The game is broken without reforging

[Ham on Rye]

No, it's not, and that doesn't actually work or breaks game design.

Yes it is, and it works perfectly well.

[BiggestNoob]

Yes it is, and it works perfectly well.

Here's some life advice since you're either sub 20 or too stupid to have ever bothered to spend any of it learning: stop using terms you don't understand. Stop and think, and use a fucking dictionary once in a while.

A bandaid informally is a temporary solution or one which doesn't actually address the problem.

Let's look at what happens when we do what you claim. Let's take a common stat weight where main > secondaries:

main = 1.0
crit = 0.9
mastery = 0.8
haste = 0.78
vers = 0.82

Now an item drops that's haste/vers or mastery/haste. A typical 865 item looks like this:

1491 main stat
927 secondary
453 secondary

Let's say there's a haste/vers drop and a crit/vers drop, giving you two items:

1491 + 927*0.78 + 453*0.82 = 2585.52
1491 + 927*0.9 + 453*0.82 = 2696.76

That's a 4.3% difference.

So what's the conclusion? The problem still exists. What your proposed change (making secondaries worse) has done is: make secondaries slightly less important. They still matter. The problem still exists, meaning your fix doesn't actually fix anything, or we could say your fix is a bandaid. It doesn't actually solve any problem here.

The reason you don't understand why this doesn't work is because you think the weights being anything other than main > all secondaries is the problem. That's not the problem. The problem is that there's a big difference between BiS items and items with bad secondaries. Out of 4 secondaries, most items only have two, and typically weighted heavily towards one of those two. If every stat weight was identical for every spec (that is, stats didn't matter), there would be no such thing as BiS aside from ilvl. This doesn't work because spec design often makes mastery or crit or haste better than other stats (some specs have a strong mastery, some have synergy with crit, some have DoTs and haste breakpoints, etc) depending on the spec. This is inherent in the design of this game and every RPG. Making all of these scale identically is not actually mathematically possible, so that "solution" is a non-starter. You could, perhaps, remove secondaries entirely from items and that's what some people have argued for (dumbing down items). That's just more bad design, and we don't need any more of that in Legion because it's already a fractal of bad design.

[Deleted]

Here's my idea you wanted, remove all classes then players can either chose from 1 DPS, 1 tank and 1 healer. Fucking ridiculous that you think you being smart with your comment you fucking cunt.

Ahaha i just love how you get triggered for a videogame. Good luck in real life my friend!

[ComputerNerd]

I agree.

It is very discouraging to run any of the harder content, such as high mythic+ or mythic raids, when the usefulness of the rewards is decided by a roll of the die. Even if I get an 895 titanforged item, if it doesn't have crit I wont use it. If it is a ring or neck, and it doesn't have a socket? Guess that is just too bad. Not to mention I can't even trade any of the items because of how personal loot works (which is freaking stupid, btw. You should be able to trade any personal loot regardless of item level).

Reforging would enable us to get some use out of these items, instead of just selling them, DE'ing them, or leaving them to rot in our banks in case stat priorities change. I think that reforging together with being able to trade personal loot without the ilvl restrictions would solve alot of problems with the current roll-of-the-die based system (not to mention personal loot). But it seems like Blizzard is taking the path of most resistance and changing stat scaling and classes instead, so lets see if they can get it right this time...

The usefulness of any loot was determined by the roll of a die.
As in what actually dropped.
Reforging near eliminates any actual relevance to a varied loot table.
You ought to just resort to armor or weapon type and item level at that point, since if the stats can be reforged then they become irrelevant.

[Zka]

oh noes, not all gear i obtain has perfect bis stats, game is ruined...-.-

This.
Also, the game is not broken. The secondary stat balancing is broken because of sloppy design. Reforging would not fix that, it would just bandaid it.

[Levyan]

The usefulness of any loot was determined by the roll of a die.
As in what actually dropped.
Reforging near eliminates any actual relevance to a varied loot table.
You ought to just resort to armor or weapon type and item level at that point, since if the stats can be reforged then they become irrelevant.

I rather like reforging, but I see your point. My only problem with that argument is that I have often found that there was no optimal piece for secondary stats for most of the items in a tier. Now we have M+, but that's roulette looking for titanforged.

I seem to remember that Blizzard changed the budgeting of secondaries on gear to help flatten the exponential power curve throughout the xpac, but I always thought that odd. I thought that lowering the secondaries on gear and providing an increased base to secondaries would have been better. That's hard though as talent options often scew the importance of secondaries. Hence circling back to reforging or building it into the talent options.

[Deleted]

So let me get this straight



INSTEAD of GETTING all the gear with MIN MAX primary stats and stack it


YOU WANT REFORGE BACK


TO DO THE SAME THING? wut

[Deleted]

Ahaha i just love how you get triggered for a videogame. Good luck in real life my friend!

I like that arguing and disagreing with someone is considered triggered.

[Nnyco]

Get rid of secondary stats. Base abilities and a primary stat + armor. Done. I fixed the game for everyone and made it easier to tune, less is better anyways. Ilvl increases would be obvious upgrades.

Wow I should be a developer. Hire me blizz.

you should write an application so blizzard can laugh at you too

[Aggrophobic]

Reforging won't fix the fact that some secondary stats are complete trash for many classes. Them nerfing the percentages also won't fix it, BUT it should make ilvl a bit more useful compared to before. Reforging just encouraged blizz to make 1 stat the OP stat for a spec, I'm glad it's gone.

Actually, for some classes it'll make secondary stats even more imprtant and ilvl less so.

[Elim Garak]

you should write an application so blizzard can laugh at you too

Chances are that's what Blizzard wants to do as well but they are just afraid of the "dumbing down!" crowd. So they do it in increments. Hit, parry, and dodge are gone, remember? They replaced them with some new flavor stats to compensate for the loss, and then removed those as well. Parry/Dodge tied to other stats like Crit. Did you notice this change at all?

And Versatility is a glimpse of the future.

[Pua]

Reforging won't fix the fact that some secondary stats are complete trash for many classes.

This is the problem.

There's too big a variance between secondaries, based on your class and/or specialisation.

There are many routes they could take to solving the problem, but treating reforging as "the issue" is missing the point entirely. As an example, here are some things they might try:

1) Balancing secondaries properly.

Pro: Gear wouldn't be trash if it had the wrong secondaries.

Con: They've been trying for years - it's obvious they can't do it.

2) Reforging.

Pro: You can remove some junk secondaries in favour of better ones.

Con: The complication of the system made it a pain in the neck.

3) Characters could permanently "attune" bad secondaries into their primary one.

Pro: Gear no longer has good or bad secondaries - it always has "yours" (tuning would also be much easier).

Con: There'd be a dramatic drop in gear variance.

4) All secondaries become one; mastery.

Pro: Balancing is easy, everything works fine, no more BiS lists.

Con: Whether you get plate, mail, leather or cloth is "the" choice. Horribly unexciting.

I could go on, of course, but there isn't much point. You might like some of these concepts, you might like none, or you might have your own. That's all cool. But the problem is that secondary performance varies far too much because the designers have proven that they can't balance it properly. How best you think that problem is solved, is up to you.

The designers, however, likely won't agree.

[Nnyco]

Chances are that's what Blizzard wants to do as well but they are just afraid of the "dumbing down!" crowd. So they do it in increments. Hit, parry, and dodge are gone, remember? They replaced them with some new flavor stats to compensate for the loss, and then removed those as well. Parry/Dodge tied to other stats like Crit. Did you notice this change at all?

And Versatility is a glimpse of the future.

if you think hit/exp dodge/parry were interestin stats then maybe you should join him with your ideas

[Ham on Rye]

Here's some life advice since you're either sub 20 or too stupid to have ever bothered to spend any of it learning: stop using terms you don't understand. Stop and think, and use a fucking dictionary once in a while.

A bandaid informally is a temporary solution or one which doesn't actually address the problem.

Let's look at what happens when we do what you claim. Let's take a common stat weight where main > secondaries:

main = 1.0
crit = 0.9
mastery = 0.8
haste = 0.78
vers = 0.82

Now an item drops that's haste/vers or mastery/haste. A typical 865 item looks like this:

1491 main stat
927 secondary
453 secondary

Let's say there's a haste/vers drop and a crit/vers drop, giving you two items:

1491 + 927*0.78 + 453*0.82 = 2585.52
1491 + 927*0.9 + 453*0.82 = 2696.76

That's a 4.3% difference.

So what's the conclusion? The problem still exists. What your proposed change (making secondaries worse) has done is: make secondaries slightly less important. They still matter. The problem still exists, meaning your fix doesn't actually fix anything, or we could say your fix is a bandaid. It doesn't actually solve any problem here.

The reason you don't understand why this doesn't work is because you think the weights being anything other than main > all secondaries is the problem. That's not the problem. The problem is that there's a big difference between BiS items and items with bad secondaries. Out of 4 secondaries, most items only have two, and typically weighted heavily towards one of those two. If every stat weight was identical for every spec (that is, stats didn't matter), there would be no such thing as BiS aside from ilvl. This doesn't work because spec design often makes mastery or crit or haste better than other stats (some specs have a strong mastery, some have synergy with crit, some have DoTs and haste breakpoints, etc) depending on the spec. This is inherent in the design of this game and every RPG. Making all of these scale identically is not actually mathematically possible, so that "solution" is a non-starter. You could, perhaps, remove secondaries entirely from items and that's what some people have argued for (dumbing down items). That's just more bad design, and we don't need any more of that in Legion because it's already a fractal of bad design.

I think you're the one that needs to actually learn to read, because I never said anything about making all stats identical for every spec, and I never said anything about making secondaries worse.

I stand by what I said. Reforging is a bandaid and nothing more. It doesn't fix the underlying problem. It just makes the problem slightly less shitty to deal with.

[ComputerNerd]

It is easy to complain about the balancing of secondary stats, but very few bother to consider WHY it is a problem.
There isn't just one encounter, one format that they trying to balance around.
Single-target, AoE of varying numbers, spread multi-target, etc.
And that isn't even taking into account gear improvements changing the scaling, and talents.

Reforging seems a simple solution, but is one looking for a problem.
It does not solve anything that is better done by outright removal.
Not that I support that idea either.

Reforging does not fix anything.
It only masks it, and adds complication on top of what it is actually achieving, removing the relevance of any secondary stats.
If the secondary stats cease to mean anything then what is the point of having them at all, as it only adds a gold cost for players.

[netherflame]

Someone doesn't know much about the game.

Nailed it, but not really though.

[Kazuchika]

You're completely right OP.

Game is literally unplayable without reforging. 100% unplayable.

[shonist]

From what i understand, they are not bringing reforging back next patch, they are nerfing the secondary stats so we need more of the stats for the same percentage, but how does that fix the system? im getting a bunch of gear with garbage secondary stats that i never use, how does nerfing the secondary stats fix that?

Quote Originally Posted by mstg View Post
im getting a bunch of gear with garbage secondary stats that i never use, how does nerfing the secondary stats fix that?
It doesn't.
Secondary stats are nerfed for different, completely unrelated reasons.

[Cyanu]

well it's certainly annoying that in the end your characters chars are decided a bit too much by rng

for instance i have much more haste that i'd like because alot of my items that have tons of crit (my main stat) happen to have haste as secondary and i also looted a legendary with haste as it's primary so i ended with over 5000 haste accidentally, despite i was aiming to get only ~2000

reforging would help this as essentially in 7.0 and 7.1 if it doesn't have your 'good stat' you ditch it, in 7.1.5 you just wear whatever has the highest ilevel on it, either way you have little control of where your character is going

[Jastall]

What I don't understand is how Reforging is complicated. For most specs, you switch over bad stats for good stats. You don't need to be a theoretical mathematician to do that.

And if people make bad decisions, so what? People make bad, uninformed decisions all the time. I had this Fury warrior stack the ever-loving crap out of Haste at the expense of everything (ilvl included) and he did bad DPS. Because Haste might be Fury's best stat thanks to it increasing attack speed and Enrage uptime, but without STR backing you up and Mastery to make said Enrage actually mean something, Haste isn't that great. But, he went to IcyVeins and saw that Haste was first so he mindlessly stacked Haste.

At this point, nothing short of removing secondaries entirely would make the system foolproof for people who don't spend a second to actually think about what their secondaries do. And that's not a solution. So, implement reforging to alleviate the RNG in gearing. Let the people who don't think about what they're doing make mistakes; chances are, they're not doing content that requires optimized gearing anyway.