Healer dps (or lack of it) in M+

[Wildmoon]

I just hope they buff other healers's damage to be not that behind holy pally. -_- It obviously feels pretty good when you can weave in some damage and feel like you contribute. Not so much when you try to do damage but your damage just sucks.

[Fleckens]

Following some of "yours" logic, shouldnt dps be required to help heal if the situation requires it?

As a healer main, my priority in dungeons is to keep the group alive, dps`ing is the last thing I should be worrying about. Just like you wouldnt expect the dps to heal the party, you shouldnt expect the healer to dps IMO.

Of course they should, hybrid heals are quite powerful as well, the limit is the mana for a lot of them rather than how powerful they are, so sometimes you can quickly help out when someone is about to die or even just to top up people after a pull so the healer can drink.

For just easy dungeons you can slack but if you wanna do your best then you should do whatever is necesary and that includes dps doing more than just dps'ing and healers doing more than just healing.

As an FYI, HW: Chastise is a DISORIENT not a stun, unless talented. And the long cooldown means it should not be relied upon unless absolutely necessary.


My opinion:

If I have the chance to do really shitty dps . . . . WTF ARE YOU DOING? GO PULL MORE STUFF!

I mean seriously! If I'm not healing, it means people aren't taking damage. If people aren't taking damage, it means you can pull more trash! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING WAITING AROUND FOR ME TO DPS??? Don't expect me to dps; I'm there to heal, and if I'm not healing, it means you can go faster (or I'm OOM, so pick one). More trash = more cleave damage = faster times.

On the flip side -- if I'm back-to-back casting heals, it means that I don't have even a global cooldown for a shitty dot. If you want me to dps in said conditions, it means that someone is going to take a dirt nap.

You spec chastise to stun 99% of the time, so that's not really a good argument. As for the cooldown, even more reason to dps once in a while so you can lower it a lot. Take the big rock guys in Neltharion's lair for example, they will do a knockback on the tank followed by a heavy nuke. By spamming smite you can in fact stun every one of those casts which is a lot more efficient than just healing through it.

Also there are plenty of cases of pulling more simply isn't an option such as bolstering and necrotic, or situations where there is little damage at the moment but it will come later due to enraging mobs/raging affix. Holy damage is also quite decent, especially the aoe with holy nova. And of course, bosses you can generally always dps a bit at the start.

[Lothrik]

As an FYI, HW: Chastise is a DISORIENT not a stun, unless talented. And the long cooldown means it should not be relied upon unless absolutely necessary.

What else are you going to run in a dungeon? Afterlife or Shining Force? Lol.

The cooldown on Chastise is reduced by 6sec (8sec with Light of the Naaru) every time you Smite. It's not hard at all to have it up every 30 seconds, which is very reliable as stuns go. The only real downside is that it's not an AOE stun like Lightning Surge Totem.

[Deleted]

As a monk healer I frequently try to dps a bit to makes things faster (ie popping 3 min cd at pull to dps the boss, or aoe the mobs), but I wish fistweaving wasn't that bad

[spikeh]

Reminder that we're talking about m+. Maybe the group can't pull bigger because of affixes, maybe it's a tyrannical boss. Very few affixes above 10 allow you to make large pulls.

For farming m+ levels below your skill/gear level, healing requirements should be low so you can spend most GCDs on damage.

For pushing m+ levels above your skill/gear level where timers are super tight below 30 seconds, the fun (for me) is seeing how many GCDs you can spend on damage. During the first 2 weeks of October when the realm first +15 runs were coming in, healer overall damage was mandatory in meeting the timers.

[Wries]

thats only because paladin class in general and holy pala inparticular is broken as fuck and hopefully will be nerfed soon.

reading more i see more autistic paladins thinking their blizz gift of x00'k dps with 2 instant buttons is normal

Oh my you're a bitter one. I'll bite. Blizzard made all healer specs able to do more damage due to them imagining us running around leveling with the spec for the artifact. Paladins might come on top right now and it might, especially with the potion, get some sort of adjustment but that doesn't change the fact that pretty much any healer can pull notable damage.

And as mentioned by some.. true that for example on a +12 you're not often going to see a healer making some magic damage number on the meters because we'll be way busy actually healing :P I find it possible to make damage at the start of many boss pulls but after that it's just some occasional swings whenever possible.

[Deleted]

As aHoly Priest doing mostly PuGs I'm often embarassed by my "DPS" in dungeons. Yeah I throw a smite/holy Fire here and there but it's kinda silly. I'm not 400kDPS Holy Pala. If a fight alows me to use HALF of my time to DPS I do what? 40k DPS on a ST fight? I do it but mostly because of boredom not to add anything.

Trash packs though, thats a different story. Even after nerf you can dish a decent DPS with Holy Nova spam.

PS. Out of curiosity... How is other healers ST/AoE DPS in dungeons? I hear a lot of good stuff bout Paladins. How about others?

[InstantPoM]

Before you judge the healer for doing 0 damage, you should also take a quick peek at the damage taken list. If im in a good group I can dps to my heart's content, but i've also seen plenty of pugs where avoiding basic mechanics or utilizing stuns/interupts seemed completely foreign concepts. Healing can actually become a fulltime job then.

[Deleted]

For monks aoe is decent/good (spamming spinning crane kick), for single target it is below average (or I'm bad). Fistweaving has been nerfed repeatedly and you don't wanna take the fistweaving talents because they are suboptimal.

Drood dps is quite good in single target: you pop your dots and dps in cat form.

[Ebalina]

If there is no need to heal to keep up every one alive or barely any need of it healer that isn't dpsing is slacking.

Healer doing 0 dps on boss = slacking.
Healer refusing to dps = booted from the grp.

[Deleted]

i always dps when we run 7-9 keys. i play a paladin so it makes sense to dps when you can contribute a steady 200-250k dps on trash and 400-500k dps on bosses.

Wow you do more single target damage as 95% of the rest of the playersbase. Have a litlle trouble believing that.

[Deleted]

I'll always DPS when I know it's safe to do so - I'll never just stand there and not cast anything... always be casting something. At minimum I'll keep a Flame Shock active on the boss and throw a few Lava Bursts whenever it procs and becomes instant cast.

Otherwise I will not DPS if I think there's a risk of somebody dying, since I think it'd be dumb to let somebody die (outside of a 1-shot) when I'm halfway through casting a Lightning Bolt or something. Sure it's nice when healers can DPS, but it's about using your own judgement and knowing when it's safe/appropriate to do so.

If a healer is doing little to no DPS in a dungeon there are 2 possible reasons:

1. The group is just taking fucktons of unnecessary damage, meaning the healer has to compensate and work harder to keep them from dying.

2. The healer is slacking.

Usually in my experience it's gonna be reason #1, but I also wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of healers out there who don't believe or realise that they should DPS a little as well. It's never been much of a thing in previous expansions except maybe towards the end of WoD.

[Guran]

I find this thread to be the perfect representation of the general pug train of thoughts:
You have this constant discussion between min/max community vs "I don't need that kind of stress" AKA 'casual' players, but all you do is talk about the healers responsibilities. Nobody seems to care (as much) about the tank or DPS minimizing damage taken, interrupting or stunning as much as people care about healer damage, because you know, only one of those has an easy to read meter on Skada.

I'm sick and tired of the tank/dps 'gogo-girls' who just keep rushing forward, ignoring any and all mechanics, my mana or even their own health simply because they like to get 3s off their meaningless personal record. Hey guys, nice speed, but I'ld like to not have an ulcer after this run, so if you could kindly pull your heads out of your own arses and make my life less of a burden, it'ld be appreciated! If I actually have time and energy left during a fight to think about doing damage, I will, but if you think shouting at me for an extra 30k DPS overall matters ... well, as said above, go find yourself a disc priest and shout at them. But if you're not helping the healer do his main task (keeping your sorry behinds alive), then why do you expect him to do the same for you?

Frankly, if I'm doing a random heroic/normal mythic, me 'having' do DPS is the difference between ending 30s later or you waiting 10min in the queue afterwards looking for a new healer, because there is no reward for taking 30s less to ease my life. In M+, my damage only really matters if it's close on getting an extra chest, but overall, my mana pool and personal focus matter atleast as much, so I'ld do it when I feel comfortable doing so without losing sight of healing, but if the choice is between doing damage or letting you die to do 50k, well, you're gonna yell at me anyway, might aswell just do what I prefer.

TL;DR:
Don't complain about healer DPS if you're not minimizing healing required yourself. And usually (with the exception of some affix/group combos, such as Boltering) being able to pull more/faster, allowing the 3 meter maids to AoE/Cleave more, does more overall damage than demanding healers to do questing-level damage on top of their main job. Team work has to go both ways, otherwise it's called the healer carrying you!


@Ebalina:
I hope you also instantly shout at/kick tanks that don't taunt or DPS that don't interrupt/move out of the fire immediately, because they are slacking as well! Or you know, grow past the mental age of a 14y old when people on the internet aren't doing what YOU want them to do.

[Nzete]

I chastise every 60 seconds to try to pop my baby Naaru. If the situation merits in, I'll nova, holy fire, or smite. Depends a lot on how big the pulls are, how much crap people are standing in, and whether the group members have a good relationship with stuns, interrupts, and personal defensives/active mitigation.

[Hulm]

The way it's seen in other MMOs is that the more damage a healer does the faster everything dies = less healing had to be done. Even if a healer only did 8% of the bosses HP you still made the fight 8% shorter.

[Ebalina]

I find this thread to be the perfect representation of the general pug train of thoughts:
You have this constant discussion between min/max community vs "I don't need that kind of stress" AKA 'casual' players, but all you do is talk about the healers responsibilities. Nobody seems to care (as much) about the tank or DPS minimizing damage taken, interrupting or stunning as much as people care about healer damage, because you know, only one of those has an easy to read meter on Skada.

I'm sick and tired of the tank/dps 'gogo-girls' who just keep rushing forward, ignoring any and all mechanics, my mana or even their own health simply because they like to get 3s off their meaningless personal record. Hey guys, nice speed, but I'ld like to not have an ulcer after this run, so if you could kindly pull your heads out of your own arses and make my life less of a burden, it'ld be appreciated! If I actually have time and energy left during a fight to think about doing damage, I will, but if you think shouting at me for an extra 30k DPS overall matters ... well, as said above, go find yourself a disc priest and shout at them. But if you're not helping the healer do his main task (keeping your sorry behinds alive), then why do you expect him to do the same for you?

Frankly, if I'm doing a random heroic/normal mythic, me 'having' do DPS is the difference between ending 30s later or you waiting 10min in the queue afterwards looking for a new healer, because there is no reward for taking 30s less to ease my life. In M+, my damage only really matters if it's close on getting an extra chest, but overall, my mana pool and personal focus matter atleast as much, so I'ld do it when I feel comfortable doing so without losing sight of healing, but if the choice is between doing damage or letting you die to do 50k, well, you're gonna yell at me anyway, might aswell just do what I prefer.

TL;DR:
Don't complain about healer DPS if you're not minimizing healing required yourself. And usually (with the exception of some affix/group combos, such as Boltering) being able to pull more/faster, allowing the 3 meter maids to AoE/Cleave more, does more overall damage than demanding healers to do questing-level damage on top of their main job. Team work has to go both ways, otherwise it's called the healer carrying you!


@Ebalina:
I hope you also instantly shout at/kick tanks that don't taunt or DPS that don't interrupt/move out of the fire immediately, because they are slacking as well! Or you know, grow past the mental age of a 14y old when people on the internet aren't doing what YOU want them to do.

Yes i do.
But i mostly tank my self and i do interupt/stun/kite and use cd's as efficiently as the group allows me to.
Or you know grow past the fact that if people don't play the way the game is supposed to be played they should be called out for the slackers they are been.
Why wouldn't a healer do dps if there is nothing to heal? EXPLAIN to me why ???????? You are not doing 15+ where even avoiding 95% of the dmg you still have to heal a lot.
We are talking 5-9 key's where mostly there is nothing to do as a healer unless there is necrotic(and even then its better to dps if mobs can die in 2stun rotation then healing) or your group is made from mouth breathers that can't move out of shit stun or interupt.

[Mlz]

I highly doubt people are crying about the healers who don't dps when there is damage to heal. It's more about the fact that a lot of times with lower keystones there is nothing to heal so healers rather sit with their fingers in their asses for 10-20 secs than press 1 or 2 damage buttons. But yeah, as mentioned above, such players are just bad and there's not much one can do about it.

[kamuimac]

Wow you do more single target damage as 95% of the rest of the playersbase. Have a litlle trouble believing that.

thats because majorityof players play like shit - and mythic raiding kids in their 890 + gear are living in sweet bubble not knowing how majority of pugs look like, thats why we see commenet like "mythic 12 + is a joke / easy" when majority is stuck at +2 or +4 and barely make 1 chest timers there.

[Ebalina]

thats because majorityof players play like shit - and mythic raiding kids in their 890 + gear are living in sweet bubble not knowing how majority of pugs look like, thats why we see commenet like "mythic 12 + is a joke / easy" when majority is stuck at +2 or +4 and barely make 1 chest timers there.

If you ain't making 1 chest in +2 or even +4 you really need to reconsider how you are playing the game.
It doesn't matter what others do it matters what you wanna do.

If you feel stuck on something improve there is no other way around it.
If you do not want to improve, don't blame the others for your own shortcomings.

I have never seen some one not been able to complete +2 with 3 chests actually and i don't know how is that even possible unless you take 810 chars in it and maybe week 1 or 2 when ppl were learning how to pull and how to deal with various affexes.

[Scrysis]

Of course they should, hybrid heals are quite powerful as well, the limit is the mana for a lot of them rather than how powerful they are, so sometimes you can quickly help out when someone is about to die or even just to top up people after a pull so the healer can drink.

For just easy dungeons you can slack but if you wanna do your best then you should do whatever is necesary and that includes dps doing more than just dps'ing and healers doing more than just healing.



You spec chastise to stun 99% of the time, so that's not really a good argument. As for the cooldown, even more reason to dps once in a while so you can lower it a lot. Take the big rock guys in Neltharion's lair for example, they will do a knockback on the tank followed by a heavy nuke. By spamming smite you can in fact stun every one of those casts which is a lot more efficient than just healing through it.

Also there are plenty of cases of pulling more simply isn't an option such as bolstering and necrotic, or situations where there is little damage at the moment but it will come later due to enraging mobs/raging affix. Holy damage is also quite decent, especially the aoe with holy nova. And of course, bosses you can generally always dps a bit at the start.

Actually, I do spec Afterlife so that I can either A) keep the group up when the tank doesn't get aggro right away or people don't interrupt mechanics or B) keep up my crazy guildmates who spend the runs trying to see how much they can successfully pull. A lot of times, they *will* pull trash straight into the boss, so I won't exactly have downtime on a boss either.

Honestly, I dps when I can because it's boring just sitting around and twiddling thumbs (and unless I want to run into melee for holy nova, holy dps is really sad). The thing that bothers me though is that the OP looked at damage meters at the end of the run, rather than making actual observations during the run. What I want to know is, was the healer standing around doing nothing, or were they constantly healing because dps were standing in mechanics? You won't get that information from staring at the damage done.