Is mastery a redundant stat (for many DPS specs)?

[Deleted]

Now, before you start calling me a noob, listen out. I am not saying mastery is a useless stat that should be removed. I am just saying that many masteries across classes are conflicting with (dreadful) versatility and main stats (int, str, agi) as a pure DPS increase. I will be talking here purely from a PvE DPS aspect, as I think masteries for tanks and healers have somewhat better overall design.

What I am saying is that certain masteries are boring and redundant for some DPS specs, as they are basically a pure damage increasing stat. This wouldn't be problematic, if we didn't already have main stats that directly increase damage and versatility, which also acts as a direct dmg increase. What we are basically looking in many classes is 3 stats that do exactly the same thing!

Some of you might say "Well sure, but haste and crit are also a DPS increasing stat, hell all stats that you get from gear serve to increase your damage, otherwise what would be the point of gear". This is very true, however both crit and haste deliver their DPS boost in a different way. Other than pure "your spells have X% chance to deal double damage" and "you can cast spells X% faster" there are other, more interesting interactions that some specs have with these stats. Some specs benefit more from crit, because spell X does Y effect when it crits. Some benefit more from haste, because if they can cast more X spells in 10 secs, that means they can cast Y spell more often as well or their DoTs will tick more often which will increase their chance to proc Z effect. This is something fun and interesting, in my opinion.

On the other hand, you have masteries that are a pure DPS increase. No fun or interesting interactions. Nothing. Just the old boring , "you deal X more damage".

So, let's take a look at all DPS masteries (commentary about stat value, in brackets, is according to IcyVeins stat priority):

• Frost Death Knight - Mastery: Frozen Hearth - increase all frost damage by X% (bottom stat before Haste breakpoint)
• Unholy Death Knight - Mastery: Dreadblade - increase all shadow damage by X% (1 place above bottom stat - Versa)
• Havoc Demon Hunter - Mastery: Demonic Presence - Mastery: Demonic Presence - Increases your Chaos damage by X% and your movement speed by X%. (bottom stat)
• Balance Druid - Mastery: Starlight - Increases Starfall and Starsurge damage, and the effect of Lunar, Solar, and Stellar Empowerments by an additional X%. (bottom stat, equal or worse than Versa)
• Feral Druid - Mastery: Razor Claws - Increases the damage done by your Cat Form bleed abilities by X% (2nd top stat, right after Agi)
• Beast Mastery Hunter - Mastery: Master of Beasts - Increases the damage done by your pets by X% (2nd top stat, right after Agi)
• Marksmanship Hunter - Mastery: Sniper Training - Range of all your ranged abilities is increased by X% and damage of all Focus spending abilities increased by Y%. (top stat)
• Survival Hunter - Mastery: Hunting Companion - Your pet's attacks have a X% chance to grant you an additional charge of Mongoose Bite (shares last spot with haste and crit)
• Arcane Mage - Mastery: Savant -Increases your Mana regeneration rate and maximum Mana by X%. Arcane Charges increase the damage of affected spells by an additional X%. (second top stats, equal or better than crit)
• Fire Mage - Mastery: Ignite - Your target burns for an additional 6% over 9 sec of the total direct damage caused by your Fireball, Fire Blast, Scorch, Pyroblast, Meteor, Cinderstorm , and Flamestrike. If this effect is reapplied, any remaining damage will be added to the new Ignite. Every 2 sec, your Ignites may spread to another nearby enemy. (stat priority fluctuates depending on number of targets)
• Frost Mage - Mastery: Icicles - When you damage enemies with Frostbolt, X% of the damage done is stored as an Icicle for 1 min. Also increases the damage done by your Water Elemental by X%. Casting Ice Lance causes any Icicles stored to begin launching at the target. Up to 5 Icicles can be stored. Excess Icicles will automatically be launched. (bottom stat)
• Windwalker Monk - Mastery: Combo Strikes - Your abilities deal X% more damage when they are not a repeat of the previous ability. (2nd top stat, right after Agi)
• Retribution Paladin - Mastery: Divine Judgment - Increases Judgment damage by X%, and causes Judgment to increase damage taken from your Holy Power spenders by X% for 8 sec.
• Shadow Priest - Mastery: Madness - Increases the damage of your Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, and Void Bolt by X% (middle stat)
• Assassination Rogue - Mastery: Potent Poisons - Increases the damage done by your poisons by X% and the effect of Agonizing Poison by Y% (stat priority fluctuates depending on chosen talents)
• Outlaw Rogue - Mastery: Main Gauche - Your main-hand attacks have a X% chance to trigger an attack with your off-hand that deals 210% Physical damage. (2nd to bottom stat)
• Subtlety Rogue - Mastery: Executioner - Increases the damage done by your finishing moves by X% (2nd top stat, right after Agi)
• Elemental Shaman - Mastery: Elemental Overload - Your Lightning Bolt, Elemental Blast, Icefury, Chain Lightning, and Lava Burst casts have a X% chance to trigger a second cast on the same target for 75% of normal damage and Maelstrom generation. (bottom stat)
• Enhancement Shaman - Mastery: Enhanced Elements -Increases your chance to trigger Stormbringer and Windfury by X%, and increases all Fire, Frost, and Nature damage you deal by Y%
• Affliction Warlock - Mastery: Potent Afflictions -Increases damage done by Agony, Corruption, Siphon Life and Unstable Affliction by X%. (top stat - interestingly, intellect is here 2nd bottom stat with both haste and crit being better than it)
• Demonology Warlock - Mastery: Master Demonologist - Demonic Empowerment also increases the damage of your demons by X%. (2nd to bottom stat)
• Destruction Warlock - Mastery: Chaotic Energies -Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage, up to X%. Damage you take is reduced by a random amount, up to X% (bottom stat)

As you can see, 10 masteries are pure DPS increases. By this I mean that they directly increase damage without any increase in secondary chances like speed in DH or damage reduction in Destro lock. I also don't take Ele Shaman or Outlaw Rogue into the account as their masteries somewhat increase their chance to trigger or use abilities.

I actually like masteries like that of Windwalker Monk, that alter your rotation or mastery of Markmsanship Hunter that can actually help you to avoid some mechanics. On the other hand, masteries like that of Frost DK and Affliction Warlock are extremely unintuitive and boring. In Dk's caste, the mastery is underwhelming and in Affli's case, it's so OP, it shadows intellect by far.

The point where I am going with all of this is that (in my opinion) most masteries need a revamp, so that they are not pure DPS stat. Why? Because we already have our main stats for that. And we have Versatility, but that a story for another time. That of course does not mean all masteries should be overpowered or become most valuable second stat for all DPS specs, as is the case with Frost mage. They have a very interesting mastery, but it's still the bottom stat and that's ok.

What are your thoughts on mastery as a stat in general? Should it be removed completely or revamped for some specs to be more interesting? Do you agree that mastery shouldn't be a pure DPS increasing stat?

[Deleted]

When Mastery was introduced in Cataclysm, Blizzard intended it to be a tuning knob for classes - buffing/nerfing it when classes were weak/strong. Over the years it got replaced by other ideas, since Blizzard tries to re-invent the wheel (class design) with every expansion.

[Galathir]

Unholy Death Knight - Mastery: Dreadblade - increase all shadow damage by X% (1 place above bottom stat - Versa)

This is not true. Depending on Legendaries (bracers) and talent allocation Mastery becomes the best stat.
Plus it makes a whole world of difference in the Castigator+SS vs. CS discussion.

And that's the point. contrary to STR and Versa Mastery doesn't just increase our damage. It increases certain portions of our damage, and that is what makes it special and interesting (at least in Unholy's case), high or low Mastery can change the way you should deal damage and talent your character a lot more that Versatility.

[klaps_05]

as a frost mage if u want to be viable u need 85% to start hitting very high GS.

[Corroc]

Mastery is not feral druids second best stat. It may look like that but simms say otherwise.

[Amaterasu65]

Frost mage is slightly inaccurate. TV build favors haste>crit, while GS build favors mastery>>>crit. Also, arcane barage-less rotation favors mastery if I recall well.

[Deleted]

When Mastery was introduced in Cataclysm, Blizzard intended it to be a tuning knob for classes - buffing/nerfing it when classes were weak/strong. Over the years it got replaced by other ideas, since Blizzard tries to re-invent the wheel (class design) with every expansion.

With that said, do you think it should be removed completely as it no longer serves it's original purpose?

Mastery is not feral druids second best stat. It may look like that but simms say otherwise.

This is not true. Depending on Legendaries (bracers) and talent allocation Mastery becomes the best stat.
Plus it makes a whole world of difference in the Castigator+SS vs. CS discussion.

And that's the point. contrary to STR and Versa Mastery doesn't just increase our damage. It increases certain portions of our damage, and that is what makes it special and interesting (at least in Unholy's case), high or low Mastery can change the way you should deal damage and talent your character a lot more that Versatility.

Frost mage is slightly inaccurate. TV build favors haste>crit, while GS build favors mastery>>>crit. Also, arcane barage-less rotation favors mastery if I recall well.

Sorry for inaccuracy, I don't play any of these classes you mentioned so I just copy/pasted stat weight from IcyVeins.

[ryudaraku]

What are your thoughts on mastery as a stat in general?

It is a nice way to differentiate the specs a bit in terms of flavor, in the very least I consider it the best secondary stat for that reason alone.

Should it be removed completely or revamped for some specs to be more interesting?

It really shouldn't be touched. The problem with many spec's masteries being so low is that Legion is pretty much World of HasteCraft, There are WAY too many specs that value haste highly right now. Between GDC reduction and the fact that everybody has a major skill with cooldown reduced by haste there is no room for other stats to really shine.

[Neony]

What about warriors?

[l33t]

To be honest, I feel like we have unneededly bloated secondaries in a game. We could pretty much remove mastery and useless crapstat AKA versa, add critical damage stat just like the one Diablo has (which increases the damage % increase from crits), and be golden. I bet all these crap secondaries serve no purpose beside not letting people get their bis gear for as long as humanly possible.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

To be honest, I feel like we have unneededly bloated secondaries in a game. We could pretty much remove mastery and useless crapstat AKA versa, add critical damage stat just like the one Diablo has (which increases the damage % increase from crits), and be golden. I bet all these crap secondaries serve no purpose beside not letting people get their bis gear for as long as humanly possible.

Wouldn't that really be the same as mastery though? Its just increased damage in the end.

[Morgaith]

Fury, third after strength and haste.
Arms: Most important.

Says Icy Veins, now you can come in and say that site is shite

https://gyazo.com/10ec36a6417f31ac79456bd549752bb1


fury

[Deleted]

What about warriors?

Sorry, overlooked warriors ^^

[Raiju]

Havoc mastery is joint best in .1.5 and becomes slightly more than a passive % with Chaos Blades - the talent everyone runs anyway (If you argue outside raids, then mastery is arguably second best already since it's far stronger in dungeons & world content)

[Flurryfang]

I really like mastery On some classes, they bring interesting interactions and a fun late-game, since you can take it to the max Having high mastery as an assa rogue is really fun, because you become a dot god The same with elemental shaman, since you just start being a gatling guy Or guardian druid High mastery there is just a really fun thing for both tank and healer, since you do some amazing healing there

All in all, i think that mastery is alright, but if something needs culled, versa should go away.

[Soisoisoi]

For Sub Rogues, Mastery and Versa swap places, FWIW.

[Creraria]

Aha...so icy and pwn are lying to me

not necessarily, he is just posting HIS weights, as fury you ALWAYS have to sim yourself to get yours, usually its Haste>mast>Vers~Crit~Str

[Dazu]

I think everyones mastery should have a little utility added to it similar to the DH ones (run speed).

Could be something like reducing CDs by X% like the MoP trinkets did. Move speed like DH, improvements to some less used spells/utility spells say like reduced CD on hex for a shaman aswell as current benefit.

It wouldnt be gamebreaking or OP for the most part. Might make it harder to balance though.

[Frozenbeef]

I love mastery as an affliction warlock :/

[Sinzaram]

When Mastery was introduced in Cataclysm, Blizzard intended it to be a tuning knob for classes - buffing/nerfing it when classes were weak/strong. Over the years it got replaced by other ideas, since Blizzard tries to re-invent the wheel (class design) with every expansion.

Mastery in cata was always badly explained.
They added two things in cata. The spec specific passives when you speced at level 10, and the mastery stat.

The spec specific passives were meant to be the tuning knob, Unholy dk weak? better buff Unholy Might. Ret too weak better buff Sword of Light.

Orignally the mastery stat and the spec specific passives were both set to increase with mastery gear but they changed that late in Cata Beta and we got the system we have today.

Mastery stat was never a tuning knob, only the spec specific passives, which are mostly removed at this point.