's not a design problem. It's a you problem. Learn the difference. It is an alternative to raiding. Not an alternative for raiders.
2) Maybe it is that's hard to say. It was designed so that you could treat it as an alternative TO raiding and it serves that function really well. I fail to see why it should be changed to suit raiders when it does it job incredible well.
3) Not really. In the short term it guarantees everyone must farm mythic+ (assuming youre that guy) beause your BiS is now guaranteed to drop from no cap mythic. It "forces" people who could have taken it easier to actually now have to get in there to get BiS.

The 4th point is meaningless garbage I ignored it on purpose. That's not to suggest the rest is all that much more substantial. Their is no design problem. Mythic+ works extremely well as an alternative TO raiding. RNG concerns aside.

if it works for most it doesn't mean it can't be improved.

really, there is no real reason to force different loot tables. or to make one reward better than the other, you are just happy that raid is not better, if it was the opposite way you would probably agree that m+ should be improved.

i also asked it like 10 pages ago and you couldn't answer.
we have gone full circle like 3 times now.

it is a "must change or the game dies"? no, i've never said that. but this doesn't mean that it can't be improved..

does it makes people quit? no, maybe a few, probably it is not the ONLY reason, but it just something a lot of people don't like, because if someone plays doesn't mean he thinks the game is perfect. it just makes the things less fun.


your first argument was that there is no problem in the raid environment, but you have never done a raid and you understand nothing about them. You are not even in the mentatility to listen all the raiders here that acknowledge there is a problem. oh right, we are "sociopaths".

then you don't want to admit that m+ will still be a perfect alternative to raiding even with the same loot table, because it will.
somehow m+ gear needs to be better, it is just true, withour arguments.
oh right, "you remember when they tried it, it didn't work" <- the most pathetic argument i've ever heard, really .

meanwhile you keep ignoring half of what i say and you make up stuff...

at this point is useless to continue, if you want to keep this going just write something and then find my answer in the previous posts, i'm sure it will there. bye

[Glorious Leader]

your first argument was that there is no problem in the raid environment, but you have never done a raid and you understand nothing about them. You are not even in the mentatility to listen all the raiders here that acknowledge there is a problem. oh right, we are "sociopaths".

To be clear their is no problem with either the design of raids of M+. They both serve the purpose they intend. In the case of M+ it's an alternative progression path for people outside of the raid. It functions very well at this. Their is only a problem with individuals who feel the need to exploit it even though they hate it. It was not designed for that and the fact that you do is neither here nor there. You are indeed sociopaths or display sociopathic behavior.

[Deleted]

it is not an alternative if the gear you need for raids in gated there.

You don't need it. It's good,decent and in some scenarios best. But you do not need it to raid.

[Egregious]

I almost made this thread a week ago, however thought better of it knowing that there is a large swathe of the mmo-c community who seem to have a pathological hatred for raiders receiving better gear for their time investment.

The OP's post really echoes how I feel about the game.

I’m a working professional in a high pressure job, who only has a fixed amount of time to dedicate to this game every week. For me the evolution of the game worked, I had to sacrifice a few weekends and a few weeks of sleep to get through the baseline grind and then go back to my three day a week raiding schedule. As a guild filled with similar people the raiding system allowed us to keep pace with the more time rich guilds. Allowing us to average around world 800 through last expansion. Nothing amazing, but we were content with it.

Come this expansion this format has been thrown out the window, guilds we were previously competing with we no longer are and the difference is the time invested in Mythic+. Week two of mythic we were over 14 average ilvls behind our competition. Meaning that unless we invested untold hours in mythic+ (where 10 of my 14 BiS pieces come from) we were destined to fall behind. Only now are we starting to catch back up the ilvl gap. Even with this the stat optimisation in Mythic+ is worlds better than what is available in raids, ilvl is only a small part of the story.

I did some work with the WoW API last night and started querying the completion rates for Mythic+ between my guild’s raiders and what used to be our competition (it’s not anymore). The average number of mythic+ dungeons completed by our competitors ranges from 221 to 326 for each raider, while we are sitting at 112 per raider with a few outliers artificially inflating this figure…. This is a factor of two to three times…. To say it has an impact on gear is an understatement…

All this means we just can’t compete anymore. Essentially the days of being a functional member of society and a competitive raider are done. We can no longer raid smarter, more strategically and accomplish the same as the guilds full of people putting in 20+ hours a week. Now success is greatly driven by how many hours you are willing to commit to this never ending treadmill of M+ and it will kill Mythic raiding if it doesn’t change…

Yes. Thank you for stating this with a name that isn't mine.

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What choice were you making before that you can't now?

To have a life and remain a cutting-edge progression raider.

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And I ask again what choice were you making that you can't make now? You can still raid and not do much else if you don't want to. You will just find that that decision has consequences now. It will impact your raid. To ask for the removal of those consequences (the impact to your raid) is really to ask for the choice to be removed. You don't want to have to make that decision. You'd rather the developers made it for you.

Yeah, you can raid and not do much else if you want to lose your spot...

So hard to understand.

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Yes i'm sure YOU will. It sounds like YOU have a problem then. YOU can do something about. Quit playing in a semi competitive environment or leave the game I guess *shrug* In no way shape or form does this suggest that any other aspect of the game should in any way shape or form be ameliorated to ease the burden of this choice.

So you have literally said this word 6 times since I said it. Stop copying me.

[Jtbrig7390]

Yeah, you can raid and not do much else if you want to lose your spot...

So hard to understand.

Find a new group to raid with then.

You want to gut others content because your group makes Mythic+ farming a requirement. How about........No. Mythic+ is to 5man groups like raiding is to you. Nether is required, Nothing in WoW is required.

You have 3 simple options.

1) leave wow
2) leave your raid group
3) Deal with it.

The game should have never been catered around a small % of players and its a good thing legion fixed this. Now people can quest,do 5mans or hell even LFR and get good gear. Those who try to min/max need to accept they will have to do more then raiding or just stop playing the dam game.