The gate to get into PvP is now higher than ever in the post Wotlk days

[Deleted]

Seriously ... Really? You think it is hard to gear for pvp? Get golden traits in your artifact, run all WQ that rewards gear to get ilvl up. Stats dosnt matter, only ilvl does. Do arena - lowest rating still reward something like 865.
And don't forget bgs to get your honor talents. 1-2 weeks of casual play should be enough to be "competitive" in serious pvp guilds.

As long as you got the skills that is...

[rda]

Personally I like that the gear normalises in rated PvP, and I'd take it further and make it use templates for world pvp (not sure on if the WoW engine currently could handle that as I have no idea the backend).

The other change I'd make, much to the horror of pure factionists (is that a term?), would be to allow the sides to mix. Have random BGs fill both sides with any race/faction. And why? Well, they're never going to balance the two factions, and tbh it's not fun on either side when you have a battlegroup that just stomps the other. Getting stomped in 90% of the bgs itself isn't fun, and playing the other side... it just feels so hollow.

BTW, the second thing you are talking about - mixing factions in BGs - is perhaps inevitable. If they do solo queue - and they should, because that's the single biggest thing that can revitalize PVP (obviously, they have to work on balance and gearing, too, but I am talking after that, when they get these things in shape) - it is absolutely required that solo queue remains solo, that groups can't queue to play together, neither by waiting until they all get the "join?" dialog and pressing OK at the same time, nor by any other means. And the best way to do that is mix groups at the start. Ie, go ahead, queue as a party, sure, fine. We'll mix you up so that half of you is on one side and half on the other, so half of you are going to lose no matter what (and so it doesn't really make sense to queue as a party for rating, you don't improve your chances at a win).

So, we'll perhaps have that. (If they get around to actually moving PVP forward instead of just keeping it afloat in the next few years.)

[Sencha]

Replace "fresh starter" with "a guy who just got honor gear" (which takes no time) and the whole point reverts - the gap is worse instead of better.

Plus, actually, with artifact power, I am not sure even the initial point is correct. What was the power difference between a fresh guy in quest greens and full conquest before? Quest greens were scaling up, I remind you, although to the level lower than honor. So, what are we talking about - 30%? 40%? The difference in gear in Legion would cover about 10% of that and, frankly, the difference in artifact will certainly cover at least 15-20%, and I didn't yet count honor talents, so that might actually be a tie.

Right, it was pretty easy to get honor gear in WoD so you could close the gap faster. The gap is less about gear in Legion but has now been replaced with AP and pvp talents.

Pvp talents can be obtained pretty fast by just doing pvp, so the real problem is about AP. Honestly they should just have removed artifact bonus from pvp OR grant more AP from pvp activities so that people do not feel forced to do those boring world quests.

[Deleted]

Is that how Blizzard see it? Perhaps they are talking about someone who has been playing for years but never actually tried PvP, and would therefore have a good amount of AP.

That's probably exactly how blizzard sees it.

[Osmeric]

That's probably exactly how blizzard sees it.

Of course, if someone has been playing for years and hasn't tried PvP, there's probably a good reason for that. It's not a case of "oh gosh, I never noticed this game has PvP!", rather it's that that player considers PvP unfun or unrewarding. Removing casual rewards from PvP wasn't the way to go to attract those players.

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Right, it was pretty easy to get honor gear in WoD so you could close the gap faster. The gap is less about gear in Legion but has now been replaced with AP and pvp talents.

Pvp talents can be obtained pretty fast by just doing pvp, so the real problem is about AP. Honestly they should just have removed artifact bonus from pvp OR grant more AP from pvp activities so that people do not feel forced to do those boring world quests.

I can tell you why I have done almost no PvP in Legion: because I get nothing out of it.

[Fkiolaris]

I can tell you why I have done almost no PvP in Legion: because I get nothing out of it.

Same for me, plus the gameplay is absolutely boring with the pruning, which is funny because it removes (for me at least) the main argument of the apologists: "do pvp for the sake of pvp". Well, unrewarding AND boring just doesn't cut it, sorry guys.

[Resentless]

Spot on. It's not about how someone who just dinged a minute ago fairs against someone fully geared, it's about how long it takes to catch up to equal playing field. There's a ginormous difference between now and Wod in that compartment. There's just no denying that.


Refer to what I said above. I'm not sure where you got that 1-5%, when the final artifact trait alone is 5% extra damage. That's not counting the passive damage you get from the 35 artifact traits before that or the stats from gear.

But yeah, if you wish to contribute. What do you think is the reason for the low pvp participation rate in Legion, if there is no barrier to enter pvp and the system, carrots included, is better now than it was in the past? Do you think that my whining or me being dense is what's keeping people from pvp'ing?

What the fuck? The thread title you created is "the gate TO GET INTO PVP" and the gate is lower, everyone has just proved that. EQUAL PLAYING FIELD and "gate to get into" are very different things. It IS entirely about how a newly dinged player fares, if they didnt fare well at all then the gate is high, if they do pretty good, the gate is low. Thats what a fucking gate is, the entry level test.

edit: also, the 5% damage/healing artifact trait doesnt work in pvp. You really think they'd talk about lowering the barrier to entry and then allow that talent to work? nice.

- - - Updated - - -

But even that gets mitigated by the shfiting iLevel. Its win-win-win.

That system (from WoD) worked great. Why they threw it in the trash is a mystery.

- - - Updated - - -

ITT: people who cant do simple math and rely on "feels".



You're factually wrong. It's been proven already, with math.

The flaw in everyone's reasoning is that the "old system" was constant. It wasn't. Wether the quality of the PvP in WoD was good (i dont think it was particularly great, from a balance perspective) - the gearing and reward system in WoD was the best system the game ever had.

Everyone tries to posit the system in WoD as a "fresh 100 in questing greens trying to gear in BGs and getting roflstomped because people have 50% more stats than he does".

The problem is.... that wasnt the system as presented in WoD, unless you were just not paying attention. There were MULTIPLE ways to gear your character for basic PvP in a matter of HOURS. In WoD, the measurement for "viable for PvP" was Honor gear, which was obtainable within six hours of NOT EVEN PvPing..

The stat difference between someone in full Honor Gear vs someone in full Conquest gear? 9.4%. It was also unlikely to be that high - as by doing Ashran or sending your alts Medallions, you would almost always get 2-4 pieces of CQ gear during your six-eight hour "gearing up" process. Your actual stat difference was far more likely to be between 6-7%.

And that was it. That was the barrier of entry for PvP in WoD. Six hours. Maybe eight, if you were slow or got into a "good" Ashran where you could actually roll with the team and win CQ. (but in that case, you'd also end up with better gear).

Six hours.

Now lets examine the current barrier:

You hit 110.

1 - You can enter PvP, where you're likely to be about 5-7% behind on stats. Just about the same as before.
2 - You have to grind your honor talents for days. People saying "but the first rank is easy to unlock!" (which is true) need to just shut the hell up, as about half the classes REQUIRE the third row to be completely unlocked to even be VIABLE. To get them all - several days of playing a LOT of BGs and doing the WQs (particularly since the nerf to towers only spawning once a day). And that's if you make yourself do the absolute shit-show of the "FFA" zones.
3 - you have to grind your Artifact for WEEKS. This will be allieviated soon in 7.1.5 if you already have AK 25 on your main - but that's hardly relevant at this point. Again, some classes/specs REQUIRE 25+ ranks to even be remotely viable and some are totally viable with less than 10.



This is a not possible. If you hit 110 a week ago, you have AK4 at most. At AK4, you did not grind almost 1.2 million AP on items that gave you 1-2k... or if you did, then that is hardly a low gate.

So lets examine:

WoD: six to eight hour "barrier of entry" that didn't even actually require you to PvP. You could also eventually, through any form of PvP catch up and have NO stat difference between you and the people at the top. Casual, Rated, Ashran, whatever floated your boat. Some forms were slower than others, but you could do it however you liked.

Legion: "Barrier of entry" is dozens of hours of grinding honor talents, weeks of gated AP gains, and you still end up with a stat delta the same as WoD.... which you can never overcome through PvP alone unless you manage to get to the top 15% of rated players.

It's simple math, people.

Anyone who thinks the barrier of entry for PvP is lower right now than it was in WoD isnt capable of doing 4th grade math.

1. Shifting ilvl feels disgusting. Never like the idea that my gear is good in one place and bad in the other, then I need 2 sets of gear. Not anymore.
2.
>"Hey look at my math man everything is proven by MATH and FACTS"
>doesn't show any math
saying "likely" to be 6-7% and "almost always" are not FACTUAL MATHEMATICAL terms, so dont say people "cant do 4th grade math" while not actually providing any yourself. Unlike in Legion, where they have literally said 10 ilvls = 1% difference.
3. Excuse me? "Eventually catch up to people at the top through small unrated pvp". No one is talking about that firstly, we are talking about the barrier to entry. But since you are deciding to talk about that, lets see: you say it takes 6-8 hours to be "viable" for pvp. Firstly, in my experience that makes me viable up to 1700, where at this point it becomes impossible to climb in honor gear. That 6-8 hour grind is what it takes to unlock your first 2 rows of honor talents, still only being at the ABSOLUTE WORST (800 ilvl at max level, which is nearly impossible considering the 820/830/840 and now 855 gear you get from random bgs/lockboxes and 10 wins in 2s) of 8% difference to an 880 geared player, the highest as of last week. So, using your "super duper math", 9.4% difference between an honor and conquest geared player, already after 6-8 hours of grinding for said gear, followed by even more grinding to even out that 9.4% difference and actually reach your "even playing field" is already far longer and far more painful than the pvp honor talents in which you are only at the WORST 8% difference in power. Only artifact power could possibly be comparable, and you saying it takes "WEEKS" to get to lets say 34 traits (which in itself isnt necessary as the 5% trait at 35 doesnt work in pvp, and the 12 traits from my 3rd golden to 34 were absolutely useless for pvp) is an abhorrently false statement. As the poster you quoted said, it did indeed only take 1 week (or in my experience 4 days) of grinding AP at 110 to unlock the 2nd artifact trait, and the other came in just over another week since i was getting AK every day with the speed boost for people who are a bit behind.

So 2 weeks to get all the legion specific grinding out the way (as i said, the 23-34 traits are useless for most people, you only need the 3rd golden and youre set). At which point you WILL be at 855 ilvl minimum, which is 2.5% difference to a max geared player (lol), and you only need 1 set of gear that you can achieve through any variation of content.

The MoP and WoD systems sucked ass, i never wanted to play an alt knowing i had to spend at least 2 weeks of my time grinding bgs and getting stomped on just to get into an arena to be stomped on some more till i was in at least 50% conquest gear, which still wasnt enough to even try and compete at the top ratings in arena. Now i can do mythic+, raids, heroics, bgs, skirmishes, rated bgs whatever doesnt even matter, I will reach my artifact trait and be done with it FOR THE ENTIRE EXPANSION. Unlike needing to get a new set of conquest gear each season. The "MATTER OF HOURS" I would have spent gearing for BASIC PVP I now spent ACTUALLY DOING PVP and raising the ilvl of my gear for next weeks arena/rbgs by 20, narrowing my gap in 1 week by 2%, to the point where its a 1% difference in stats. If you are noticing that, then pvp might not be for you.

[Kagthul]

1. Shifting ilvl feels disgusting. Never like the idea that my gear is good in one place and bad in the other, then I need 2 sets of gear. Not anymore.

Except you still do, because gear you get from PvP is near worthless in PvE, as it ALWAYS has Versatility as a secondary which is a prime stat for literally no specs.

2.
>"Hey look at my math man everything is proven by MATH and FACTS"
>doesn't show any math

The math has been done in the other 30 threads on this topic. Im not going to hold your hand here. You can go read them, or you can continue to look like an absolute moron.

saying "likely" to be 6-7% and "almost always" are not FACTUAL MATHEMATICAL terms, so dont say people "cant do 4th grade math" while not actually providing any yourself. Unlike in Legion, where they have literally said 10 ilvls = 1% difference.
3. Excuse me? "Eventually catch up to people at the top through small unrated pvp". No one is talking about that firstly, we are talking about the barrier to entry. But since you are deciding to talk about that, lets see: you say it takes 6-8 hours to be "viable" for pvp. Firstly, in my experience that makes me viable up to 1700,

Anecdotal experience supported by literally nothing, as there are just as many people who got to 2K+ in honor blues.

where at this point it becomes impossible to climb in honor gear. That 6-8 hour grind is what it takes to unlock your first 2 rows of honor talents, still only being at the ABSOLUTE WORST

This is ... so horribly wrong it makes my brain bleed. Unless you're getting back to back to back WSG wins in 3 minutes, you're not getting the first two rows of Honor talents in six hours. None of the BGs have honor gains/hour anywhere near that. Keep lying to yourself though.

(800 ilvl at max level, which is nearly impossible considering the 820/830/840 and now 855 gear you get from random bgs/lockboxes and 10 wins in 2s) of 8% difference to an 880 geared player, the highest as of last week.

Uh.. wat? There are plenty of people on the ladder bigger than 880. And lets not forget - you can ONLY get this gear if you are on the ladder. Casual? Fuck you.

So, using your "super duper math", 9.4% difference between an honor and conquest geared player, already after 6-8 hours of grinding for said gear, followed by even more grinding to even out that 9.4% difference and actually reach your "even playing field" is already far longer and far more painful than the pvp honor talents in which you are only at the WORST 8% difference in power.

Single talents on that tree are more than 8% power delta, particularly for some classes. Affliction Warlock, for instance.

Only artifact power could possibly be comparable, and you saying it takes "WEEKS" to get to lets say 34 traits (which in itself isnt necessary as the 5% trait at 35 doesnt work in pvp, and the 12 traits from my 3rd golden to 34 were absolutely useless for pvp) is an abhorrently false statement. As the poster you quoted said, it did indeed only take 1 week (or in my experience 4 days) of grinding AP at 110 to unlock the 2nd artifact trait, and the other came in just over another week since i was getting AK every day with the speed boost for people who are a bit behind.

That isnt what he said - he said he was at 24 traits. Thats almost 1.2 million AP. With AK4 (the most he could have on a fresh 110 within a week, and only if it was an alt that was far behind his main, reducing AK gains to 2 day sinstead of 5) that would take a hundred or more hours of grinding AP as most items are worth less than 3k. Hardly a "low barrier" of entry. Oh, and it's all PvE, to boot.

Math hard.

So 2 weeks to get all the legion specific grinding out the way (as i said, the 23-34 traits are useless for most people, you only need the 3rd golden and youre set). At which point you WILL be at 855 ilvl minimum, which is 2.5% difference to a max geared player (lol), and you only need 1 set of gear that you can achieve through any variation of content.

Except you will be told by any remotely competent guild to get that PvP gear off and get real gear because its all Vers/stat. Unless you're a Blood DK, Vers is pretty much universally garbage, and even BDK only wants about 10% DR from Vers.

I also find it odd that you think an extra 10-15% stamina is useless (or did we forget that Traits give you .75% stamina per rank until 34, and that yes, this DOES apply in PvP?). Thats worse than being in freebie PvP greens in WoD.

The MoP and WoD systems sucked ass, i never wanted to play an alt knowing i had to spend at least 2 weeks of my time grinding bgs and getting stomped on just to get into an arena to be stomped on some more

Thankfully, you didn't have to do any of that.

till i was in at least 50% conquest gear, which still wasnt enough to even try and compete at the top ratings in arena.

... So you're telling people that the 4-ish % they are (on average) behind now is no big deal.... but being less than 4% "wasnt enough to even try to compete at the top ratings in Arena"? Half conquest gear would have put you at about 3.5% behind. Math. Hard.

Which is it, kiddo? Can't have it both ways.

Now i can do mythic+, raids, heroics, bgs, skirmishes, rated bgs whatever doesnt even matter, I will reach my artifact trait and be done with it FOR THE ENTIRE EXPANSION.

Didnt keep up that they are adding more traits in 7.2, and then again most likely in 7.3? D'oh.

Also... you're just proving my point. Now the most optimal way to gear for PvP, ESPECIALLY if you dont like rated PvP ...

Is to PvE. You really dont see the problem with that? Those are some spectacular blinders.

Unlike needing to get a new set of conquest gear each season.

Youll still need to do that. The iLevel cap (and bonus) is going to go up every time PvE iLevel cap goes up. When Nighthold drops, PvP gear will scale to the top of Nighthold Mythic Warforged.

The "MATTER OF HOURS" I would have spent gearing for BASIC PVP I now spent ACTUALLY DOING PVP and raising the ilvl of my gear for next weeks arena/rbgs by 20, narrowing my gap in 1 week by 2%, to the point where its a 1% difference in stats. If you are noticing that, then pvp might not be for you.

You will not narrow the gap to 1% in stats. YOu cant even get gear that high without being rated above 2k.

Best you can get from Randos is 840. Average person the ladder above 2k is rocking about 885 right now, according to ArenaMate.

That's still a 4.5% stat difference, base.... + somewhere between 8-15% more stamina on top of that (acually, that is calculated first, then the iLevel bonus is calculated on top of it. Compounding percentages FTL) from traits.

Math.

So hard.

Ill sum it up again, since you dont seem to get it:

WoD:
- Six hours of not even PvPing to be completely Honor geared + potentially 2-4 pieces of CQ gear.

Legion:
- NO ability to catch up on gear until you start doing high-level PvE or somehow get into high ratings.
- 30+ hours (maybe later today ill do the actual math on average Honor gains/hour in BGs and see what the quickest gains are) of grinding honor talents to be even remotely viable.
- Artifact grind of weeks (which will be alieviated for ALTS in 7.1.5) to be remotely viable, and even with the catch up mechanics, youll still be several weeks behind on traits, which are extremely important because of Stamina gains.

Six hours Vs Weeks.

Huh.

[Osmeric]

Except you still do, because gear you get from PvP is near worthless in PvE, as it ALWAYS has Versatility as a secondary which is a prime stat for literally no specs.

It's the best secondary stat (well, tied with Crit, but it gives damage reduction too so it's preferable) for ret paladins once they're above the soft haste cap (~22%).

[woopytywoop]

Personally I think casual pvp became more boring than ever.

I think this mostly has to do with the relative higher damage and skill pruning. There are just fewer tools to respond and you just have to bend over and loose +50% hp. I play elemental with only defensive a 8s 40% damage reduction on 1.5min cd which has to be used preemptively.

eg. yesterday I lost 70% of my hp in a HoJ by 1 pala not even popping cd's after his skillful autobubble procced. or a monk sticking like glue to you with his serenity+2xFoF and god forbid you live because you still need to eat another 8s karma. surviving a dk mostly has to do with him not being braindead and using his root that doesn't break on damage after grip. dh throwing glaive>rush>meta and lost 50% of hp 1st gcd after he connects to you. there are plenty of more examples but it became just so boring.

Most of the times you don't feel you outplay people or get outplayed, but rather outclass or get outclassed. I blame the big focus on 3v3 esport aspirations so games have to be fast with synergy and teamplay being the most deciding factor who wins. however, the more casual experience in random bg's etc sucks donkey balls, hence I play them a lot less than I used to.

[Pvp guy]

Versatility is a excellent stat for ww monk btw.

And kagthul, much like someone you're replying to regarding grinding out honor talents in 6-8 hours is exaggerating, you are as well with 6-8 hours of ashran yielding as much as you claim. A vast majority of people had issues with ashran and finding winning groups or not being able to even complete the gear yielding objectives on certain days of the week. Artifact farming in there was only really viable for stealth classes. I agree though that if one got into a good group you could steamroll along pretty quickly. And much like many complain they don't like having to do anything that's not random bgs to get the best gear (wq's or pve) many people hated ashran and resented the fact Blizz forced people in there. Personally I'd rather do a 5 minute wq to cheese a piece of gear than ashran, but that's just me since I find it faster.

You raise valid points, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Maybe try not being such a condescending dick kiddo

[Deleted]

The biggest problem is there is almost no incentive to do casual PvP. It's not that people can't walk in, it's that they have almost no reason to walk in.

We already know what happens to PvP when rewards are removed for many players. Look at the first PvP season in Wrath.

Wait, what rewards were there ever in casual pvp?

[Osmeric]

Wait, what rewards were there ever in casual pvp?

PvP was a source of gear for casual players to use in PvE.

Honor gear was the easiest way to do the initial gear-up for alts, especially for solo players.

Conquest gear was better than LFR gear.

[Xar226]

Not that it matters much at 1300 rating, but are you really going to claim that you can reach something like 2k with your freshly dinged character as easily now as you did in Wod?

So hang on, the "gating" now is that you can't get to a very high PVP rating in questing greens and no artifact power?

Look, AP does matter to the extent that getting three golds matters. That will be very much fixed in 7.1.5 for anybody with a main who has decent AK, and if you don't, I don't feel much sympathy for the fact that you have to actually play the game on one toon first. (And not even really "play." You just need enough order resources to toss your research and to check a damn phone app every few days.)

The rest is overblown. The gear difference is not that big, and while Honor Talents are important you can get a very good set of them (ie, the first column) very quickly if you are actually interested in PVP. Once you have that, the difference is once again overblown. Yes, there is a difference. No, it's not that big.

And even if you can't get to 2k before you get three golds or a first column of talents, you're making constant progress on both as you work to it. You would literally need to go out of your way to not select talents and not put in artifact power before you go to the point where you could say "nope, this is as far as I can go without it."

TL;DR: AP is the only real gate to doing very well in PVP and a fix is already coming for most players.

[Kagthul]

And kagthul, much like someone you're replying to regarding grinding out honor talents in 6-8 hours is exaggerating, you are as well with 6-8 hours of ashran yielding as much as you claim.

No, im not. There rest of your post shows the disconnect: YOu're talking about winning groups, this that or the other thing. I'm talking about riding around the island picking up artifact fragments. You literally never have to fight another player or even a mob if you dont want to (though not fighting some of the mobs makes it less efficient). One pass around the island took about ~10 minutes and would cap you at 1000 artifact fragments. That was 3000 honor. You'd generally have to wait a bit for a full respawn, but you could make roughly 3 passes/hour if no one else was grabbing them, or about 2 if you were competing (as they respawned faster but you were also competing).

I assume 2 passes per hour, 2000 fragments, and 6000 honor. 6 hours is actually more than required, and a number i use as a "you will often be competing" average - you could do it in 4 if you were in an empty ashran or no one else was grabbing fragments. A full set of gear was 27,000 honor.

Math. Hard.

A vast majority of people had issues with ashran and finding winning groups or not being able to even complete the gear yielding objectives on certain days of the week. Artifact farming in there was only really viable for stealth classes.

Lolwut? I have NO stealth classes. 5 toons at 100 at the time and i geared all of them in Ashran in less than six hours (each). All it requires is a mount and knowledge of the treasure locations which you can get in a four minutes Youtube video.

I agree though that if one got into a good group you could steamroll along pretty quickly. And much like many complain they don't like having to do anything that's not random bgs to get the best gear (wq's or pve) many people hated ashran and resented the fact Blizz forced people in there. Personally I'd rather do a 5 minute wq to cheese a piece of gear than ashran, but that's just me since I find it faster.

You raise valid points, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Maybe try not being such a condescending dick kiddo

Son, i'd be willing to bet real money ive got 15+ years on you. Im not concerned with catching flies, im concerned with debunking morons who are spreading bullshit.

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Wait, what rewards were there ever in casual pvp?

Osmeric mostly answers you here:

PvP was a source of gear for casual players to use in PvE.

Honor gear was the easiest way to do the initial gear-up for alts, especially for solo players.

Conquest gear was better than LFR gear.

But ill elabroate.

What rewards were there in casual PvP?

the exact same rewards as rated PvP, just slower.

I geared 3 toons every season to full CQ on nothing but Random BG 1st win and one random BG win per day, and the occasional CQ gain in Ashran (from killing the warlock or mage, and the 200 CQ for kills quest). I didnt even bother with the objective quest 99% of the time.

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So hang on, the "gating" now is that you can't get to a very high PVP rating in questing greens and no artifact power?

Look, AP does matter to the extent that getting three golds matters. That will be very much fixed in 7.1.5 for anybody with a main who has decent AK, and if you don't, I don't feel much sympathy for the fact that you have to actually play the game on one toon first. (And not even really "play." You just need enough order resources to toss your research and to check a damn phone app every few days.)


The rest is overblown.

Not really, but thanks for playing.

The gear difference is not that big,

I never said it was that big, i said it wasn't an improvement over previous expansions, which is completely true. Its somewhere between 1-10%... exactly like before. It hasn't changed, and the number of people who dont realize that is staggering.

and while Honor Talents are important you can get a very good set of them (ie, the first column)

If you're one of a very few specs. FOr every spec where the first column is a "very good set" of Honor Talents, there is a spec where you arent even viable until you have the entire third column unlocked.

very quickly if you are actually interested in PVP.

Sure, but it isn't any faster than just getting Honor gear before.

Once you have that, the difference is once again overblown. Yes, there is a difference. No, it's not that big.

Its pretty damn huge, actually. The "gear" gap is even bigger than before because of Stam gains from Traits. But hey, math is tough i guess.

And even if you can't get to 2k before you get three golds or a first column of talents, you're making constant progress on both as you work to it. You would literally need to go out of your way to not select talents and not put in artifact power before you go to the point where you could say "nope, this is as far as I can go without it."

TL;DR: AP is the only real gate to doing very well in PVP and a fix is already coming for most players.

if you get to "3 golds" (which was not the prior claim - the prior claim was you only needed MAYBE two gold traits to be totally viable) - you still have 11-13 traits missing. Thats roughly 9% less stam. That's a pretty big damn deal.

If we're going to stick with the "2 golds makes you viable kek" idiocy spouted earlier - you're close to 14% less stam (before your iLevel flat stat bonus is applied, too).

Thats a huge freaking deal - worse than the difference between Honor and CQ, all on its own.

Even if all of these things didn't require giant time sinks (they do, but lets say they dont), there's still no way that its not a higher barrier of entry than WoD.

6 Hours < Honor Talents Grind + AP Grind + Gear Grind.

Period.

[Pvp guy]

Well kag, since you don't want to be diplomatic about this then we'll drop it. Truth is, nobody gives a fuck what a guy who does 2 random bgs a day wants. Not even Blizz apparently. This is the new system, take it or leave it. The fact you'd spend so many hours in trashcan avoiding PvP and collecting frags, sounds like wq's should be right up your alley. You prefer to do pve objectives in a so called PvP zone, I prefer to spend 6-8 hours in arena or RBGs actually PvPing.

Btw, looks like you're wasting those 15+ years too skippy. You should be more worried about your career, family, kids, current world affairs instead of PvP vendors not being in wow anymore. Get over it

[Resentless]

Except you still do, because gear you get from PvP is near worthless in PvE, as it ALWAYS has Versatility as a secondary which is a prime stat for literally no specs.



The math has been done in the other 30 threads on this topic. Im not going to hold your hand here. You can go read them, or you can continue to look like an absolute moron.



Anecdotal experience supported by literally nothing, as there are just as many people who got to 2K+ in honor blues.



This is ... so horribly wrong it makes my brain bleed. Unless you're getting back to back to back WSG wins in 3 minutes, you're not getting the first two rows of Honor talents in six hours. None of the BGs have honor gains/hour anywhere near that. Keep lying to yourself though.



Uh.. wat? There are plenty of people on the ladder bigger than 880. And lets not forget - you can ONLY get this gear if you are on the ladder. Casual? Fuck you.



Single talents on that tree are more than 8% power delta, particularly for some classes. Affliction Warlock, for instance.



That isnt what he said - he said he was at 24 traits. Thats almost 1.2 million AP. With AK4 (the most he could have on a fresh 110 within a week, and only if it was an alt that was far behind his main, reducing AK gains to 2 day sinstead of 5) that would take a hundred or more hours of grinding AP as most items are worth less than 3k. Hardly a "low barrier" of entry. Oh, and it's all PvE, to boot.

Math hard.



Except you will be told by any remotely competent guild to get that PvP gear off and get real gear because its all Vers/stat. Unless you're a Blood DK, Vers is pretty much universally garbage, and even BDK only wants about 10% DR from Vers.

I also find it odd that you think an extra 10-15% stamina is useless (or did we forget that Traits give you .75% stamina per rank until 34, and that yes, this DOES apply in PvP?). Thats worse than being in freebie PvP greens in WoD.



Thankfully, you didn't have to do any of that.



... So you're telling people that the 4-ish % they are (on average) behind now is no big deal.... but being less than 4% "wasnt enough to even try to compete at the top ratings in Arena"? Half conquest gear would have put you at about 3.5% behind. Math. Hard.

Which is it, kiddo? Can't have it both ways.



Didnt keep up that they are adding more traits in 7.2, and then again most likely in 7.3? D'oh.

Also... you're just proving my point. Now the most optimal way to gear for PvP, ESPECIALLY if you dont like rated PvP ...

Is to PvE. You really dont see the problem with that? Those are some spectacular blinders.



Youll still need to do that. The iLevel cap (and bonus) is going to go up every time PvE iLevel cap goes up. When Nighthold drops, PvP gear will scale to the top of Nighthold Mythic Warforged.



You will not narrow the gap to 1% in stats. YOu cant even get gear that high without being rated above 2k.

Best you can get from Randos is 840. Average person the ladder above 2k is rocking about 885 right now, according to ArenaMate.

That's still a 4.5% stat difference, base.... + somewhere between 8-15% more stamina on top of that (acually, that is calculated first, then the iLevel bonus is calculated on top of it. Compounding percentages FTL) from traits.

Math.

So hard.

Ill sum it up again, since you dont seem to get it:

WoD:
- Six hours of not even PvPing to be completely Honor geared + potentially 2-4 pieces of CQ gear.

Legion:
- NO ability to catch up on gear until you start doing high-level PvE or somehow get into high ratings.
- 30+ hours (maybe later today ill do the actual math on average Honor gains/hour in BGs and see what the quickest gains are) of grinding honor talents to be even remotely viable.
- Artifact grind of weeks (which will be alieviated for ALTS in 7.1.5) to be remotely viable, and even with the catch up mechanics, youll still be several weeks behind on traits, which are extremely important because of Stamina gains.

Six hours Vs Weeks.

Huh.

Nice, keep insulting bro, it makes you look real cool on the internet. STILL failing to provide any evidence of that "math" for how far you were behind, telling me to go to another thread doesnt make your claim valid, it makes you look like youre talking out your arse. Oh and versatility is my 2nd best stat as a DH? same goes for rets... and priests... and plenty of others. Telling me im using anecdotal evidence and then saying shit about what guilds will take you, when all you need is 2 legendaries, god trinkets and a decent ilvl for any HC+ progression guild. Find me one that says you cant wear pvp gear. I dare you.

Lmao, plenty of cases of people going to 2k with honor gear, yeah being carried by people with full conquest maybe. get a TEAM of honor geared players and see how that goes.

Also you seem to have a major issue with mixing up two different problems here: being on an EVEN playing field with everyone having the same stats, and the entryway to pvp. Both are different, both mean different things. Maybe the even playing field is harder to reach nowadays, but the gate is most certainly not as high as it has been in WoD and MoP and even Cata. Since the thread is asking about the gate to get into pvp, i'll leave it at that.

Oh and telling casuals to fuck off when its casuals who will have a problem with gearing up in the first place. Said it was a pain to gear an alt, not that it couldn't be done. Much easier in legion because gear means so little, and honor talents are a once over. "Period."

[Kagthul]

Well kag, since you don't want to be diplomatic about this then we'll drop it. Truth is, nobody gives a fuck what a guy who does 2 random bgs a day wants. Not even Blizz apparently. This is the new system, take it or leave it.

I have left it, thanks. So have so many others that the ladder is literally dying. That's the problem.

The fact you'd spend so many hours in trashcan avoiding PvP and collecting frags, sounds like wq's should be right up your alley. You prefer to do pve objectives in a so called PvP zone, I prefer to spend 6-8 hours in arena or RBGs actually PvPing.

Ahh, a deathmatch killhero. How utterly fucking predictable. PvP != only killing other players. As to spending "so many hours" avoiding PvP (not that you have to) - its a paltry amount of time to get gear and be viable without having to get your teeth kicked in - you know, the supposed "barrier of entry".

Btw, looks like you're wasting those 15+ years too skippy. You should be more worried about your career,

Self employed, house paid off, working on buying land in Hawaii for my retirement house. How about you?

family, kids,

My son does great in school, my wife has a great job she loves, and ill be retired and living in Hawaii by age 55 at the outside - free and clear with no debt and no mortgage. Think i've got it covered.

current world affairs

Voted, did what i could, and i keep up on world affairs just fine.

instead of PvP vendors not being in wow anymore. Get over it

More fool you for thinking im invested in this at all. Im debunking your arguments (if they can be called that) because theyre utter, unmitigated bullshit and provably untrue. Im not invested in the current PvP system at all. I have limited play time. In a game about gear progression, ill do the activity that rewards me the best. Which isn't PvP.

And the vast majority of the players are like me. Which is why the ladder is 67% smaller in 3s than it was in the last season of WoD and randoms are all but dead and queue times are skyrocketing.

If you could look at anything outside your own stunted worldview, you might see how the current system is literally killing PvP.

Nice, keep insulting bro, it makes you look real cool on the internet. STILL failing to provide any evidence of that "math" for how far you were behind,

I laid out the math and the percentages. Your inability to read isnt my problem.

telling me to go to another thread doesnt make your claim valid, it makes you look like youre talking out your arse.

10 seconds to search for my name to find the posts. What it does is save me time having to retype stuff for idiots. If you're truly interested in the topic, it might behoove you to educate yourself. Im not your daddy. This topic has been discussed to death before, Mr. 25 posts.

Oh and versatility is my 2nd best stat as a DH? same goes for rets... and priests... and plenty of others. Telling me im using anecdotal evidence and then saying shit about what guilds will take you, when all you need is 2 legendaries, god trinkets and a decent ilvl for any HC+ progression guild. Find me one that says you cant wear pvp gear. I dare you.

The Enclave (7/7M, Alliance), Alliance Vanguard (7/7M, Alliance), and all four of the 7/7 Mythic horde guilds on Bleeding Hollow US, just for starters. You're welcome to log in and ask them.

Lmao, plenty of cases of people going to 2k with honor gear, yeah being carried by people with full conquest maybe. get a TEAM of honor geared players and see how that goes.

You cant have it both ways. You said the current gear gap is totally surmountable. The current gear gap is as big or bigger than the old one.

Also you seem to have a major issue with mixing up two different problems here: being on an EVEN playing field with everyone having the same stats, and the entryway to pvp. Both are different, both mean different things. Maybe the even playing field is harder to reach nowadays, but the gate is most certainly not as high as it has been in WoD and MoP and even Cata. Since the thread is asking about the gate to get into pvp, i'll leave it at that.

No, i debunked BOTH topics at the same time, since i knew you were going to go for the second one after you got blown out on the first, but well leave it at this:

Can you:
Get full Honor Talents (not the first column, all of them)
Get the equivalent of Honor gear (~840)
Get 34 Traits in your artifact (hell, even 15 traits?)
All within six hours, without PvPing/being farmed?

No?

Then your entire argument is so much bullshit. The stamina difference from traits alone is bigger than any gear discrepancy since Vanilla.

Oh and telling casuals to fuck off

Im a casual. I wasn't telling anyone to fuck off, but since your reading comprehension isn't worth writing home about, ill explain: I was exposing Blizzard's bullshit. If you're a casual, you get absolutely fuck all for PvP. That's Blizzard's attitude. Casual? Fuck you. And the players have figured it out.... as evidenced by the ladder imploding and casuals not even bothering to queue for randoms.

when its casuals who will have a problem with gearing up in the first place. Said it was a pain to gear an alt, not that it couldn't be done. Much easier in legion because gear means so little, and honor talents are a once over. "Period."

Except, it isnt. You complain about the (9.4%) difference in WoD, but just write off a 20+% stamina difference in Legion like its no big whoop.

Simple fact:

It isn't easier to get into PvP and be basic-viable than in WoD. All it took in WoD was six hours (or less). Now it takes days to weeks. That simple.

[Caolela]

Well kag, since you don't want to be diplomatic about this then we'll drop it. Truth is, nobody gives a fuck what a guy who does 2 random bgs a day wants. Not even Blizz apparently. This is the new system, take it or leave it. The fact you'd spend so many hours in trashcan avoiding PvP and collecting frags, sounds like wq's should be right up your alley. You prefer to do pve objectives in a so called PvP zone, I prefer to spend 6-8 hours in arena or RBGs actually PvPing.

Btw, looks like you're wasting those 15+ years too skippy. You should be more worried about your career, family, kids, current world affairs instead of PvP vendors not being in wow anymore. Get over it

To quote a much-despised, arrogant douchebag dev (Jay Wilson) who was brought over from D3 to wipe his ass on WoW, and when finished, he grabbed the loot he made at Blizz and "retired" at what, 42?:

"Shut up PvP guy."

Both you and Resentless have been given the reality of the issues here, spelled out in crayon that any turnip could grasp. This isn't new. It was known months before Legion's release that it would be a shitshow for most PvP'ers and Kagthul among others of us here discussed it ad infinitum.

If you find it difficult to accept the facts of what Blizz has done to the game, that's your problem, but it doesn't change those facts.

[Deleted]

What the fuck? The thread title you created is "the gate TO GET INTO PVP" and the gate is lower, everyone has just proved that. EQUAL PLAYING FIELD and "gate to get into" are very different things. It IS entirely about how a newly dinged player fares, if they didnt fare well at all then the gate is high, if they do pretty good, the gate is low. Thats what a fucking gate is, the entry level test.

Yeah ok. If you say so.

edit: also, the 5% damage/healing artifact trait doesnt work in pvp. You really think they'd talk about lowering the barrier to entry and then allow that talent to work? nice.

Yes, I do.

But I give you this much, what I'm mostly talking about is how long it takes to reach an equal playing field as that's what matters, not how someone who just dinged two minutes ago does in pvp, so perhaps I should have phrased the thread title more accurately.

However, the topic at hand is why the pvp participation rate is so low. Do you have something to comment on that topic? What do you think is the reason, if it's not what I presented here?

Additionally, there's no need to be so hostile and drop the f-bomb here and there. Ok?