Challenge Mode vs Mythic+

[Deleted]

CM=everyone's gear gets normalized (WoD-style where sockets don't count)
Mythic+ = gear isn't normalized

Kinda sad that now you need very good gear to do anything above mythic+10 or so when in WoD for CM you only needed pieces with the right stats. Something like a "rich getting richer" situation.

Thoughts on which one is preferable and another solutions are welcomed.

[Deja Thoris]

Solutions generally require problems. I'm not seeing the problem here.

As to your bullshit "rich getting richer" analogy, everybody started this expansion on a pretty even footing. It's not that hard to get to a level where you can do higher mythic+ instances (hint, you don't need 880 for a +6).

You're really comparing apples and oranges here.

[Deleted]

Solutions generally require problems. I'm not seeing the problem here.

As to your bullshit "rich getting richer" analogy, everybody started this expansion on a pretty even footing. It's not that hard to get to a level where you can do higher mythic+ instances (hint, you don't need 880 for a +6).

You're really comparing apples and oranges here.

Yeah, pretty much all of this.

[deadman1]

It's an MMO, the people who invest more time to progress their character should be further ahead.

[primalmatter]

It's an MMO, the people who invest more time to progress their character should be further ahead.

Those who complete harder content deserve to progress ahead.

Time never really played a large role at level cap... so long as you could put aside roughly 10-12 hours to raid and another 2 or 3 in-between you could raid in a top 100 guild.

[Tanthalas]

Challenge modes were an interesting system with complete lack of rewards, there was no point doing them twice.
But gear farming for it was stupid – you were basicly battling against imperfectness of blizz downgrade system.

Even though mythic+ has it's own problems with rewards, it's much more honest towards your gear – you don't need separate set, swap couple of talents, equip aoe trinket and you're good to go.

[Deleted]

Solutions generally require problems. I'm not seeing the problem here.

As to your bullshit "rich getting richer" analogy, everybody started this expansion on a pretty even footing. It's not that hard to get to a level where you can do higher mythic+ instances (hint, you don't need 880 for a +6).

You're really comparing apples and oranges here.

not the difficulty of the dungeons makes the requirement, its the leader of the pug. And the leader of the pug wants 895+ for any keystone level if he could.

[narendal94]

not the difficulty of the dungeons makes the requirement, its the leader of the pug. And the leader of the pug wants 895+ for any keystone level if he could.

Ofc you want high geared players, that generally increases your chance at success. You don't like it? Make your own group and set the ilvl requirement to 810!

[Deleted]

Ofc you want high geared players, that generally increases your chance at success. You don't like it? Make your own group and set the ilvl requirement to 810!

halo effect - ilvl increases nothing.

[narendal94]

halo effect - ilvl increases nothing.

Ilvl does increase a players overall damage. He might be shit and do close to no damage but his potential to do more damage is higher if he got 880 rather than 810.
I just assume that every pug I play with is equally as shit.

[deadman1]

Those who complete harder content deserve to progress ahead.

Time never really played a large role at level cap... so long as you could put aside roughly 10-12 hours to raid and another 2 or 3 in-between you could raid in a top 100 guild.

That's implied by what I said "Time to progress their character" meaning pushing the proper content to progress.

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Ilvl does increase a players overall damage. He might be shit and do close to no damage but his potential to do more damage is higher if he got 880 rather than 810.
I just assume that every pug I play with is equally as shit.

You're making an argument about 70 ilvl, the point is a lot of the time it's better to take a 10 ilvl drop (sometimes more) for proper stats. See fire mages, MM hunters.

[Deleted]

And yet the rules of "more itmlvl more dmg" reign even with the "but some items are better for x y z specs even with less 10itm lvl"

If you don't like the system that actually players make (not blizzard) do your own group

[narendal94]

That's implied by what I said "Time to progress their character" meaning pushing the proper content to progress.

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You're making an argument about 70 ilvl, the point is a lot of the time it's better to take a 10 ilvl drop (sometimes more) for proper stats. See fire mages, MM hunters.

I think you're missing my point. I was not argueing about stat weights, just that higher ilvl generally means more damage. If I've got the choice between two mages that both itemize correctly, one is 880 and the other 875. I would always go with the 880 because in theory he can do more damage. It might backfire, he might have been boosted and the other mage might be a rank 1 player. But in 9 out of 10 times it's the right choice to pick the higher ilvl player for pugs.

I might have a skeewed sight on this because I rarely pug and when I do it's usually only one random in the group of 4 friends. All I know is that 1 good leader can carry 4 others in a dungeon. A prime example of this was in cataclysm. A lot of people thought that the dungeons was too hard, I never noticed. I took charge of every group and rarely wiped. I called CC explained tactics if someone didn't know, what needed to be interrupted etc.

Ofc that wasn't timed but if you want good and quick communication you should already be in a voice comm and strategize before the run. And by doing so you might find new friends and you wont have to pug and care about your ilvl anymore.

[deadman1]

I think you're missing my point. I was not argueing about stat weights, just that higher ilvl generally means more damage. If I've got the choice between two mages that both itemize correctly, one is 880 and the other 875. I would always go with the 880 because in theory he can do more damage. It might backfire, he might have been boosted and the other mage might be a rank 1 player. But in 9 out of 10 times it's the right choice to pick the higher ilvl player for pugs.

I might have a skeewed sight on this because I rarely pug and when I do it's usually only one random in the group of 4 friends. All I know is that 1 good leader can carry 4 others in a dungeon. A prime example of this was in cataclysm. A lot of people thought that the dungeons was too hard, I never noticed. I took charge of every group and rarely wiped. I called CC explained tactics if someone didn't know, what needed to be interrupted etc.

Ofc that wasn't timed but if you want good and quick communication you should already be in a voice comm and strategize before the run. And by doing so you might find new friends and you wont have to pug and care about your ilvl anymore.

Sure but item level doesn't imply that someone is properly itemized. That was all I was saying.

Otherwise you are correct.

[Stuffs]

Kinda sad that now you need very good gear to do anything above mythic+10 .

That's the whole point of PvE content. You do harder gear, to get better gear, to do even harder content.

Yeah challenge modes were a great idea for the most part but they had a fundamental flaw-there was no point in doing them after the first time.

Sure but item level doesn't imply that someone is properly itemized. That was all I was saying.

Otherwise you are correct.

Sure but if you're not familiar with their class going with ilvl is the next best thing. Aside from rings/necks ilvl will generally be the dictating factor anyways, since primary stats are so heavily weighted. There are exceptions of course, but I'm working with the assumption the individual is ignorant of the pugs class/spec.

[ydraw]

That's implied by what I said "Time to progress their character" meaning pushing the proper content to progress.

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You're making an argument about 70 ilvl, the point is a lot of the time it's better to take a 10 ilvl drop (sometimes more) for proper stats. See fire mages, MM hunters.

This argument is pretty irrelevant since it's not your equipped ilvl that's shown in the group finder, it's the highest ilvl of all gear in your bags. So unless you sold the higher ilvl stuff (which would be silly since that means you can't trade gear to people) then the group leader isn't going to see that lower ilvl gear with better stats you have equipped. He's going to see the highest ilvl gear you own.

[primalmatter]

That's implied by what I said "Time to progress their character" meaning pushing the proper content to progress.

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You're making an argument about 70 ilvl, the point is a lot of the time it's better to take a 10 ilvl drop (sometimes more) for proper stats. See fire mages, MM hunters.

Time =\= skill

[Akka]

Thoughts on which one is preferable and another solutions are welcomed.

Neither is preferable. Both are bad solution to a single problem which is plaguing the game since WotLK : stupidly high gear inflation.
The solution is to simply stop inflating the numbers so much, so that gear increases vastly slower (à la Vanilla/TBC) and allows to refocus the game on gameplay instead of just who can line up the most zeros in their stat.

[impending doom]

Some people would like normalized gear(or make stat increases much smaller) which allows main focus to be on skill, and others like when they can spend lot of time upgrading their gear. Best way to please both would be to make separate modes.

Or a simpler solution: give extra rewards based on how much the group is "undergeared" for the content, it could be mounts, transmog gear, achievements or leaderboards with special rewards at end of season. Kind of like Herald of the Titans.

[Sierra85]

Something like a "rich getting richer" situation.

this doesnt make any sense. it gives you something to work towards, everyone is always getting richer. if noone was getting any upgrades at all why would anyone bother to log on.

this is one are legion is excelling at more than any other expansion. there is always something to do to upgrade your character.