Is this for real ? (HUGE nerf to secondary stats for ALL specs)

[Daedius]

Think Blizz wants to force people to choose between a flat stats trinket, and an effect trinket?

/shrug

[HumbleDuck]

I'm beginning to think Blizzard doesn't make the game simpler for the players, I think it's more because it makes it simpler for them. Next expansion, stats will be totally removed and your character sheet will just reflect iLvl and everything will just work as a function of that.

Sure, ok.

- - - Updated - - -

Also no, getting main stat over a breakpoint still won't be worth it, especially true for fire mages. Reaching a comfortable level of crit is really important.

First of all, it will worth it.

Now if you are talking about fluidity of a spec, those "breakpoints" are usually fairly low.
Like for fire mage, how much is that? % 35 -40 of crit? ( It always have been around thats much)
My alt in 840 ish gear has more crit than that and feels pretty solid, and I haven't even played on that toon beyond the first couple of weeks.

The point being this will eliminate alot of the problem, some specs will still remain gear dependent, but specs like fire have always been like that, si I don't see that as a problem.

[Volibear]

It's also an indirect nerf to classes that scale better with secondary stats.

[Deleted]

there is primary stats on everything but neck and rings

He is talking about increasing the current main stats value to match the DPS loss by the shrinking of the secondary stats.

Not that it doesn't exists...

Anyways, i don't think that would work perfectly as a solution (many classes still value their main stat higher than secondaries). This change mid expansion really shows how crappy the beta has been handled.

[wowaccounttom]

alright.. my class kicked butt without all those stats... back to the top!

[FelPlague]

He is talking about increasing the current main stats value to match the DPS loss by the shrinking of the secondary stats.

Not that it doesn't exists...

Anyways, i don't think that would work perfectly as a solution (many classes still value their main stat higher than secondaries). This change mid expansion really shows how crappy the beta has been handled.

i dont think people also notice that the secondary stats on necks/rings is being massivly increased to compensate

[ComputerNerd]

The intented effect of making an upgrade easier to judge is justified.
Though the ideal solution of near equally valued secondary stats while being what they want isn't an easy, if even a possible solution at all.
Hence this as perhaps the most realistic way of achieving some progress towards the goal.

i dont think people also notice that the secondary stats on necks/rings is being massivly increased to compensate

Yes, there is a trend to complain about the sky falling with a change described in isolation, when in reality that isn't how it is coming.

[l33t]

there is primary stats on everything but neck and rings

Exactly what I was talking about.

i dont think people also notice that the secondary stats on necks/rings is being massivly increased to compensate

"Massively"? "Increased"? Nope, we had rating quantity for 1% of secondary stat nerfed by ~18%. And then ratings on jewelry increased by like ~20%. Which means, jewelry pieces remain the same as pre-nerf, stat%-wise. While other 12 gear slots still got their ~18% nerf in secondaries each. So, where is the increase?

[Deleted]

i stopped caring about 2nd stats since rng decided to give me high ilvl dps stuf only as tank.
ripping hcs as top dps now while tank, geared to do fairly high m+ but not much left to upgrade unless i like to play casino even more than i already was doing.
for now on my planning is to do a few random bgs and not knowing where it ends, because i m getting on the point of nothing to do or progress.
I'm getting this awkward feeling i have to report wow as gambling game to the rating services, because it's purely time currency without limit to bet on items.
Luckely anyone with a brain knows it can't continue like this so we might have chance on bliz realizing some sort of currency has to be in game, maybe besides the all you can bet.

topic is about where it needs 450 now to get 1% it will be 500 in future, this is just me parrot some front page thing

[BiggestNoob]

Like for fire mage, how much is that? % 35 -40 of crit?

No, it's currently around 55%, with an 10% extra crit chance on Fireball/Pyro.

People are in the 40s at 880+ and the 10% extra is removed on PTR. You can't get there anymore. Without that much crit you spend a lot of time casting fireballs and have terrible PI uptime (and PI got nerfed on top of everything else). The DPS of spam casting fireballs is absolutely atrocious, among the worst sustain DPS in the game if not the worst by a large margin.

Even with 10% buffs, the sustain of fire on PTR right now is significantly lower than the sustain of live, and their stated goal was to make the sustain higher and for the spec to have less burst. It can't be done by nerfing crit, not when the spec relies so heavily on crit to do sustain DPS.

The obvious solution was to buff mastery significantly, but Blizzard employs 0 intelligent people as of 2016.

[Ytar]

I love this change! Im tired of simulating my character 15 times a day. And since my class doesnt have any important breakpoints, Im okay. Honestly higher ilvl should equal better gear. Or at least +10 ilvls should be definitely an upgrade, +5 ilvls should depend on stats. Our guild recently recruited a new players, that play WoW for the first time. When I tried to explain one of them, how to gear up properly, he was shocked that he needs external program and simulations to actualy determine, which item of two is better for him. You need simulations to build skyscrapers, you shouldnt need them to play the game...

[cFortyfive]

Once again another retarded design decision by the devs.

i dont think people also notice that the secondary stats on necks/rings is being massivly increased to compensate

Having more rating and in my case still 6% less of a stat even on surface doesn't sound terribly compensating and that's with already rather high level jewelry.

[BiggestNoob]

I love this change! Im tired of simulating my character 15 times a day. And since my class doesnt have any important breakpoints, Im okay. Honestly higher ilvl should equal better gear. Or at least +10 ilvls should be definitely an upgrade, +5 ilvls should depend on stats. Our guild recently recruited a new players, that play WoW for the first time. When I tried to explain one of them, how to gear up properly, he was shocked that he needs external program and simulations to actualy determine, which item of two is better for him. You need simulations to build skyscrapers, you shouldnt need them to play the game...

It's easy to do that though: reforging.

It actually reduces the need to figure out weights and use things like pawn.

[Charge me Doctor]

They want/need to make primary stats (Str, Agi, Int) more important. As far as effect on dps, they have not balanced anything yet. So they could easily change other factors to make up for any loss. (I know, this is way too optomistic considering it's Blizz - but in theory...)

Problem with balancing them out is that they give raw damage, while secondary stats are tangled with your gameplay. I'll continue rousing the issue of fire mage being unplayable on PTR, with needing 14% more crit rating to get same crit percentages, with loss of 5% crit, with loss of 1,1 crit multiplier and various nerfs to chain-crit mechanics (PI) while also NOT removing fire mages dependence on chain crits simply murders the spec. You now need ridiculous amount of crit just to get back to what you had on live, even after buffing damage on abilities. Because problem is not crit, and not damage of your filler, but because you can't use anything except your filler if you don't crit with it. Who cares if your pyroblast is buffed to deal 5000% of SP if you can't throw a single pyroblast during an encounter (obvious exaggeration, but expecting mages to us fireblast back to back just to be able to throw a pyroblast is ridiculous. You already have to chain phoenix flame and flameblast to be able to AoE with flamestrike, to do exactly same thing for single target rotation is just absurd).

[chronia]

Once again another retarded design decision by the devs.

Having more rating and in my case still 6% less of a stat even on surface doesn't sound terribly compensating and that's with already rather high level jewelry.

I don't think its retarded though, it seems needed seeing how secondary stats are out of hand already, i mean seeing that legion started out at 110 with like ilvl 800 gear, now at i think 879 i am already close to HFC Mythic percentages on my secondaries (with "only" a 79 ilvl increase, where in WoD you needed like a 130+ ilvl increase to reach these numbers), with only half a tier done (and not even on the higest diff), i guess we all can imagine that this will cause scaling problems with still 2.5 tiers (atleast) to release this expansion. If this goes on i can see ppl running like 80% crit, 65% haste and 100% mastery or something of that order in the last tier. I definately think that more dmg needs to be shifted to primary stats and secondaries toned down a bit and classes that rely to much on one secondary should be adjusted to rely less on that one secondary (i guess fire mages with their crit, and i reckon there might be some other specs with the same issues).

[Murderdoll]

Who cares. So long as everyone's affected by it, why care?

Because it affects far more than simply numbers. It affects gameplay. To say "Why care" shows how fucking ignorant you are of class design and how each stat effects how a spec works.

Many specs for example work very well with haste. Enhance Shaman for example, performs very slowly without haste and without mastery which triggers procs.

You nerf these two stats by a considerable amount and the spec doesnt just lose damage via numbers, you make the spec incredibly slow and boring.

So in answer to your moronic question. Why care? Because it makes gameplay worse.

You mean they're using the Public Testing Realm to TEST things?! How dare they!

Congratulations. Another idiot. This line often comes out with Beta and PTRs. Testing requires feedback. Feedback can be negative and it can be positive.

If you want to actually TEST it you need to be critical of it, think of its benefits and its drawbacks and yes, much to your dismay, comment on it.

[rda]

Congratulations. Another idiot. This line often comes out with Beta and PTRs. Testing requires feedback. Feedback can be negative and it can be positive.

If you want to actually TEST it you need to be critical of it, think of its benefits and its drawbacks and yes, much to your dismay, comment on it.

You are right, of course. That said, it is important to understand that Blizzard's player testing is there almost solely for historical reasons. They don't value it, they mostly only have the testing servers to show that they are making progress with the builds. They don't mind the players testing whatever they have on these servers, but they only briefly check the reports when they have little else to do - and that nearly never happens (because we are in the 21st century). The idea that testing feedback can influence something has been buried at least five-six years ago, only the really, really, really major and glaring issues reported during testing can ever get attention - and even then, the devs likely already know about these issues, the additional chorus of "guys, this is pretty broken, we are crashing here" from the forums is just an annoyance, they are already fixing it. The devs do random scans of the feedback from time to time and some minor questions that can be replied to (with positive news of what was already planned for further builds) on the spot, will get such replies, but that's it.

I am not saying it is good. But it won't change. Participating in testing is a waste of time, player testing is a gimmick now, they aren't actually using it, they are faking it.

[Caolela]

^ Yes, and the problem is they're faking just about everything else with the game too.

The only thing they're not lying about is when they take your money.

[cFortyfive]

I don't think its retarded though, it seems needed seeing how secondary stats are out of hand already, i mean seeing that legion started out at 110 with like ilvl 800 gear, now at i think 879 i am already close to HFC Mythic percentages on my secondaries (with "only" a 79 ilvl increase, where in WoD you needed like a 130+ ilvl increase to reach these numbers), with only half a tier done (and not even on the higest diff), i guess we all can imagine that this will cause scaling problems with still 2.5 tiers (atleast) to release this expansion.

Which was intended to help get rotations going without any foresight and was kinda redundant given how fast you can go to an at least solo playable itemlvl.
Anyway not sure if even too high levels of secondary stats are actually an issue though aside from strange interactions with class mechanics and I don't think having a nerf now would be the only solution you could come up with.

[Murderdoll]

You are right, of course. That said, it is important to understand that Blizzard's player testing is there almost solely for historical reasons. They don't value it, they mostly only have the testing servers to show that they are making progress with the builds. They don't mind the players testing whatever they have on these servers, but they only briefly check the reports when they have little else to do - and that nearly never happens (because we are in the 21st century). The idea that testing feedback can influence something has been buried at least five-six years ago, only the really, really, really major and glaring issues reported during testing can ever get attention - and even then, the devs likely already know about these issues, the additional chorus of "guys, this is pretty broken, we are crashing here" from the forums is just an annoyance, they are already fixing it. The devs do random scans of the feedback from time to time and some minor questions that can be replied to (with positive news of what was already planned for further builds) on the spot, will get such replies, but that's it.

I am not saying it is good. But it won't change. Participating in testing is a waste of time, player testing is a gimmick now, they aren't actually using it, they are faking it.

As someone who has spent the last few betas literally facepalming. I agree with you. Ive seen how irrelevant player data during PTR/Beta has become. I mean the fact they didnt even bother tuning untill second week of raid is enough evidence.

However, the mindset that "its Beta/PTR, just wait" needs to just die. Its absolutely stupid.