General Holy questions

[doofythepaladin]

I can't post logs yet but I had some general healing questions. I last played in mid Pandaria and got sucked back in a month into Legion and I'm hooked again.

It's always Beacon of Faith in raids, yes? Is there ever a time I want Lightbringer? If using BoF, does it matter which tank gets which Beacon? (Tanks are usually a paladin and a DK, with a Druid backup.)

I really suck at using Bestow Faith properly. Is Light's Hammer ever acceptable?

One of the main tanks is a prot paladin and specs for Judgment of Light. Does this hurt me? (I have the ring so I need to Judge.)

Holy Avenger, Holy Prism or Divine Purpose? I feel like all 3 could be viable.

I think that's all for now, thanks in advance.

[Hawg]

It's always Beacon of Faith in raids, yes? Is there ever a time I want Lightbringer? If using BoF, does it matter which tank gets which Beacon? (Tanks are usually a paladin and a DK, with a Druid backup.)

The short answer is no, sometimes you wan to use BoL over BoF. You can google and get specific answers from people on what they recommend for each fight, but for me it comes down to how spread-out the fight is. If the raid will be compact (like usrsoc) then I will trade the second circle of mastery provided by BoL for the added tank healing provided by BoF. If we are spread out (like nythendra, or most of ToV) then I will use BoL so that most the raid is covered by either my circle of mastery or the beaconed tank's circle.

No it does not matter which tank gets which of your two beacons if you use BoF. They are the same.

I really suck at using Bestow Faith properly. Is Light's Hammer ever acceptable?

Not really that I can think of. Bestow faith's best value IMHO is that you can cast it while on the move. Start doing that and before long you will find yourself using it a lot.

One of the main tanks is a prot paladin and specs for Judgment of Light. Does this hurt me? (I have the ring so I need to Judge.)

Well it doesnt hurt the raid, it may make your healing meters look a bit lower (assuming you don't take the talent too).

Holy Avenger, Holy Prism or Divine Purpose? I feel like all 3 could be viable.

I think that's all for now, thanks in advance.

I don't know anyone who uses Divine Purpose for anything. The other two are both viable and I use both. For 5 man content I use Holy avenger pretty much exclusively since it is a great cd for dpsing as well as burst healing. For raids it's about 50/50, it really comes down to the fight, is it a fight where a little bit of aoe healing pretty much the entire fight (holy prisim) is better than a strong throughput (but mana intensive) cd (holy avenger)? I find xavius to be a great fight for HA since your cd's and mana get reset after the dream.

[pendragyn]

I think Divine Purpose is a great talent for raids and use it all the time. It has great synergy with Crusader's Might. If you can be within melee range of a mob the majority of the time I'd highly recommend it. It will vastly increase the uptime of two of your highest hps/hpm spenders which are holy shock and light of dawn. While it can't compete with a pure Light of Dawn > Holy Shock >Flash of Light sequence for hps, it's mana efficiency blows it out of the water and it's hps is still very competitive. So if you are killing things in under 3 minutes go the highest hps build. You will oom with any longer fights. Otherwise, if you can be in melee the majority of the time, try Divine purpose with Crusader's Might.

P.S. Don't forget Divine Purpose can proc Second Sunrise and vice versa. People often forget this and lose out on the potential of 5x+ Light of Dawn streaks.

[Arayaa]

No it does not matter which tank gets which of your two beacons if you use BoF. They are the same.

This isn't actually true. Beacon of Faith is unable to proc Saved by the Light. Your regular Beacon of Light should always go on the player you think will dip below 50% health more often.

[satanicsuture]

I can't post logs yet but I had some general healing questions. I last played in mid Pandaria and got sucked back in a month into Legion and I'm hooked again.

It's always Beacon of Faith in raids, yes? Is there ever a time I want Lightbringer? If using BoF, does it matter which tank gets which Beacon? (Tanks are usually a paladin and a DK, with a Druid backup.)

I really suck at using Bestow Faith properly. Is Light's Hammer ever acceptable?

One of the main tanks is a prot paladin and specs for Judgment of Light. Does this hurt me? (I have the ring so I need to Judge.)

Holy Avenger, Holy Prism or Divine Purpose? I feel like all 3 could be viable.

I think that's all for now, thanks in advance.

All three beacons are viable. Lightbringer is the most versatile and the one you should use most of the time. Faith excels at even tank damage, like Ursoc and Renferal. Virtue has an amazing throughput that blows both other beacons out of the water. However, Virtue also has an extreme mana cost, and it prefers there to be heavy aoe damage. It makes it the best dungeon talent, but also a very situational raid talent. tldr; Lightbringer > Faith > Virtue in your average raid scenario.

Bestow Faith is the best spell in terms of mana efficiency and healing throughput. However, it requires you to always use it on cooldown. If you don't, LH will be stronger. LH is also a bit of a situational spell because it costs a lot of mana but does great aoe healing and damage when it's used. It's especially strong on Mythic I'lgynoth both inside the eye and when you stack outside (if you use a Spirit Linked shaman). Crusaders might is more for Shockadins, but also for farm content and occasionally Mythic+ content. tldr; BF > LH > CM but both first are acceptable.

You should NEVER specc judgement of light for numerous reasons. A prot pala using it is ofcourse a decent reason, but the fact Sanctified Wrath is so much stronger than JoL is the main one. You should still use judgement when you can to help dps, but also use it before any incoming damage, as it will reduce your damage taken by 10%. tldr, Sanctified Wrath > Don't take judgement nor Martyr.

Lastly, the fun tier. All 3 are viable, however in different scenarios. Holy Avenger is a minicooldown which improves your shock, and it's great in small groups like mythic+ or when strong singletarget is required. Holy Prism is stronger on any aoe scenario and it's also a smart heal (picks the damage targets first). Divine Purpose is weaker than both when it comes to healing, but paired with Crusaders Might in the first row, it's the core of a Shockadin build and does net a decent DPS boost. tldr, in your average raidscenario Holy Prism > Holy Avenger > Divine Purpose

[Nedralixx]

You should NEVER specc judgement of light for numerous reasons. A prot pala using it is ofcourse a decent reason, but the fact Sanctified Wrath is so much stronger than JoL is the main one.

This is blatantly wrong. JoL is stronger than Wrath in fights with aoe dmg.

[Hawg]

This isn't actually true. Beacon of Faith is unable to proc Saved by the Light. Your regular Beacon of Light should always go on the player you think will dip below 50% health more often.

Hmm I hadn't tested that or even thought about it, I guess it makes sense. I'll try to test to confirm. Even if it's true though it's a very small bonus, but worth considering.

[Alextros]

P.S. Don't forget Divine Purpose can proc Second Sunrise and vice versa. People often forget this and lose out on the potential of 5x+ Light of Dawn streaks.

Unless they fixed it, also remember that the CD reset on Light of Dawn will be spent if Second Sunrise procs (Thus you only have a mana free LoD which is on CD), which really bums out the setup

[satanicsuture]

This is blatantly wrong. JoL is stronger than Wrath in fights with aoe dmg.

It's not and never will be. On our last Mythic Il'gynoth, Judgement of Light was around 9m healing. On Nythendra mythic, around 11m. Compare that to Sanctified Wrath and only a total idiot would pick Judgement ahead of Wrath.

The only and absolutely ONLY time JoL would be even viable is even you have no Prot Paladin AND there's not a burst but more a sustained incoming damage to actually make use of the charges, like Nythendra.

Picking JoL ahead of SW is the same logic of picking Mercy ahead of Devo in fights like Ursoc. Instead of preventing damage and increasing survival for the raid, you chose to pad meters with talents that make little difference. For numbercrunchers, JoL hits are around 9k per hit and Mercy as well. Both can crit, both can overheal.

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I have to ask, why not as the tank to switch to another talent then? Consecrated Ground is not bad at all after all.

Consecrated ground is absolutely horrible for raids, JoL generates more passive healing and also doesn't rely on DPS to stand near. CG is ok for dungeons, if you have atleast 2 more melee with you.

Aegis is similar. It's a great cooldown in theory, but the requirement to channel as well as have people behind you to reduce the damage makes it very situational even during the best conditions.

[Alextros]

Yes but if the healer can provide it the tank can switch. It largely depends on which second choice is worse; sanctified wrath or consecrated ground. Whoever will lose less from picking the suboptimal talent should switch. I am not playing Holy though so I don't know. I have to agree that JoL over Sanctified Wrath for Holy sounds like something you pick to pad too.

Also irrelevant to the thread but on dungeons we pick ground for the snare

One of the major differences in JoL for Prot and Holy is the fact that Judgment has a much shorter cooldown and has a baseline function for Prot. Never got play around with JoL as Holy as much as I wanted, but Protection gets alot more from keeping Judgment on cooldown compared to Holy, where we spend a global for JoL only (and ring if we have that but meh, only using Judgment for the occasional Dmg reduction through Hand of Tyr and the healing increase for planned burst sessions (charge on Ursoc, Ambush on Elerethe etc.) The ring is an amazing preplanning tool, but I wouldn't keep Judgment on CD for it

[satanicsuture]

Yes but if the healer can provide it the tank can switch. It largely depends on which second choice is worse; sanctified wrath or consecrated ground. Whoever will lose less from picking the suboptimal talent should switch. I am not playing Holy though so I don't know. I have to agree that JoL over Sanctified Wrath for Holy sounds like something you pick to pad too.

Also irrelevant to the thread but on dungeons we pick ground for the snare

I play all three speccs, from my experience I would never give up SW for anything. The insane strength wings provide with that is enough to make DPS just gasp. Like DTH+10 or above, where the last boss nukes players down to 5% and I simply shock them up to 100% without any issues.

It's correct the CG is mostly for the snare, I was only highlighting the healing aspect during my comparison.

[Gilthresa]

It's not and never will be. On our last Mythic Il'gynoth, Judgement of Light was around 9m healing. On Nythendra mythic, around 11m. Compare that to Sanctified Wrath and only a total idiot would pick Judgement ahead of Wrath.

The only and absolutely ONLY time JoL would be even viable is even you have no Prot Paladin AND there's not a burst but more a sustained incoming damage to actually make use of the charges, like Nythendra.

Picking JoL ahead of SW is the same logic of picking Mercy ahead of Devo in fights like Ursoc. Instead of preventing damage and increasing survival for the raid, you chose to pad meters with talents that make little difference. For numbercrunchers, JoL hits are around 9k per hit and Mercy as well. Both can crit, both can overheal.

You do realise 90% of holy paladins are using JoL right now because it is better right? Not just because they like to pad or w/e you think the reason is.

Also to add to that mythic il'gynoth is literally the only fight in EN where JOL is not the best choice.

[pendragyn]

It's not and never will be. On our last Mythic Il'gynoth, Judgement of Light was around 9m healing. On Nythendra mythic, around 11m. Compare that to Sanctified Wrath and only a total idiot would pick Judgement ahead of Wrath.

The only and absolutely ONLY time JoL would be even viable is even you have no Prot Paladin AND there's not a burst but more a sustained incoming damage to actually make use of the charges, like Nythendra.

Picking JoL ahead of SW is the same logic of picking Mercy ahead of Devo in fights like Ursoc. Instead of preventing damage and increasing survival for the raid, you chose to pad meters with talents that make little difference. For numbercrunchers, JoL hits are around 9k per hit and Mercy as well. Both can crit, both can overheal.

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JoL on my last Mythic Nythendra did 24.3 million healing averaging 18.3k a hit. I do have the legendary ring though.

[Nedralixx]

It's not and never will be. On our last Mythic Il'gynoth, Judgement of Light was around 9m healing. On Nythendra mythic, around 11m. Compare that to Sanctified Wrath and only a total idiot would pick Judgement ahead of Wrath.

Ok, I'll let you do some digging around and find yourself if JoL is better than SW in the MAJORITY of the current raids (not the ones you mentioned) cause the only idiot is you at the moment.

[satanicsuture]

Ok, I'll let you do some digging around and find yourself if JoL is better than SW in the MAJORITY of the current raids (not the ones you mentioned) cause the only idiot is you at the moment.

Yeah you proved yourself as the retard long ago. Go pad your meters and go check the logs of progress raids before you act retarded again.

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You do realise 90% of holy paladins are using JoL right now because it is better right? Not just because they like to pad or w/e you think the reason is.

Also to add to that mythic il'gynoth is literally the only fight in EN where JOL is not the best choice.

Funny how the MAJORITY of Holypaladins progress raiding are using SW and not JoL. In fact, More than 90% of the paladins with a Prot Paladin are using SW and the other paladins using JoL do so because they lack a Prot paladin.

[Nedralixx]

Ok, so next time you're doing sports or something be sure to patch one of your eyes in order not to be blamed for padding the meters. This is hilarious and I could do it for ages but your way of thinking is damaged beyond repair. Go on about spreading misinformation if you so desire but be sure that it will be met with criticism.

[Bling]

Unless they fixed it, also remember that the CD reset on Light of Dawn will be spent if Second Sunrise procs (Thus you only have a mana free LoD which is on CD), which really bums out the setup

They fixed it awhile ago. Divine Purpose is quite powerful now. I've gotten 6-7 LoD procs in a row now, second sunrise procs it too. I've found divine purpose unreplaceable in raids now.

[Alextros]

They fixed it awhile ago. Divine Purpose is quite powerful now. I've gotten 6-7 LoD procs in a row now, second sunrise procs it too. I've found divine purpose unreplaceable in raids now.

Oh okay, haven't played the past month, so atleast they did fix it. Was so annoying when I found out that the two things just counteracted eachother >.<

[Hawg]

I don't understand why JoL would ever be "padding the meters" ... unless you are asking people to take extra damage so you can heal them more, it's not padding the meters, it healing damage that needs to be healed...if not it is going as overhealing (or causing overheals with other spells) -and therefore not counted as hps on the meters (therefore not padding them).

And it goes without saying that if you have a pally tank using it, it's useless.

But even still, in raids that I've done, even heroic with 26man, I have never had jol run out of charges before my next judgement cast, so saying tanks get more out of it because they judge more is bullshit. That being said, I'm not going to ask my tanks to change, if they are using it, I'll use something else, because the raid already has it.

But the short version of this is that jol is a good talent for almost every raid encounter, the raid should have it, either from a holy pally or a prot pally, if you are the only one who can provide it, it's your best choice IMHO.

[satanicsuture]

Ok, so next time you're doing sports or something be sure to patch one of your eyes in order not to be blamed for padding the meters. This is hilarious and I could do it for ages but your way of thinking is damaged beyond repair. Go on about spreading misinformation if you so desire but be sure that it will be met with criticism.

Keep acting dumb, it really helps. Especially when you get called out for it. Next time you go play Icehockey, don't forget to bring your football. That's the same logic you're using.

Every top tier paladin progressing is using SW unless they lack a prot paladin. Go do your homework.

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I don't understand why JoL would ever be "padding the meters" ... unless you are asking people to take extra damage so you can heal them more, it's not padding the meters, it healing damage that needs to be healed...if not it is going as overhealing (or causing overheals with other spells) -and therefore not counted as hps on the meters (therefore not padding them).

And it goes without saying that if you have a pally tank using it, it's useless.

But even still, in raids that I've done, even heroic with 26man, I have never had jol run out of charges before my next judgement cast, so saying tanks get more out of it because they judge more is bullshit. That being said, I'm not going to ask my tanks to change, if they are using it, I'll use something else, because the raid already has it.

But the short version of this is that jol is a good talent for almost every raid encounter, the raid should have it, either from a holy pally or a prot pally, if you are the only one who can provide it, it's your best choice IMHO.

The reason for a Prot paladin getting more out of it is that they can talent Judgement to have several charges while a Holy paladin only has the one with cooldown. Will the charges run out on a singletarget fight? Highly unlikely. Will there be moments when a holy paladin can't judge because the GCD is more valuable spent healing? Yes, numerous times. Will a prot paladin easily refresh it on multiple targets? Yes.

In other words, for Holy to use it, it's a GCD to refresh it that can be used on other things. In progression fights, there tends to be quite a lot of damage going around because people are learning the fight. That GCD is better served elsewhere. For a Prot paladin, they judge all the time anyway, so it's much easier to rely on them refreshing it.

As for padding the meters, (just an example) if someone stands in Volcanic in a mythic+, they will drop to around 50% of their life. If they attack the boss twice, they get a nice 20-40k heal, out of 1m health, followed by a Holy shock that will heal that 1m so they are at 100%. That 20-40k heal served no purpose because you'd heal them up instantly anyway, so all it did was pad the meters a bit. If there are no strong singletarget healers I could see the point for leech type spells, but in this case a Holy paladin will have no issues healing up any target from low to 100%, especially using wings. This will only get more accurate once the 2p is released and we can run a 100% holyshock build without using any cooldowns.

And I agree with your short version. If there's no JoL in the raid, the Holy paladin should specc it, however if there is a Prot paladin then he should be the one using it since SW > JoL.