Is Archimonde really dead?

[Cheapnecrolyte]

And undead can die.

Not according to Bolvar the Lich King, who claims that death is for the living.

I haven't claimed that immortals are living beings that can die, Blizzard explicitly stated this to be true.

Well then Blizzard is wrong because, as you and I can - and should - agree on, immortals can be undead and undead are not living beings that can die.

It's such an ambiguous phrase. Did they literally go to hell and cheat death in a game of battleship? Did they use magic to prolong their lives. Did they use magic to make themselves never age? Did they get resurrected and come back from the dead? Did they download their consciousness into a computer?

I mean, using magic to prolong life, staying in the Emerald Dream, binding oneself to a immortal's soul, etc.

No. That is necromantic magic. This is stated in Chronicle.

So chronomantic magic, as a force, doesn't push living beings toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion? Interesting, I thought mortals die to time or old age.

Demons don't transcend time.

Then why are you acting as if they do? You act as if demons don't age and if demons don't age and grow and die, they're not living by any sense of the term.

They experience past, present, and future. The difference between an immortal and a mortal is that an immortal's body does not deteriorate with the passage of time. Their bodies still function within the confines of time, they heal injuries and grow into adulthood.

They don't grow into adulthood if their bodies don't deteriorate with the passage of time.

If you used chronomantic magic to speed up time around an immortal, their bodies would still not deteriorate.

It's funny that you state that because you're still acting as if demons transcend - or are unaffected by - time.

Blizzard defined what immortality is. It's not the literal definition of immortality. You have a problem understanding the difference between real-world definitions and ones in fictional universes. If you want to discuss how they differ, that's fine. You are presenting an definition irrelevant to the Warcraft universe.

Actually, I am presenting a definition relevant to the Warcraft universe because the definition of immortality has meaning. You have a problem understanding that the real-world definitions still apply to the fictional universes. If the real-world definition of a term such as necromancy has no meaning to Warcraft, necromancy can basically be given any definition when regarding to World of Warcraft. And if necromancy can be given any definition by Blizzard, it can be defined as the art of communing with living cockroaches if Blizzard so desired it - which is just bullshit.

When regarding to World of Warcraft, mortals are defined as living beings that die and there isn't a single canon source that contradicts that fact. Demons, as immortals, are the opposite of living beings that die (mortals) and so demons are not living beings by any sense of the term.

The root "mortal" comes from latin meaning "subject to death." Immortal adds a negation, meaning "not subject to death." They are still living beings, they just don't die.

Immortals are living to you, a person who basically acts as if the real-world definition of a term has no meaning. Hate to break to ya kid, but immortals are not living beings if they cannot die. Death is for the living according to Bolvar and an immortal demigod of death knows much more about this subject than you do.

They are alive; just not fully. The biological functions of their bodies are stunted, but they still move around and perform actions.

LOL so those undead beings are alive? Oh man, you are funny. If those undead beings are alive, demons are undead

yet you constantly fail to use it correctly when talking about Warcraft.

No I don't.

Liches are spirits bound to something other than their actual bodies and the bodies they generate are not fully functional. Demons aren't undead because they fully regenerate their bodies.

There is a flaw with your theory. Liches use phylacteries to generate physical forms. These physical forms are not fully functional just as the physical forms of demons are not fully functional. Demons can't breed if they're aberrations from an astral, twisting, dimension that would - or does - warp penises. And their bodies do not deteriorate with the passage of time. Which reminds me, just because a demon can have a physical form does not mean a demon with a physical form is living. Demons can - and do - exist without bodies.

How can demons even have spirits that return to the Nether after they die when demons cease to exist the moment they die? Demons would be - or are - spirits connected/related/tethered to the Nether if they're from an astral dimension separate from the physical universe, but here Blizzard is claiming that demons are merely beings with spirits that exist even after they die.

This is a nice comparison. Those places do act like a lich's phylactery. The difference though is that undead are trapped between life and death.

And it just so happens that the Warcraft II manual establishes that the Nether is the realm of the dead. You know, it would make sense if fel energy is death/necomantic energy if it's from the Nether just as it would make sense that necromancy is a school of arcane magic if arcane magic is from the Nether because of what the WCII manual establishes. Convenient that the Chronicle establishes the Shadowlands as the "realm of the dead" right after I called the lying Sean Dopeland out for claiming that warlocks don't harness their power from the Nether even though they summon demons and, by extension, demonic power (or warlock magics) from the Nether.

the Demons and Ancients and even certain mortals get fully living bodies.

Demons don't get fully living bodies. Their destructive fel energies destroy structures, withering them away over time or outright obliterating them as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic, which pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Their destructive fel fire is hotter than normal fire and can't be extinguished by natural water. Oh sweet fel, I hope you're not going to claim demons are immune to destruction from the destructive fel energy.

He rolled with the impact, riding the force of the strike. As he did so, he repaid the imp who had blasted him, hitting the demon with a fel bolt that turned the cackling little monster into a pool of bubbling slime

^ An imp can be destroyed by a demon hunter's fel bolt. Imps are not immune to destruction from fel magic, which demons aren't even the source of according to the moron Sean Copeland. There's no way imps are immune to destruction from their own destructive fel fire. Heck, since imps, as demons, aren't the source of fel magic, imps were infused with fel magic - a process that would make their skin crack until they're blown into smithereens (see imp-losion spell and Varian)

If you claim demons are immune to destruction from the highly destructive fel magic, we're seriously going to need another discussion about how fel spirits can actually die. Mortal, physical weapons can't literally slash chaotic, destructive spirits if spirits don't actually "exist" and their wielders can't open portals to worlds saturated with their energies. The weapons of those who can actually open portals to worlds saturated with demonic energies are demons hunters, who are essentially demons who trap the spirits of other demons in their bodies.

If anything, the only way to rid the universe of demons is with a void.

[MikeBogina]

Not a single one of those blue posts states that he time traveled. "Space and Time!!!!" That literally means jack shit, especially when they're looking at a game mechanic point of view, and learning a few new tricks is again... game mechanic talk.

Archimonde said nothing to support this theory that he is from the future. And why would he, there's an archimonde already at this time and he is in perfectly good shape. He hasn't died at Hyjal yet and even the transmissions make it obvious that this is the Archimonde from 33years ago

Also, WoD happens at the same time as the corruption of the orcs in the MU. Kil'jaeden was present on MU Draenor at that point in time. He can't be in two places at the same time unless he time-traveled.

The Socrethar we see in WoD is earlier in the timeline than the Socrethar we see in TBC. This was past AU Othaar who was corrupted into a demon.

KJ can't be here, cause he was in MU during this time... but Mannoroth can be in both at the same time? Present Archimonde can go there, because he wasn't there? None of this shit makes sense, and it's not like it's hard to understand, it's just bullshit.

And this now means you believe that when demons are in our universe at a certain date, they aren't in others, meaning invasions wouldn't take place at the same time, which is not even close to true.

There is a simple way to look at this demons across space and time shit and you people post the stupidest shit ever that never matches up. All demons souls merged across space and time, but their bodies and memories are unique to each universe. It explains Socrethar, it explains why not a single demon mentions the other universes.

[Teebone]

Not dead. Just got thrown into the 'Hat of Badguys' they draw names from every so often when the ole' creativity runs a bit low.

[Aquamonkey]

Not a single one of those blue posts states that he time traveled. "Space and Time!!!!" That literally means jack shit, especially when they're looking at a game mechanic point of view, and learning a few new tricks is again... game mechanic talk.

Archimonde said nothing to support this theory that he is from the future. And why would he, there's an archimonde already at this time and he is in perfectly good shape. He hasn't died at Hyjal yet and even the transmissions make it obvious that this is the Archimonde from 33years ago

Did you even read them? Kosak and Afrasiabi said Archimonde shows up in WoD because he didn't completely die at Hyjal, not that this is past-Archimonde from before we fight him in Hyjal.

KJ can't be here, cause he was in MU during this time... but Mannoroth can be in both at the same time? Present Archimonde can go there, because he wasn't there? None of this shit makes sense, and it's not like it's hard to understand, it's just bullshit.

And this now means you believe that when demons are in our universe at a certain date, they aren't in others, meaning invasions wouldn't take place at the same time, which is not even close to true.

There is a simple way to look at this demons across space and time shit and you people post the stupidest shit ever that never matches up. All demons souls merged across space and time, but their bodies and memories are unique to each universe. It explains Socrethar, it explains why not a single demon mentions the other universes.

A specific demon can't be at two places at the same time unless they time-traveled.

[MikeBogina]

Did you even read them? Kosak and Afrasiabi said Archimonde shows up in WoD because he didn't completely die at Hyjal, not that this is past-Archimonde from before we fight him in Hyjal.

ofcourse he didn't completely die, he's a demon and for him to completely die, he would die across all the universes. This is past archimonde before we fight him... before AU Azeroth fights him. He didn't just time travel during HFC, he's been present the entire time berating KJ and sending transmissions to numerous demons and not once did he say "I have to come back in time to fix this shit??"

A specific demon can't be at two places at the same time unless they time-traveled.

so you believe that all these demons are time travelers now and that they only exist at one time and have to jump to countless millions of alternative universes, one after another, spewing the same shit billions and trillions of times over?

How many times has mannoroth or Archimonde time traveled to another universe and made the same mistakes over and over on purpose? Archimonde dies at Hyjal, goes back to nether and then goes to next universe, time travels and does it all over again. Makes the same surprised "Oh no, im dying to wisps again!!" reaction so the mortals dont realize anything.

If these demons were the singular time traveling demons you really think they are, there wouldn't be any universe left. No Azeroth would have made it past the War of the Ancients, since only one Azeroth is the first one they made the mistakes at, the rest they would know better. They'd also time travel, so that there's more than 1 demon in the same place as you put it, and curbstomp us easily.

Archimonde wasnt at 2 places at the same time, we changed their history and it adjusted accordingly... there's nothing more to it Aqua. Archimonde was called over to fix KJ's mess.

[Raetary]

they turned him into schrödingers archimonde.

[Aquamonkey]

ofcourse he didn't completely die, he's a demon and for him to completely die, he would die across all the universes. This is past archimonde before we fight him... before AU Azeroth fights him. He didn't just time travel during HFC, he's been present the entire time berating KJ and sending transmissions to numerous demons and not once did he say "I have to come back in time to fix this shit??"

They said Archimonde traveled across time, he learned new tricks. They said Archimonde learned new tricks from Hyjal. They didn't say, "we developers added new abilities to Archimonde compared to the Hyjal encounter." They said the character in-universe learned new tricks.

right but we're asking if Archimonde this patch is from the AU or the one we killed at Hyjal.
Archimonde is a demon whose demon soul is anchored to the Nether. The Nether transcends all realities. That is all. (Alex_Afrasiabi)

I know it's minor but it's kind of a thing. I assume our Archimonde is for sure dead, and the one we'll face is AU. The dungeon journal is saying 'space and time', it could confuse people. Better change it to say only 'spece'? Or 'The twisting nether'.
Xavius has shown us that Sargeras can re-form minions again and again. He is a Titan, and thus, the legion is endless. (Muffinus)

So killing Archimonde at the World Tree in Warcraft 3... well, he was killed on Azeroth, but he would re-coalesce in the Twisting Nether and come back to haunt us again. And the idea was if you played in Mythic and defeated Archimonde, you actually defeated him in the Nether and that he'd be dead dead for good. (Source)

When asked if this was a new Arch or the same one we killed in Hyjal, they said he shows up in WoD because he survived Hyjal, Sargeras reformed him. I wonder how he got from surviving Hyjal back in time to pester us again in WoD? If this was past Arch it wouldn't matter at all if he permanently died in Hyjal.

Archimonde wasnt at 2 places at the same time, we changed their history and it adjusted accordingly... there's nothing more to it Aqua. Archimonde was called over to fix KJ's mess.

Except Blizzard has explicitly stated several times that the events of WoD don't affect our history; it isn't Back to the Future. They only affect us directly through things we interact with and when they come through the portal.

It's complex, but: AU is a different timeline, BUT can affect our timeline if it gets through. (Muffinus)

I guess WC3 got erased then since Arch died for reals in the past...

- - - Updated - - -

So chronomantic magic, as a force, doesn't push living beings toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion? Interesting, I thought mortals die to time or old age.

They don't grow into adulthood if their bodies don't deteriorate with the passage of time.

Time doesn't do those things. It is either necromantic magic for physical deterioration, or nature magic for growth. Time just allows those processes to occur. Freeze time and both stop, as well as every other temporal experience.

Then why are you acting as if they do? You act as if demons don't age and if demons don't age and grow and die, they're not living by any sense of the term.

It's funny that you state that because you're still acting as if demons transcend - or are unaffected by - time.

Not being subject to physical deterioration is being above necromantic magic and death. It is not being above time.

Actually, I am presenting a definition relevant to the Warcraft universe because the definition of immortality has meaning. You have a problem understanding that the real-world definitions still apply to the fictional universes.

Real world definitions do not apply to the Warcraft universe when Blizzard redefines those words for their universe. Warcraft immortality is not literal immortality.

If the real-world definition of a term such as necromancy has no meaning to Warcraft, necromancy can basically be given any definition when regarding to World of Warcraft. And if necromancy can be given any definition by Blizzard, it can be defined as the art of communing with living cockroaches if Blizzard so desired it - which is just bullshit.

Yes, they can define things to mean whatever they want them to mean within the Warcraft universe. The Warcraft universe isn't the real world. It's fiction.

When regarding to World of Warcraft, mortals are defined as living beings that die and there isn't a single canon source that contradicts that fact. Demons, as immortals, are the opposite of living beings that die (mortals) and so demons are not living beings by any sense of the term.

Immortals are living to you, a person who basically acts as if the real-world definition of a term has no meaning. Hate to break to ya kid, but immortals are not living beings if they cannot die. Death is for the living according to Bolvar and an immortal demigod of death knows much more about this subject than you do.

1) Cite where Warcraft defines mortal as that.
2) That is flawed logic, based on a faulty premise. Everything in Warcraft is alive with a vital energy (Unbroken). The negation is the dying to old age. It is explicitly stated that immortals can die.
3) Even going by the real world definition of "mortal" and "immortal", your premise and logic is incorrect. "Alive" comes from Old English meaning alert or vigorous.

Well then Blizzard is wrong because, as you and I can - and should - agree on, immortals can be undead and undead are not living beings that can die.

LOL so those undead beings are alive? Oh man, you are funny. If those undead beings are alive, demons are undead

Not according to Bolvar the Lich King, who claims that death is for the living.

If you want to use some of that prefix/suffix breakdown as a blunt instrument. Undead. "Un-" means "not," therefore undead means "not dead." What's the opposite of dead? Alive. But, this is Warcraft, so Blizzard's definition isn't the same as the literal one.

Yes, they are alive, just not fully. They move around and perform actions, but the biological functions of their bodies are stunted. They are trapped between life and death (Chronicle and Rise of the Lich King).

His Scourge would cleanse the land of the living. He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion,
--Rise of the Lich King

As undead straddle life and death, they are angry at not being fully into life and can be pushed all the way to death. We've killed many undead, including Bolvar's predecessor.

There is a flaw with your theory. Liches use phylacteries to generate physical forms. These physical forms are not fully functional just as the physical forms of demons are not fully functional. Demons can't breed if they're aberrations from an astral, twisting, dimension that would - or does - warp penises.

Where does it say demons can't breed? There are male and female demons. There are even imp mothers.

How can demons even have spirits that return to the Nether after they die when demons cease to exist the moment they die? Demons would be - or are - spirits connected/related/tethered to the Nether if they're from an astral dimension separate from the physical universe, but here Blizzard is claiming that demons are merely beings with spirits that exist even after they die.

They do die, it's just that their spirits go on. Just like everything with a soul. Chronicle even says they die, they just don't die permanently unless they are killed in the Nether/fel-saturated region. Demons just get reborn in a new body if they die outside those areas.

And it just so happens that the Warcraft II manual establishes that the Nether is the realm of the dead. You know, it would make sense if fel energy is death/necomantic energy if it's from the Nether just as it would make sense that necromancy is a school of arcane magic if arcane magic is from the Nether because of what the WCII manual establishes. Convenient that the Chronicle establishes the Shadowlands as the "realm of the dead" right after I called the lying Sean Dopeland out for claiming that warlocks don't harness their power from the Nether even though they summon demons and, by extension, demonic power (or warlock magics) from the Nether.

It was more than just the WC2 manual. Demons were supposed to be actual demons from Hell. But none of that matters anymore.

Demons don't get fully living bodies. Their destructive fel energies destroy structures, withering them away over time or outright obliterating them as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic, which pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Their destructive fel fire is hotter than normal fire and can't be extinguished by natural water. Oh sweet fel, I hope you're not going to claim demons are immune to destruction from the destructive fel energy.

Chronicle makes them separate. Fel magic is from the Disorder cosmic force. Necromantic magic, from the Death cosmic force. Just like all immortals, demon bodies don't deteriorate naturally from the necromantic magic of the Death force. Immortals can still die from various attacks from various magics.

Fel magic can be used to heal and harm. Necromantic magic can be used to heal and harm undead. FFS, even nature energy from the Life force can kill things. As can Light, the originator of all living matter.

[MikeBogina]

They said Archimonde traveled across time, he learned new tricks. They said Archimonde learned new tricks from Hyjal. They didn't say, "we developers added new abilities to Archimonde compared to the Hyjal encounter." They said the character in-universe learned new tricks.

they said the boss learned new tricks, nothing more. That doesn't mean anything besides he has new abilities, which is an obvious given since it's been like 8-9 years since he was a boss last.

right but we're asking if Archimonde this patch is from the AU or the one we killed at Hyjal.
Archimonde is a demon whose demon soul is anchored to the Nether. The Nether transcends all realities. That is all. (Alex_Afrasiabi)

Soul, anchored to the nether. Doesn't know mean anything about mind and body. I'm sure there's universes where Archimonde has wings and KJ doesn't or Archimonde has a blade for a hand or something like that.

I know it's minor but it's kind of a thing. I assume our Archimonde is for sure dead, and the one we'll face is AU. The dungeon journal is saying 'space and time', it could confuse people. Better change it to say only 'spece'? Or 'The twisting nether'.
Xavius has shown us that Sargeras can re-form minions again and again. He is a Titan, and thus, the legion is endless. (Muffinus)

This is them responding to someone who doesn't even know how demons work. Has nothing to do with time travel, or alternative realities.

So killing Archimonde at the World Tree in Warcraft 3... well, he was killed on Azeroth, but he would re-coalesce in the Twisting Nether and come back to haunt us again. And the idea was if you played in Mythic and defeated Archimonde, you actually defeated him in the Nether and that he'd be dead dead for good. (Source)

This has nothing to do with time travel either, just says killing him on azeroth doesnt work, killing him in the nether does... though forgot that when making the encounter.

When asked if this was a new Arch or the same one we killed in Hyjal, they said he shows up in WoD because he survived Hyjal, Sargeras reformed him. I wonder how he got from surviving Hyjal back in time to pester us again in WoD? If this was past Arch it wouldn't matter at all if he permanently died in Hyjal.

They did not say he shows up in WoD because he survived hyjal, they explained why demons come back. That person they responded didnt understand that. The problem with this, is they're responding to people who dont know anything instead of you or me who want to know the deeper shit(most likely cause they haven't figured it out yet)

Except Blizzard has explicitly stated several times that the events of WoD don't affect our history; it isn't Back to the Future. They only affect us directly through things we interact with and when they come through the portal.

It's complex, but: AU is a different timeline, BUT can affect our timeline if it gets through. (Muffinus)

You missunderstand me, im not saying anything at all about our timeline. Im saying we went to their timeline, and the legion was taken back by this and changed accordingly to it. They're focusing on a Azeroth while KJ fucks with a side project, that side project gets totally messed up and needs fixing, so Archimonde removes himself from other projects and goes to add it.

I mean I guess i can use DBZ as an example, you watched it I bet. Trunks time travels and also goes to another timeline(technically he created it) and he goes and kills Frieza. Because of that, goku doesn't instant transmissions back and takes longer to get there. Trunks actions led to people doing different things. That's what Im saying. Archimonde goes to their draenor, because we put a huge wrench in their plans.

I guess WC3 got erased then since Arch died for reals in the past...

This is probably you still missunderstanding the last part. But this effects AU's WC3, it effects AU's Azeroth from the Orc invasion on, since the Orcs dont invade their Azeroth. What the changes are, we dont know. But it's safe to say that that universes Sargeras(not his anchored soul) is probably still in their Medihv.

[Aquamonkey]

Soul, anchored to the nether. Doesn't know mean anything about mind and body. I'm sure there's universes where Archimonde has wings and KJ doesn't or Archimonde has a blade for a hand or something like that

This is them responding to someone who doesn't even know how demons work. Has nothing to do with time travel, or alternative realities.

This has nothing to do with time travel either, just says killing him on azeroth doesnt work, killing him in the nether does... though forgot that when making the encounter.

This is probably you still missunderstanding the last part. But this effects AU's WC3, it effects AU's Azeroth from the Orc invasion on, since the Orcs dont invade their Azeroth. What the changes are, we dont know. But it's safe to say that that universes Sargeras(not his anchored soul) is probably still in their Medihv.

Except it's the same Archimonde. There is only 1 demon Archimonde. Demons are anchored to the Nether, but the Nether transcends all realities. All of those devs were answering questions about why "our" Archimonde showed up in WoD. All of their answers are that he didn't die at Hyjal. The Archimonde we see in WoD is the same one whom we failed to kill in Hyjal. So how did he end up in Year -2? Time travel, just as his DJ says he traveled across time. Archimonde didn't travel across time to get to Hyjal in WC3, he just waited 10K years from the WotA.

[Krazzorx]

Looking at the mythic fight, it looks he teleports away upon defeat, so maybe he just died at the Black Gate. Makes you wonder how canon mythic fights are. Cho'gall killing Imperator Mar'gok is canon, and as for Nighthold, Illidan kills Gul'dan, but apparently we have to defeat a corrupted Illidan who seems to have a portion of Sargeras' soul/spirit/whatever it is inside him. He could kill Gul'dan and be corrupted at that point, but we'll have to wait for the mythic completion videos in a month or so to come out for more clarification.

Id be very surprised if that cinematic is mythic only.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Time doesn't do those things.

Chronomantic magic definitely does. It's a force and, as a force, it pushes things. Since living beings can't die without time, it should be obvious to any person with a functioning brain that time is what causes death or that death magic is technically a time-related (chronomantic) magic.

Not being subject to physical deterioration is being above necromantic magic and death. It is not being above time.

You've got it all wrong. If demons are not subject to physical deterioration, something that time ultimately causes or allows to happen, demons are above time. So you're still acting as if demons are immune to time. You're still acting as if they're immune to time because you're acting as if they're immune to death or necromantic magic. You act as if demons exist inside impenetrable force fields where they're immune to necromantic magic and thus physical deterioration. You act as if demons exist in impenetrable force fields that can only be dispersed when they're in the Nether or in fel-saturated places but oh I can't wait for you to deny it. It's your very brand of stupid that got Sean in trouble.

Demons are not immune to physical deterioration. Their very energy is a highly destructive energy that causes structures to break down. And knowing you, you'd probably claim demons are immune to destruction from the highly destructive fel energy. You seem just as nuts as Sean Copeland.

He denies that warlocks (a.k.a demonologists) harness their power from the Nether, claiming that warlocks get their power from destruction. Then he denies that demons are the source of fel magic, stating that the nature of this magic is created from destroying something else. So not only is he denying that demonologists harness their power from the place demons are from, he is denying that demons are the source of an energy that Chris Metzen himself describes as demonic. Ultimately, Sean is claiming that demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy, something you can't actually create since it's an energy.

If Sean told the truth when he stated that demons contain fel magic but aren't the source, demons were infused with the highly destructive fel magic - a process that would destroy their structures if entropic horrors even have structures. Yet when asked how demons are alive, he stated it's magic when he should have stated that demons are constructs with structures that are being destroyed by their own destructive fel energies - demonic energies that would be, or are, released from that process.

Now, constructs may not be undead because constructs were never alive, but, if they have souls, their souls definitely aren't alive because they were disembodied then attached to constructs.

Real world definitions do not apply to the Warcraft universe

Yes it does. If it doesn't, we very well might be reading complete nonsense because we don't actually know Blizzard's definition of every term used in WoW.

Warcraft immortality is not literal immortality.

This is your headcanon and it's not helping your case. It's either mortals, when regarding to WoW, are living beings that die or they're not. If (key word: if) mortals are defined as living beings that die and demons are immortals, demons can't be defined living beings that die because if they can, they can be defined as mortals. No excuses.

Yes, they can define things to mean whatever they want them to mean within the Warcraft universe.

No they can't.

The Warcraft universe isn't the real world. It's fiction.

It's a fictional universe with terms made - and used - by non-fictional people.

1) Cite where Warcraft defines mortal as that.

You shouldn't be asking me to cite anything when you're the one who should be citing where Warcraft defines a mortal as anyone but a living being that dies.

2) That is flawed logic, based on a faulty premise. Everything in Warcraft is alive with a vital energy (Unbroken).

According to who? You? You're nuts because it isn't flawed logic based on a faulty premise. Everything in Warcraft isn't alive with a vital energy because if everything is, undead are alive. You should stop with your undead are dead and technically alive mumbo jumbo nonsense. Undead are dead and animate.

That whole "everything is alive" belief is the belief of a shaman anyways - a belief that is flawed and not held by everyone.

1) If everything is alive, each world is a living world and thus a titan.

2) If everything is alive, the cosmic systems of the physical universe (which are governed by the forces of order and disorder) are actually what the forces of life and death hold sway over.

3) If the shamanic belief is that everything is alive, necromancy definitely can't be spawned from shamanism. It would probably be spawned from warlocks who were once shaman that received visions of death from demons in the astral plane.

3) Even going by the real world definition of "mortal" and "immortal", your premise and logic is incorrect. "Alive" comes from Old English meaning alert or vigorous.

They aren't. There's more than one definition of the term kiddo.

Yes, they are alive, just not fully.

Pure headcanon. Undead are dead. No excuses.

Where does it say demons can't breed?

The Chronicle establishes that they can't breed. They're aberrations existing in an astral dimension that is in a never-ending state of twisting. If demons have penises and vaginas, they're twisted penises and vaginas unless, of course, the Twisting Nether isn't literally twisting and doesn't literally have energies that warp creation. If demons can have spawns, those spawns were spawned through dark magic or unnatural means.

They do die, it's just that their spirits go on.

Stop conflating what people do with what people can do. There's a difference.

Chronicle even says they die, they just don't die permanently unless they are killed in the Nether/fel-saturated region. Demons just get reborn in a new body if they die outside those areas.

Demons can be reborn? Interesting. In order to be reborn, one must actually experience birth first. I wonder who gave birth to Pit Lords. ROFLOL.

You and every other Blizzard employee's piss-poor attempt to convince me that demons are actually natural beings who can be born and reborn is so futile, you're banging your heads against a wall right?

It's not the will of the Earthmother for demons to be reborn. And it was not the will of Sargeras for demons to be reborn because if it was, he would not have created Mardum.

Chronicle makes them separate.

Awwww, it does? I'm guessing the Chronicle was retconed because I found God-King Metzen describing fel energy as essentially death energy, a necrotic power per the Chronicle, which by the way establishes that death pushes everything toward a state of fel decay (a.k.a entropic decay).

Do you think fel energy being essentially death energy was retconed because the Chronicle comes after Metzen's claim? Look, kiddo, the Chronicle may have retconed Metzen's statement, but I'm not going to act like the ignorant bimbo you want me to act like. Clearly there is a reason why Metzen established that fel energy is essentially death energy and why the author of ToD and BtDP is telling me the same thing Metzen said through Twitter and is telling me warlocks are necromancers. I'm not just going to ignore those reasons and treat fel magic as if it isn't death magic just because Metzen is some wishy washy writer. Even the Warcraft movie-related novels refers to fel magic as death magic a few times even after the Chronicle treats fel magic as if it isn't death magic, so clearly Blizzard's employees still consider fel magic to be death magic - even they consider it to be death magic only in some alternate canon.

Fel magic is from the Disorder cosmic force.

Fel magic being the force of disorder doesn't mean much. It's a force and, as a force, it pushes things. Especially as a destructive and entropic force, it would - or does - push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Magic is magic and it can be described as chaotic, destructive, necromantic, etc. It can have more than one descriptor and your inability to understand that it seems pointless establishing forms of magic is disturbing. Even forms of magic can have more than one descriptor and if fel magic isn't death magic, the question to be asked and answered properly is why fel magic isn't death magic. And since you're incapable of providing a reason why other than "Blizzard states so", you've lost.

Fel magic is still destructive and it still pushes things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion, even IF it's not death in the form of necromantic magic. It still eats souls and would - or does - leave behind undead echoes as a shadow-touched power that is ultimately a result of the light and void, even if it's not void in the form of shadow magic. And no, fel magic is not fire. If fel is fire, warlocks would be - or are - using Decay to weaponize it or Spirit to bring balance to it.

Blizzard's employees are actually quite crafty, establishing that fel fire demolished "living worlds" until a fel storm obliterated their physical forms instead of outright stating that fel magic brought them to a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. It's funny how fel magic is essentially death, but for living worlds instead of mortals. I wonder if worlds can actually be alive though because if they can be alive, they can die. And if they can die, they can become dead. And if they can become dead, they can become undead. And out of all my years researching WoW lore, I have never heard or seen any canon source establishing that worlds can become undead. I wonder why. Could it be because controlling dead, demon worlds is technically necromancy?

“Images of innumerable dead worlds flickered through his mind. He saw gigantic ruins, toppled buildings that had once reached the sky, lakes of glass where proud cities had once stood, endless plains of rubble. He saw the lights of life in the universe winking slowly out until only a few remained.
He never doubted the truth of what he was seeing. The Burning Legion left behind a trail of smoldering worlds in its wake.”

Excerpt From: King, William. “Illidan: World of Warcraft.” Del Rey, 2016-04-12. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

“On and on his spirit flashed, passing through dead world after dead world, monuments to the eternal malice of the Burning Legion. Everywhere lay ruin. This would be the fate of Azeroth and Outland and the few remaining living worlds once the Burning Legion attacked. He searched for traces of life and found nothing, not even a cockroach or a rat. Sargeras’s army had set out to cleanse these places of every living thing and it had succeeded.”

Excerpt From: King, William. “Illidan: World of Warcraft.” Del Rey, 2016-04-12. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright

Demons reside in dead, demon worlds devoid of life, including the life of even cockroaches. They have no life-sustaining sustenance when they're roaming the so-called trackless wastes of the Nether, which can be perceived in many ways. Demons are astral, entropic horrors existing in a formless abyss that the most unstable energies coalesced into and hungered for nothing less than the destruction of all life in the physical universe, which they're not from. That astral liquid that courses through their "astral" body, which you would call blood, is essentially liquid rot. They're immortals and don't need to breathe, especially that fel-corrupted air that chokes the life of living beings. You yap about demons being alive even though their functions aren't working, not like a living being's anyways. Demons are not living and as fel magic (the manifestation of disorder) is demonic, demons represent disorder or are the manifestations of disorder. They seem less orderly than an inanimate corpse, which can still have structure.

Demons aren't alive you silly goose. Stop behaving as if you're a poor chap who is incapable of realizing that Blizzard's employees are trying to fool people into believing demons are living.

[Restors]

Schrödinger's archimonde ?

Someone has been watching big bang theory

[Raetary]

No they can't.

they pretty much can, its their universe and story, they decide about its rules meanings.

[Deleted]

Blizzard: "Yes, no, maybe. I don't know, can you repeat the question?"

In a nutshell.

[Deleted]

Hopefully not ressurected again :/

[Aquamonkey]

Chronomantic magic definitely does. It's a force and, as a force, it pushes things. Since living beings can't die without time, it should be obvious to any person with a functioning brain that time is what causes death or that death magic is technically a time-related (chronomantic) magic.

Time moves events forward. It alone doesn't cause things to die. That is necromantic magic. Time alone doesn't cause things to grow either, that is nature magic.

You've got it all wrong. If demons are not subject to physical deterioration, something that time ultimately causes or allows to happen, demons are above time. So you're still acting as if demons are immune to time. You're still acting as if they're immune to time because you're acting as if they're immune to death or necromantic magic.

Death =/= time. Demons are still subject to and experience linear time.

You act as if demons exist inside impenetrable force fields where they're immune to necromantic magic and thus physical deterioration. You act as if demons exist in impenetrable force fields that can only be dispersed when they're in the Nether or in fel-saturated places but oh I can't wait for you to deny it. It's your very brand of stupid that got Sean in trouble.

This strawman is entirely within your own mind.

Demons are not immune to physical deterioration. Their very energy is a highly destructive energy that causes structures to break down. And knowing you, you'd probably claim demons are immune to destruction from the highly destructive fel energy. You seem just as nuts as Sean Copeland.

They are immune to the normal physical deterioration of necromantic magic. They are immortal.

He denies that warlocks (a.k.a demonologists) harness their power from the Nether, claiming that warlocks get their power from destruction. Then he denies that demons are the source of fel magic, stating that the nature of this magic is created from destroying something else. So not only is he denying that demonologists harness their power from the place demons are from, he is denying that demons are the source of an energy that Chris Metzen himself describes as demonic. Ultimately, Sean is claiming that demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy, something you can't actually create since it's an energy.

If Sean told the truth when he stated that demons contain fel magic but aren't the source, demons were infused with the highly destructive fel magic - a process that would destroy their structures if entropic horrors even have structures. Yet when asked how demons are alive, he stated it's magic when he should have stated that demons are constructs with structures that are being destroyed by their own destructive fel energies - demonic energies that would be, or are, released from that process.

Irrelevant rant against a Blizzard employee is irrelevant.

Yes it does. If it doesn't, we very well might be reading complete nonsense because we don't actually know Blizzard's definition of every term used in WoW.

No they can't.

They can and they do.

This is your headcanon and it's not helping your case. It's either mortals, when regarding to WoW, are living beings that die or they're not. If (key word: if) mortals are defined as living beings that die and demons are immortals, demons can't be defined living beings that die because if they can, they can be defined as mortals. No excuses.

It is the literal definition given by Blizzard.

Immortals in Warcraft are generally resistant to sickness and injury, but immortality does not confer invulnerability. Immortal beings can still be wounded and even killed. Indeed, many immortals have perished over the course of recorded history, particularly during the War of the Ancients. The death of an immortal is just as real as any mortal death and, barring a few extraordinary cases, just as permanent.

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. (WC Encyclopedia)

You shouldn't be asking me to cite anything when you're the one who should be citing where Warcraft defines a mortal as anyone but a living being that dies.

That is not how the burden of proof works. You claimed World of Warcraft defined mortals to be what you stated. Show where it did that.

According to who? You? You're nuts because it isn't flawed logic based on a faulty premise. Everything in Warcraft isn't alive with a vital energy because if everything is, undead are alive. You should stop with your undead are dead and technically alive mumbo jumbo nonsense. Undead are dead and animate.

That whole "everything is alive" belief is the belief of a shaman anyways - a belief that is flawed and not held by everyone.

Everything being alive is a revelation provided by the Elements.

"Everything that is... is alive."
After all these years of pleading, Nobundo had finally received an answer; an answer that came not from the Light...
But from the wind.
--Unbroken

Unbroken: Nobundo senses a "multitude of voices" (Life?). Then, an "energy" "in the void" (Arcane/Twis.Neth.?). Got it right?
Yep - primarily, life in all things, life on other worlds. (MickyNeilson)
So, the "new" element that was in the void, binding the world together and composed of unspeakable energy... is Life?
Life is what he senses on myriad other worlds. The unspeakable energy is what binds all worlds together. (MickyNeilson)

Those who seek to bring balance to the elements rely on Sprit (sometimes referred to as the "fifth element" by shaman, or "chi" by monks). This life-giving force interconnects and binds all things in existence as one.
--Chronicle

1) If everything is alive, each world is a living world and thus a titan.

Nope. Chronicle says there are worlds with life that don't have world-souls. The Elements are alive and "serve as the basic building blocks of all matter in the physical universe." (Chronicle)

2) If everything is alive, the cosmic systems of the physical universe (which are governed by the forces of order and disorder) are actually what the forces of life and death hold sway over.

There are 7 cosmic forces. Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, Disorder, and the Elements.

They aren't. There's more than one definition of the term kiddo.

Pure headcanon. Undead are dead. No excuses.

Maybe using a logical structure you're familiar with will help elucidate. Undead. "Un-" means "not," therefore undead means "not dead." What's the opposite of dead? Alive. But, this is Warcraft, so Blizzard's definition isn't the same as the literal one.

Yes, they are alive, just not fully. They move around and perform actions, but the biological functions of their bodies are stunted.

His Scourge would cleanse the land of the living. He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion,
--Rise of the Lich King

They are trapped between life and death, straddling both domains (Chronicle and Rise of the Lich King).

The Chronicle establishes that they can't breed. They're aberrations existing in an astral dimension that is in a never-ending state of twisting. If demons have penises and vaginas, they're twisted penises and vaginas unless, of course, the Twisting Nether isn't literally twisting and doesn't literally have energies that warp creation. If demons can have spawns, those spawns were spawned through dark magic or unnatural means.

Where did it establish that they can't breed? Just because they're aberrations doesn't mean they can't breed. The context with which Chronicle used "aberrations" to describe demons is about embracing "their furious passions" and seeking power without regard to consequences.

Demons can be reborn? Interesting. In order to be reborn, one must actually experience birth first. I wonder who gave birth to Pit Lords. ROFLOL.

Just as in the Great Dark Beyond, life had also arisen in the Twisting Nether. The creatures that emerged from this turbulent realm were known as demons.
[...]
To Sargeras' dismay, he realized that he had fought many of these demons before. After he had defeated them in the physical universe, their spirits had simply returned to the Twisting Nether. Eventually they had been reborn in new bodies.
The only way to kill demons permanently was to slay them in the Nether or in areas of the Great Dark saturated with that volatile realm's energies. Sargeras, however was yet unaware of this fact. He knew only that his current tactics were ineffective. It was not enough to destroy his foes. He needed a means to contain them.
--Chronicle

Stop conflating what people do with what people can do. There's a difference.

If they do, then they can.

The demons that fill the ranks of the Burning Legion are highly resilient. Their spirits are tethered to the Twisting Nether, making them extraordinarily difficult to destroy permanently. Even if a demon dies in the physical universe, its spirit will return to the Twisting Nether...
--Chronicle

You and every other Blizzard employee's piss-poor attempt to convince me that demons are actually natural beings who can be born and reborn is so futile, you're banging your heads against a wall right?

It's not the will of the Earthmother for demons to be reborn. And it was not the will of Sargeras for demons to be reborn because if it was, he would not have created Mardum.

Irrelevant nonsense.

Awwww, it does? I'm guessing the Chronicle was retconed because I found God-King Metzen describing fel energy as essentially death energy, a necrotic power per the Chronicle, which by the way establishes that death pushes everything toward a state of fel decay (a.k.a entropic decay).

Do you think fel energy being essentially death energy was retconed because the Chronicle comes after Metzen's claim? Look, kiddo, the Chronicle may have retconed Metzen's statement, but I'm not going to act like the ignorant bimbo you want me to act like. Clearly there is a reason why Metzen established that fel energy is essentially death energy and why the author of ToD and BtDP is telling me the same thing Metzen said through Twitter and is telling me warlocks are necromancers. I'm not just going to ignore those reasons and treat fel magic as if it isn't death magic just because Metzen is some wishy washy writer. Even the Warcraft movie-related novels refers to fel magic as death magic a few times even after the Chronicle treats fel magic as if it isn't death magic, so clearly Blizzard's employees still consider fel magic to be death magic - even they consider it to be death magic only in some alternate canon.

Funny because Aaron Rosenberg said that was his understanding, but admitted that Blizzard went with something else. You keep going back to someone who hasn't worked on Warcraft in almost 10 years with his personal understanding being more based on what went into the now non-canon RPG books. Whatever reason Blizzard had to make the changes is irrelevant, that's not how the magics work. Blizzard codified the magic of the Warcraft universe with Chronicle. And even before Chronicle, Blizzard gave you a straightfoward answer.

Fel magic is its own category. Not the same as Death, even though it drains life. (MickyNeilson)

Fel magic being the force of disorder doesn't mean much. It's a force and, as a force, it pushes things. Especially as a destructive and entropic force, it would - or does - push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Magic is magic and it can be described as chaotic, destructive, necromantic, etc. It can have more than one descriptor and your inability to understand that it seems pointless establishing forms of magic is disturbing. Even forms of magic can have more than one descriptor and if fel magic isn't death magic, the question to be asked and answered properly is why fel magic isn't death magic. And since you're incapable of providing a reason why other than "Blizzard states so", you've lost.

It's Blizzard's universe, they define it. "Blizzard states so" means that is the way it is. You can fanon your way around it all you want, but your grievance with Blizzard and its employees doesn't matter.

[Deleted]

Well, Varian was killed by fel magic and he is dead so it's safe to assume that Archimonde is dead too. And yeah, I know that demon hunters are immortal (alongside with DKs) but that doesn't include the Eredar.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Time moves events forward. It alone doesn't cause things to die. That is necromantic magic. Time alone doesn't cause things to grow either, that is nature magic.

Your head canon is irrelevant here. Provide canon sources stating beings can die without time because until then, time is what ultimately causes things to die.

Death =/= time. Demons are still subject to and experience linear time.

Death magic = Chronomantic magic because without time, beings can't grow and die. You're still acting as if demons are in impenetrable force fields that prevent death energies and thus time from affecting them.

This strawman is entirely within your own mind.

Nope.

They are immune to the normal physical deterioration of necromantic magic.

Really? So do death energies waft off their flesh as they did for Galakrand? Or are they in those impenetrable force fields that you're imagining?

Irrelevant rant against a Blizzard employee is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant because what you've done is what the seemingly ill Sean Copeland did. Claim that demons aren't the source of the demonologists' fel energy, which is demonic, and claim that fel magic is created from destroying something else even though, if anything, demons are creations or constructs with structures being destroyed by their highly destructive demonic energies - energies that would be released from the destruction. You'd then claim demons are alive because Sean Copeland, as "canon", stated that it's magic and that demons are immune to physical deterioration from their highly destructive fel energies.

What you've done is spread misinformation, ultimately telling people demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy. Shame on you

They can and they do.

No, they don't. You're still conflating what people do with what people can. It claims that demons can die, but it doesn't claim that demons die.

It is the literal definition given by Blizzard.

It's retconed material and you really need to stop confusing dying with destruction.


Now, if demons are constructs that are not immune to physical deterioration, they're neither alive or dead because constructs can't actually die. But instead of admitting that demons aren't alive and that the highly destructive fel energy comes from the destruction of demons, you've decided to stick to this notion that demonologists' don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon defines as demonic or "the dark magic of demons".

Everything being alive is a revelation provided by the Elements.
[indent][I]"Everything that is... is alive."

So, everything in the Warcraft universe is alive? Including undead? Interesting. If undead are alive, you need to explain how demons aren't undead EVEN IF they're alive. They don't have the system of mortals - living beings that die - and they're not from worlds without dead earth, fel-poisoned water, polluted air, and soul-searing fel fire. They seem just as alive as undead death knights, who can still drink alcohol among other things.

Chronicle says there are worlds with life that don't have world-souls.

The term soul is used interchangeably with spirit and the shaman said all things had a spirit. Given the logic of shaman and you, worlds do have world-spirits, so why do keep on referring to what the Chronicle establishes when what Chronicle establishes conflicts with your nonsense?

Maybe using a logical structure you're familiar with will help elucidate. Undead. "Un-" means "not," therefore undead means "not dead." What's the opposite of dead? Alive. But, this is Warcraft, so Blizzard's definition isn't the same as the literal one

Sorry kiddo, but it's not working for you.

"Un-" means not, therefore undead means "not dead". Now, just because undead are not dead doesn't mean they're alive. Constructs are not alive, yet they can be described as undead (Shirrak the Deadwatcher, Skeletons, Bone Golems, etc).

And if this is Warcraft and Blizzard's definition isn't the same as the literal one, why are you claiming:

Yes, they are alive

No they're not.

They are trapped between life and death, straddling both domains (Chronicle and Rise of the Lich King).

That doesn't mean they're alive. Beings that are alive have life and the Chronicle, the source you love referencing so much, even establishes they don't have life.

Where did it establish that they can't breed? Just because they're aberrations doesn't mean they can't breed. The context with which Chronicle used "aberrations" to describe demons is about embracing "their furious passions" and seeking power without regard to consequences.

It clearly states demons are from the Twisting Nether, an astral dimension that twists penisis and vaginas. It doesn't take cummonion with Blizzard to understand something so simple: Demons have warped body parts if they're from a twisting dimension with energies that warp creation UNLESS the Nether, when regard to WoW, isn't literally twisting and doesn't literally have energies that warp creation. Perhaps the Twisting Nether isn't literally twisting or have energies that warp? If that's the case, why are you taking the Chronicle so seriously?

Irrelevant nonsense.

According to you, a warped person who would claim demons can be reborn because the Chronicle states so, then deny that demons must go through birth first in order to go through rebirth.

So, are you going to tell me who gave birth to Pit Lords or are you going to stop acting as if you're an immature child who is unwilling to come to an agreement?

Funny because Aaron Rosenberg said that was his understanding, but admitted that Blizzard went with something else. You keep going back to someone who hasn't worked on Warcraft in almost 10 years with his personal understanding being more based on what went into the now non-canon RPG books. Whatever reason Blizzard had to make the changes is irrelevant, that's not how the magics work. Blizzard codified the magic of the Warcraft universe with Chronicle. And even before Chronicle, Blizzard gave you a straightfoward answer.

Irrelevant. God-King Metzen confirmed fel energy is essentially death energy. Aaron admitted quite a few times afterward that fel magic is death magic. Blizzard's movie-related novels describes fel magic as death magic even after the Chronicle treats it as if it isn't death magic, thus retconing the Chronicle.

"Blizzard states so" means that is the way it is.

Yeah and Blizzard's employees have actually admitted that they make mistakes so that's the way it is. Blizzard's employees not always being right about the lore = canon

[Aquamonkey]

Your head canon is irrelevant here. Provide canon sources stating beings can die without time because until then, time is what ultimately causes things to die.

The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living thing in the physical universe. The energies of Life, known commonly as nature magic promote growth and renewal in all things. Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.
--Chronicle

No mention of time or chronomantic magic anywhere in Chronicle.

It's funny you demand canon sources, yet provide none to back up your fanon.

Death magic = Chronomantic magic because without time, beings can't grow and die. You're still acting as if demons are in impenetrable force fields that prevent death energies and thus time from affecting them.

Logical inconsistency. Growth isn't part of necromantic magic. Growth is part of its opposite, nature magic.

Really? So do death energies waft off their flesh as they did for Galakrand? Or are they in those impenetrable force fields that you're imagining?

Straw man. They are immune to the natural effects of necromantic magic.

It's not irrelevant because what you've done is what the seemingly ill Sean Copeland did. Claim that demons aren't the source of the demonologists' fel energy, which is demonic, and claim that fel magic is created from destroying something else even though, if anything, demons are creations or constructs with structures being destroyed by their highly destructive demonic energies - energies that would be released from the destruction. You'd then claim demons are alive because Sean Copeland, as "canon", stated that it's magic and that demons are immune to physical deterioration from their highly destructive fel energies.

What you've done is spread misinformation, ultimately telling people demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy. Shame on you

It's retconed material and you really need to stop confusing dying with destruction.

Now, if demons are constructs that are not immune to physical deterioration, they're neither alive or dead because constructs can't actually die. But instead of admitting that demons aren't alive and that the highly destructive fel energy comes from the destruction of demons, you've decided to stick to this notion that demonologists' don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon defines as demonic or "the dark magic of demons".

Demons are a form of life.

Just as in the Great Dark Beyond, life had also arisen in the Twisting Nether. The creatures that emerged from this turbulent realm were known as demons.
--Chronicle

The only standouts are abyssals and infernals: "mindless amalgamations of matter and fel energy, created by more powerful and intelligent demons."

No, they don't. You're still conflating what people do with what people can. It claims that demons can die, but it doesn't claim that demons die.

Chronicle says multiple times that demons die permanently when killed in the Nether or places saturated with fel.

So, everything in the Warcraft universe is alive? Including undead? Interesting. If undead are alive, you need to explain how demons aren't undead EVEN IF they're alive. They don't have the system of mortals - living beings that die - and they're not from worlds without dead earth, fel-poisoned water, polluted air, and soul-searing fel fire. They seem just as alive as undead death knights, who can still drink alcohol among other things.

I don't have to explain it. Chronicle explicitly states that demons are alive.

The term soul is used interchangeably with spirit and the shaman said all things had a spirit. Given the logic of shaman and you, worlds do have world-spirits, so why do keep on referring to what the Chronicle establishes when what Chronicle establishes conflicts with your nonsense?

A world-soul is not the same as the total of souls living on a world.

"Un-" means not, therefore undead means "not dead". Now, just because undead are not dead doesn't mean they're alive. Constructs are not alive, yet they can be described as undead (Shirrak the Deadwatcher, Skeletons, Bone Golems, etc).

And if this is Warcraft and Blizzard's definition isn't the same as the literal one, why are you claiming:

No they're not.

That doesn't mean they're alive. Beings that are alive have life and the Chronicle, the source you love referencing so much, even establishes they don't have life.

They are trapped between life and death. They straddle life and death.

He stood straddling the worlds; he was alive after a fashion...
--Rise of the Lich King

It clearly states demons are from the Twisting Nether, an astral dimension that twists penisis and vaginas. It doesn't take cummonion with Blizzard to understand something so simple: Demons have warped body parts if they're from a twisting dimension with energies that warp creation UNLESS the Nether, when regard to WoW, isn't literally twisting and doesn't literally have energies that warp creation. Perhaps the Twisting Nether isn't literally twisting or have energies that warp? If that's the case, why are you taking the Chronicle so seriously?

Red herring fallacy. None of this states or even implies that they can't breed.

According to you, a warped person who would claim demons can be reborn because the Chronicle states so, then deny that demons must go through birth first in order to go through rebirth.

So, are you going to tell me who gave birth to Pit Lords or are you going to stop acting as if you're an immature child who is unwilling to come to an agreement?

Ad hominem. Demons are living beings and they get reborn when they don't die in a specific way.

Irrelevant. God-King Metzen confirmed fel energy is essentially death energy. Aaron admitted quite a few times afterward that fel magic is death magic. Blizzard's movie-related novels describes fel magic as death magic even after the Chronicle treats it as if it isn't death magic, thus retconing the Chronicle.

Red herring fallacy. Rosenberg's contract with Blizzard had long expired and most of his work had been deemed non-canon. The movie universe is irrelevant to the main canon, they are explicitly separate.

Yeah and Blizzard's employees have actually admitted that they make mistakes so that's the way it is. Blizzard's employees not always being right about the lore = canon

Chronicle was published to fix the mistakes. I'm well aware of the mistakes and inconsistencies Blizzard has made, but this isn't a discussion about Blizzard's mistakes. This is you ranting about Blizzard disagreeing with you.

[Eats Compost]

As per the blue quote, they've left it up in the air on a "do we want to use him again?" basis.

Also, as an aside; I love your work, Aquamonkey. Every time I see the happy man with a smiling butt, I prepare for solid lore points and thorough citations. I'm never disappointed.