A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Traveler Voltin]

Ranged tanking will never work

[Ielenia]

Ranged tanking?

Is very unlikely to ever happen because, from the get-go, presents one massive problem: design and balance bosses to work well without a tank in melee range. A boss that isn't stationary and melee attacks a lot, like, for example, Garrosh, or Patchwerk, would just run to the "ranged tank", rendering the fact it's a ranged tank meaningless. Remember that the majority of bosses are melee, and some even have a mechanic or two where you have to move the boss around the place. A "ranged tank" would have much more difficulty than a melee tank to do such a thing.

[Teriz]

Ranged tanking will never work

Sure it could!

-Place a device near the boss and the device activates a shield or barrier of some type that generates aggro. The actual ranged tank attacks from a distance, strafing and attacking the boss. Aggro produced by the actual tank will generate from the shield instead.

-The barrier is split between the device and the player. When the boss attacks the barrier, it causes a passive that damages the ranged tank, just at a reduced amount of damage. You can call that ability "Feedback loop" or something. It's the ranged tank's job to keep the barrier up.

- The ranged tank will have abilities to maintain the barrier and their health. If the barrier falls, the tank is in big trouble. The barrier can be disabled and deployed quickly in case you need the boss to move.

It would be a complex method of tanking, but I think it could work.

[Ielenia]

Sure it could!

-Place a device near the boss and the device activates a shield or barrier of some type that generates aggro. The actual ranged tank attacks from a distance, strafing and attacking the boss. Aggro produced by the actual tank will generate from the shield instead.

-The barrier is split between the device and the player. When the boss attacks the barrier, it causes a passive that damages the ranged tank, just at a reduced amount of damage. You can call that ability "Feedback loop" or something. It's the ranged tank's job to keep the barrier up.

- The ranged tank will have abilities to maintain the barrier and their health. If the barrier falls, the tank is in big trouble. The barrier can be disabled and deployed quickly in case you need the boss to move.

... So, in essence, melee tanking? Because, in the end, the tank is still taking damage from melee attacks.

[Traveler Voltin]

So remove melee dps from the game then?

[Teriz]

... So, in essence, melee tanking? Because, in the end, the tank is still taking damage from melee attacks.

Yeah, but the player is tanking/using abilities from range.

In other words: Ranged tanking.

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So remove melee dps from the game then?

Why would you need to remove melee DPS?

[Ielenia]

Yeah, but the player is tanking/using abilities from range.

In other words: Ranged tanking.

The point is completely negated because the "ranged tank" is still taking melee damage. Besides, many, many bosses apply debuffs to their targets, yet pets/companions/summoned units are very rarely affected by debuffs AND take no AE damage. Imagine fights like Patchwerk, The Butcher, and, a more recent example, Guarm, which require the two tanks to be standing right on top of each other, and the bosses DO NOT target pets/companions/summoned units.

[Teriz]

The point is completely negated because the "ranged tank" is still taking melee damage.

The goal of a ranged tank is to be able to attack a boss from range the way a Hunter or caster attacks from range. That style of combat I outlined would give you that. You would sort of have to take melee damage from the boss because a lot of bosses are melee. So my concept is a win-win: You get to move around like a ranged class, and the other tanks which are melee will still be valid.

Besides, many, many bosses apply debuffs to their targets, yet pets/companions/summoned units are very rarely affected by debuffs AND take no AE damage. Imagine fights like Patchwerk, The Butcher, and, a more recent example, Guarm, which require the two tanks to be standing right on top of each other, and the bosses DO NOT target pets/companions/summoned units.

Make it so the bosses CAN target the barrier with debuffs, AoE, etc. The debuffs and the damage will simply transfer over to the actual tank via the feedback loop passive. BTW, the healer should be targeting the player, not the barrier. The barrier's health is the tank's responsibility.

[Ryuji]

Would be neat to see a Tinker class. Tank, DPS, Healer spec could work for 'em imo. Just spitballing here, likely been mentioned before but eh. Their class resource being steam or something along those lines. The more steam you have, the higher your damage/healing would be, generated by using abilities, consumed over time. Maximum heat being optimal. Kinda like rage maybe?

Tank spec could be getting in a mech similar to this:



Tank could be something named like Mekgineer. Tanking while in a mech, using barriers, shield pylons, health regenerating drones as well as being able to leap or jet boost to move in or out of things quickly, stuns, shrapnel shotguns, flamethrowers etc. Imo that'd be awesome. Or maybe even the mech being a defensive cooldown where your armor increases by A LOT or...something.

DPS could be named Saboteur or...something. a ranged spec(considering every new class added since Wrath has been melee), using guns, explosives, grenades, drones, flamethrowers, shock cannons, mines, explosive sheep, rockets. Could even add like a cover barrier to block line of sight on a medium ish cooldown or something. DPS cooldown(s) could be like overclocking your weaponry to push out more oomph.

Healer could be named Medic(original I know), using drones and syringe guns or medical equipment to heal teammates. Basically Ana from Overwatch but in WoW, with a steampunk/steam esque feel to it?

[Rhamses]

Sure it could!

-Place a device near the boss and the device activates a shield or barrier of some type that generates aggro. The actual ranged tank attacks from a distance, strafing and attacking the boss. Aggro produced by the actual tank will generate from the shield instead.

-The barrier is split between the device and the player. When the boss attacks the barrier, it causes a passive that damages the ranged tank, just at a reduced amount of damage. You can call that ability "Feedback loop" or something. It's the ranged tank's job to keep the barrier up.

- The ranged tank will have abilities to maintain the barrier and their health. If the barrier falls, the tank is in big trouble. The barrier can be disabled and deployed quickly in case you need the boss to move.

It would be a complex method of tanking, but I think it could work.

That's a pretty cool idea Teriz. Nice job!

[Ielenia]

The goal of a ranged tank is to be able to attack a boss from range the way a Hunter or caster attacks from range. That style of combat I outlined would give you that. You would sort of have to take melee damage from the boss because a lot of bosses are melee. So my concept is a win-win: You get to move around like a ranged class, and the other tanks which are melee will still be valid.

Your idea doesn't make sense for various reasons, some of them being (but not limited to) the fact that your idea ignores the fact that bosses ignore pets for aggro and as targets (said barrier, in terms of gameplay mechanic, would be considered a pet), and the fact that said tank would be basically useless on fights with a lot of boss movement (like heroic+ Ursoc). Besides, isn't the "ranged" concept not taking in melee damage if you're not in melee?

Make it so the bosses CAN target the barrier with debuffs, AoE, etc. The debuffs and the damage will simply transfer over to the actual tank via the feedback loop passive. BTW, the healer should be targeting the player, not the barrier. The barrier's health is the tank's responsibility.

Yeah. What a way to trivialize some boss mechanics, like Xavius' boss debuff where the tank has to run away from the raid to not blow them up. Or when there's adds: let the boss focus on attacking the barrier while the """"ranged"""" tank goes around tagging the adds. Makes such mechanics so trivial...

[Teriz]

Your idea doesn't make sense for various reasons, some of them being (but not limited to) the fact that your idea ignores the fact that bosses ignore pets for aggro and as targets (said barrier, in terms of gameplay mechanic, would be considered a pet), and the fact that said tank would be basically useless on fights with a lot of boss movement (like heroic+ Ursoc). Besides, isn't the "ranged" concept not taking in melee damage if you're not in melee?

Again, simply design the barrier to not be considered a pet or a summon by the boss. For the boss fights that require a lot of movement, the tank would simply bring the barrier down and pull the boss themselves.

Yeah. What a way to trivialize some boss mechanics, like Xavius' boss debuff where the tank has to run away from the raid to not blow them up. Or when there's adds: let the boss focus on attacking the barrier while the """"ranged"""" tank goes around tagging the adds. Makes such mechanics so trivial...

And again, the player would be taking damage from the barrier getting attacked by the boss or mob. The ranged tank would have to bring down the barrier in order to not get hit by a big boss nuke. The challenge is barrier management, and avoiding getting hit while strafing the boss and adds.

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Would be neat to see a Tinker class. Tank, DPS, Healer spec could work for 'em imo. Just spitballing here, likely been mentioned before but eh. Their class resource being steam or something along those lines. The more steam you have, the higher your damage/healing would be, generated by using abilities, consumed over time. Maximum heat being optimal. Kinda like rage maybe?

Tank spec could be getting in a mech similar to this:



Tank could be something named like Mekgineer. Tanking while in a mech, using barriers, shield pylons, health regenerating drones as well as being able to leap or jet boost to move in or out of things quickly, stuns, shrapnel shotguns, flamethrowers etc. Imo that'd be awesome. Or maybe even the mech being a defensive cooldown where your armor increases by A LOT or...something.

DPS could be named Saboteur or...something. a ranged spec(considering every new class added since Wrath has been melee), using guns, explosives, grenades, drones, flamethrowers, shock cannons, mines, explosive sheep, rockets. Could even add like a cover barrier to block line of sight on a medium ish cooldown or something. DPS cooldown(s) could be like overclocking your weaponry to push out more oomph.

Healer could be named Medic(original I know), using drones and syringe guns or medical equipment to heal teammates. Basically Ana from Overwatch but in WoW, with a steampunk/steam esque feel to it?

Very cool concepts! I really like the names you're using for some of these specs.

[Ielenia]

Again, simply design the barrier to not be considered a pet or a summon by the boss. For the boss fight requires a lot of movement, the tank would simply bring the barrier down and pull the boss.

Which trivializes boss movement mechanics.

And again, the player would be taking damage from the barrier getting attacked by the boss or mob. The ranged tank would have to bring down the barrier in order to not get hit by a big boss nuke.

Which would screw up boss positioning.

The challenge is barrier management, and avoiding getting hit while strafing the boss and adds.

There is no "avoiding getting hit" because the tank is always getting hit since he would take the damage the barrier takes. Not to mention that deploying and re-deploying the barrier would reset its aggro, and the fact the barrier is a stationary, unmoving thing, defensive stats like armor, dodge and parry become useless.

[Teriz]

Which trivializes boss movement mechanics.

Opinion

Which would screw up boss positioning.

I don't see how a paladin moving out of the range of a big nuke is any different than bringing the barrier down and then bringing it back up a few seconds later.

There is no "avoiding getting hit" because the tank is always getting hit since he would take the damage the barrier takes.

I mean getting double tapped from the boss and the adds and crap from around the boss.

Not to mention that deploying and re-deploying the barrier would reset its aggro, and the fact the barrier is a stationary, unmoving thing, defensive stats like armor, dodge and parry become useless.

The barrier simply transfers itself to the ranged tank, so you're actually bouncing the barrier from yourself to the targeted location, so the aggro only resets if the actual player dies. Additionally, all stats the player has would be transferred to the barrier.

[Sukhoi]

Can't you guys just like... go away? You lost already. Your class isn't coming, give up. Teriz fade away like you did when demon hunters were put into the game after you said they never were so the mods can worry about important stuff, not your little tinker circle jerk

[Traveler Voltin]

Teriz hasnt lost. So you can shut up

[Ielenia]

Opinion

It's not opinion. It's fact.

I don't see how a paladin moving out of the range of a big nuke is any different than bringing the barrier down and then bringing it back up a few seconds later.

Except tanks are very rarely supposed to move out of a 'big nuke' attack, but instead use defensive cooldowns to mitigate the damage.

I mean getting double tapped from the boss and the adds and crap from around the boss.

Still, the barrier is STILL an stationary, non-moving target, which means your character's armor, dodge and parry are negated, and the barrier and tank constantly take damage, only getting brief respites when the boss misses its mandatory 5% of the time.

The barrier simply transfers itself to the ranged tank, so you're actually bouncing the barrier from yourself to the targeted location, so the aggro only resets if the actual player dies. Additionally, all stats the player has would be transferred to the barrier.

You are not dumb enough to think that is how things happen. You do know that mechanically the barrier would actually despawn (i.e. literally stop existing in the game) and then respawn (i.e. begin existing again) at the targeted location. And the stop existing/exist again would reset the aggro. Something that doesn't exist cannot hold aggro.

[Kiradyn]

Sure it could!

-Place a device near the boss and the device activates a shield or barrier of some type that generates aggro. The actual ranged tank attacks from a distance, strafing and attacking the boss. Aggro produced by the actual tank will generate from the shield instead.

-The barrier is split between the device and the player. When the boss attacks the barrier, it causes a passive that damages the ranged tank, just at a reduced amount of damage. You can call that ability "Feedback loop" or something. It's the ranged tank's job to keep the barrier up.

- The ranged tank will have abilities to maintain the barrier and their health. If the barrier falls, the tank is in big trouble. The barrier can be disabled and deployed quickly in case you need the boss to move.

It would be a complex method of tanking, but I think it could work.

While that could work, I don't see that working with a mech class. I think a mech-based class would be melee.

If you're not talking about a mech based class, what weapons would this class use? If we're going physical ranged, how would a Tinker class deal with bows?

[Teriz]

It's not opinion. It's fact.

Heh, not even close.

Except tanks are very rarely supposed to move out of a 'big nuke' attack, but instead use defensive cooldowns to mitigate the damage.

Then simply give the player ranged tank a defensive CD that only affects the barrier.

Still, the barrier is STILL an stationary, non-moving target, which means your character's armor, dodge and parry are negated, and the barrier and tank constantly take damage, only getting brief respites when the boss misses its mandatory 5% of the time.

Nah, the barrier would have the armor, dodge, and parry stats of the tanking character. So it would take damage, parry, and dodge just like a tank character would. Further the ranged tank would obviously have tanking CDs of its own in order to mitigate the incoming damage.

You are not dumb enough to think that is how things happen. You do know that mechanically the barrier would actually despawn (i.e. literally stop existing in the game) and then respawn (i.e. begin existing again) at the targeted location. And the stop existing/exist again would reset the aggro. Something that doesn't exist cannot hold aggro.

Like I said, the barrier wouldn't dissipate, it would transfer to the ranged tank, transferring the aggro as well. When it's time to place the barrier down, the aggro is transferred back to wherever the tank decides to place the barrier.

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While that could work, I don't see that working with a mech class. I think a mech-based class would be melee.

I'm inclined to agree. The spec outline you quoted would be for a tech class going full physical ranged. Not for a mech-based class.

If you're not talking about a mech based class, what weapons would this class use? If we're going physical ranged, how would a Tinker class deal with bows?

guns, bows, crossbows. Perhaps this class could have a class-based transmogrification device that turns bows and crossbows into Guns?

[Thimagryn]

Ranged tanking is an arbitrary answer to a (very stupid) loaded question. It doesn't have much more merit than that. Tinker is a melee unit in Warcraft 3 and Heroes of the Storm!