First Republican 'faithless elector' announces intent to vote against Trump

[Cthulhu 2020]

I could not disagree with your recollection of events more, regarding the Patriot Act. I recall both sides freaking the fuck out pretty much in unison. I think you have a thing going where you assume every Conservative agreed with everything Bush did, a person who isn't really a Conservative. Bush was as much of a big spending liberal as this country has ever seen. If you want to see how Conservatives feel about the politics of the Bush family, I present to you Jeb Bush, who paid ~$25k for every primary vote he got.

Kids staying on their parents insurance pre-dates Obamacare, and was signed in to law by Bush. Just sayin...

The bottom line on Obamacare, is that the right said it would cost a fortune, and care would go down. It would appear both are true and cannot be logically refuted in any fact based argument.

You must be thinking about yourself and a few others. The giant conservative circle jerks thought otherwise. Sean Hannity was absolutely licking Bush's nuts for all 8 years. Bush could do absolutely no wrong in their eyes. The patriot act? Was to catch terrorists, and if you thought otherwise you were a terrorist sympathizer. The wars? You're a traitor if you didn't like them. Big spending? You're unAmerican if you thought Bush's spending plans were bad.

Much the same as how you're "Not a REAL American" if you didn't vote Trump. But they never explained what values "being a REAL American" involved, it only ever seemed to involve voting for Trump. Which is one of the MANY reasons I say they never voted for ideas, policy, or values. They voted for a name and false promises.

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So you are claiming basically that anytime we oppose a liberal policy that came out in the last 8 years we are doing it because we are racist against Obama instead of simply disagreeing with a liberal policy?

Is it possible in your mind for someone to disagree with Obama without being a racist, or disagree with Hillary without being a sexist?

Nah I never bought into ALL people being racist because they didn't like Obama. But most of it was pretty irrational in the same vein as hating him because he was black. They hated him because he was COMMUNIST, or SOCIALIST, or KENYAN, or MUSLIM. All basically the same irrationality as hating him because he's black.

So no, people aren't racist for disliking Obama, but many disliked him for equally irrational thinking.

Those who did actually dislike him for "policy" were licking Bush's nuts for the same policy.

If you actually disliked much of Bush's policy for the same reason that you disliked Obama's, then congratulations, you're a special snowflake, and not the norm for "conservatives".

[Tijuana]

You must be thinking about yourself and a few others. The giant conservative circle jerks thought otherwise. Sean Hannity was absolutely licking Bush's nuts for all 8 years. Bush could do absolutely no wrong in their eyes. The patriot act? Was to catch terrorists, and if you thought otherwise you were a terrorist sympathizer. The wars? You're a traitor if you didn't like them. Big spending? You're unAmerican if you thought Bush's spending plans were bad.

Much the same as how you're "Not a REAL American" if you didn't vote Trump. But they never explained what values "being a REAL American" involved, it only ever seemed to involve voting for Trump. Which is one of the MANY reasons I say they never voted for ideas, policy, or values. They voted for a name and false promises.

I can assure you I spend exactly zero time watching, or listening, to Sean Fucking Hannity. Holy shit that guy is a Kool-Aid drinker. I can't listen to people who say shit like, "Liberals are ruining the country because they hate America", etc. That's just nonsense and it's not intellectually stimulating, or entertaining, in any way.

However, I find it bizarre that you think conservatives didn't criticize Bush. Why would they not? He has nothing to do with conservatism, aside from an R by his name. His father was the same squishy version of Conservatism that was rejected in 1980, and he only got elected because Reagan's administration was so successful, and since he wasn't a real conservative, he got some of those Reagan Democrat votes.

If you guys are all watching Sean Fucking Hannity, and thinking this is a relevant voice for Conservatives, holy shit it's all making sense now.

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You must be thinking about yourself and a few others. The giant conservative circle jerks thought otherwise. Sean Hannity was absolutely licking Bush's nuts for all 8 years. Bush could do absolutely no wrong in their eyes. The patriot act? Was to catch terrorists, and if you thought otherwise you were a terrorist sympathizer. The wars? You're a traitor if you didn't like them. Big spending? You're unAmerican if you thought Bush's spending plans were bad.

Much the same as how you're "Not a REAL American" if you didn't vote Trump. But they never explained what values "being a REAL American" involved, it only ever seemed to involve voting for Trump. Which is one of the MANY reasons I say they never voted for ideas, policy, or values. They voted for a name and false promises.

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Nah I never bought into ALL people being racist because they didn't like Obama. But most of it was pretty irrational in the same vein as hating him because he was black. They hated him because he was COMMUNIST, or SOCIALIST, or KENYAN, or MUSLIM. All basically the same irrationality as hating him because he's black.

So no, people aren't racist for disliking Obama, but many disliked him for equally irrational thinking.

Those who did actually dislike him for "policy" were licking Bush's nuts for the same policy.

If you actually disliked much of Bush's policy for the same reason that you disliked Obama's, then congratulations, you're a special snowflake, and not the norm for "conservatives".

They hated him for the same reason they hated Bill Clinton: He is a Democrat. There is no need to read any further in to it, than that.

[Kujako]

They hated him for the same reason they hated Bill Clinton: He is a Democrat. There is no need to read any further in to it, than that.

So "Kenyan" and "Muslim" are just synonyms for "Democrat"?

[cubby]

Bingo. Again, just imagine what they're saying to each other behind closed doors if this is the dangerous shit they are willing to put forward as their public policy positions.

It's insane.


Some people are so steeped in willful ignorance that they can't even imagine what objective reality looks like anymore.

The thought of Trump-the-enabler, along with Conway and her crazy train methods, Trump's son waiting in the wings for 2024 President, and the GOP's veiled voter suppression platform is truly terrifying for the future of the United States. It would virtually lock in GOP power for a complete generation.

[Tijuana]

So "Kenyan" and "Muslim" are just synonyms for "Democrat"?

I don't see your point. If your point is that everyone on the right is a birther, then obviously I reject that notion, as it has no intellectual or logical merit.

[Espe]

So "Kenyan" and "Muslim" are just synonyms for "Democrat"?

Clearly.

The scary part is Trump was one of the main people broadcasting that shit, when he wasn't busy bragging about sexually assaulting young girls and women or about how he would fuck his own daughter if he could, of course.

I will say this for him, he was the perfect candidate for Republicans.

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I don't see your point. If your point is that everyone on the right is a birther, then obviously I reject that notion, as it has no intellectual or logical merit.

Not everybody, just all of their leadership and politicians and a vast majority of the coalition of bigots and morons they've admitted to building via the Southern Strategy.

[Deleted]

So "Kenyan" and "Muslim" are just synonyms for "Democrat"?

Same reason "Racist" and "Misogynist" are used as synonyms for "Republican" I guess.

[Tijuana]

Clearly.

The scary part is Trump was one of the main people broadcasting that shit, when he wasn't busy bragging about sexually assaulting young girls and women or about how he would fuck his own daughter if he could, of course.

I will say this for him, he was the perfect candidate for Republicans.

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Not everybody, just all of their leadership and politicians and a vast majority of the coalition of bigots and morons they've admitted to building via the Southern Strategy.

Wow, you really did drink the Kool-Aid huh? I think that other poster was right that I'm wasting my time trying to have a discussion with you.

[Cthulhu 2020]

If you guys are all watching Sean Fucking Hannity, and thinking this is a relevant voice for Conservatives, holy shit it's all making sense now..

Lol.

Much in the same way that much of this forum copy pastas Hannity, Breitbart and Infowars, during the Bush administration they did the exact same thing. Rational thinking conservatives were not the norm in any way. Most of the media and internet was dominated by like-minded people to Hannity.

But as I said, in many ways you are a lot more rational than the norm for conservatives. In much the same way that the "Never Trump" camp are the rational thinkers, they are in fact a small minority.

[Bodakane]

You quoted me but, in no way did you even begin to answer my direct question to you. Why?

I think you are looking back through some rose colored glasses if you think the right was just in LOVE with Bush and his policies. I have no idea how anyone could think that. Did they agree with him more than they agree with Democrats? Of course. But your extrapolations are based purely in fantasy.

Do you have even the most remote clue, as to why those "patriot" groups started? It was Obamacare, dude. You are literally linking a graph that shows the rise of the Tea Party, and not recognizing that the movement started out of a public rejection of Obamacare, but of Obama himself, an idea floated by NOBODY on earth until now.

Also, if you think there was ever a time, post-1960s, where Republicans were in favor of big government, I doubt we are even going to get anywhere with this discussion, because holy shit, Batman, that is just insane.

I mean, I have really seen it all now, if you are claiming that conservatives only became anti-government because Obama was pro-government.

They aren't anti-government. They are pro government.

They want the government to force marriage rules, Christianity, anti-free speech, pro registrations, etc. A person cannot be more Pro Government than taking the side of the police in matters of killing unarmed citizens.

The simple fact of the matter is that the right is only anti government when it comes to taxes, guns and civil rights.

[Espe]

Wow, you really did drink the Kool-Aid huh?

You really need to stop talking to yourself in the mirror, Tj.

[Tijuana]

They aren't anti-government. They are pro government.

They want the government to force marriage rules, Christianity, anti-free speech, pro registrations, etc. A person cannot be more Pro Government than taking the side of the police in matters of killing unarmed citizens.

The simple fact of the matter is that the right is only anti government when it comes to taxes, guns and civil rights.

No offense but, I think you are conflating two issues. When people say they want "smaller government", they mean they want less of the economy tied up in government endeavors, which are nearly always inefficient. Being for smaller government doesn't mean you want the authority of government to be nil, and for anarchy to break out. Hell, if anything, the quickest way to get to a dictatorship is to have a weak government when the dictator takes power.

That said, I could not agree more that Republicans are every bit as authoritarian as Democrats. They pay lip service to Libertarian voices, but not much more.

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You really need to stop talking to yourself in the mirror, Tj.

Did you just "I'm rubber and you're glue" me? Go away kid. Nothing you are saying is interesting.

[Espe]

Go away kid. Nothing you are saying is interesting.

Real mature.

Again this seems like the kind of situation where you should be taking your own advice. You'll never grow as a person without at least some introspection.

[Cthulhu 2020]

No offense but, I think you are conflating two issues. When people say they want "smaller government", they mean they want less of the economy tied up in government endeavors, which are nearly always inefficient. Being for smaller government doesn't mean you want the authority of government to be nil, and for anarchy to break out. Hell, if anything, the quickest way to get to a dictatorship is to have a weak government when the dictator takes power.

That said, I could not agree more that Republicans are every bit as authoritarian as Democrats. They pay lip service to Libertarian voices, but not much more.

Much of the small government screamers also say they want to get rid of the "alphabet soup" agencies. You know, FBI, CIA, DOT, EPA, DLS, all of those agencies that protect our water, our air, our food, our drugs, keep them all free of poisoning us. Agencies that make sure our roadways are safe to drive on, agencies that investigate major crimes, agencies that... well I'm sure you get the picture.

In a sense, they want law enforcement and not much of anything else.

Oh and medicare, don't you DARE take away conservative socialist medicare!

[Bodakane]

No offense but, I think you are conflating two issues. When people say they want "smaller government", they mean they want less of the economy tied up in government endeavors, which are nearly always inefficient. Being for smaller government doesn't mean you want the authority of government to be nil, and for anarchy to break out. Hell, if anything, the quickest way to get to a dictatorship is to have a weak government when the dictator takes power.

That said, I could not agree more that Republicans are every bit as authoritarian as Democrats. They pay lip service to Libertarian voices, but not much more.

Nope, i'm not conflating anything.

I've heard your explanation of small government, I've also heard other cons say its wanting smaller government over all (think the Bundys, for example). I've also heard from other cons that smaller government is about wanting state government to be more important then federal government. In the end, the argument is always the same......they mistrust the government and just want their guns, to not pay any taxes and to not be told they have to accept other religions/races/genders/sexual orientations/etc.

[Luxxor]

I will never stop laughing if the College gives it to Clinton.

I an only imagine how many candles you will light at your Hillary shrine if that happens. Good thing your dreamworld is just that.

[Tijuana]

Much of the small government screamers also say they want to get rid of the "alphabet soup" agencies. You know, FBI, CIA, DOT, EPA, DLS, all of those agencies that protect our water, our air, our food, our drugs, keep them all free of poisoning us. Agencies that make sure our roadways are safe to drive on, agencies that investigate major crimes, agencies that... well I'm sure you get the picture.

In a sense, they want law enforcement and not much of anything else.

Oh and medicare, don't you DARE take away conservative socialist medicare!

In 2007, there were 42 different agencies regulating and watch dogging banks. Did we simply not have enough alphabet soup?

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Nope, i'm not conflating anything.

I've heard your explanation of small government, I've also heard other cons say its wanting smaller government over all (think the Bundys, for example). I've also heard from other cons that smaller government is about wanting state government to be more important then federal government. In the end, the argument is always the same......they mistrust the government and just want their guns, to not pay any taxes and to not be told they have to accept other religions/races/genders/sexual orientations/etc.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was hoping you would take an intellectual stance on the issues, and that enjoyable debate would ensue.

If you want it put in a smaller bite, what Conservatives are all up in arms about over government, is that giant bureaucracies are woefully inefficient, and giving them too much power is dangerous. To help you understand their position, replace words "big government" and "big corporation". Does that make more sense now?

I mean, really the root divide in America between the left and right, is that the right views the public as "us" and the government as "them", while the left views government as "us" and corporations as "them".

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I will never stop laughing if the College gives it to Clinton.

Regardless of a person's politics, I think that would be a VERY scary scenario. I don't see how that would not result in violence, and possibly civil war.

[shimerra]

I an only imagine how many candles you will light at your Hillary shrine if that happens. Good thing your dreamworld is just that.

Bold words from a man who's favorite toy is a mold of Trump's dick .

[Luxxor]

Bold words from a man who's favorite toy is a mold of Trump's dick .

Well he sure stuck it right up your liberal ass, didnt he?

[Cthulhu 2020]

In 2007, there were 42 different agencies regulating and watch dogging banks. Did we simply not have enough alphabet soup?

Their necessity does not mean they are infallible.

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Well he sure stuck it right up your liberal ass, didnt he?

The poor rural conservatives will be feeling the hurt the most. But when the economy starts failing a year and a half from the end of Trump's presidency, we can just blame it on Obama the next Democrat president we elect to fix all the problems Bush Trump creates.