Will this be considered a stain in American history?

[Skroe]

I think you're missing something with regards to this, that three groups of people best representing America as a nation, it's self image, tradition and civil religion, voted for Trump.

The Military voted for Trump.
The Veterans voted for Trump.
The Police voted for Trump.

They didn't so because they're bigoted assholes. These people represent the very core of America in it's traditions, civil religion and self image and they all, overwhelmingly with high turnout, voted for Trump.

Maybe that's just a representation of how angry these groups were at Obama and the Democrats, Obama had a 16% approval rating with the military.

The institutions you named are part of America's fabric. A valued and important part. But also a proportionate part. This country is and will always be, first and foremost, about the vast majority of American, who are not military, not veterans, not police, no government officials. But private citizens. The military does not know best.

The groups you named don't have the authority on the status of our national traditions and civil religion. They play a part, but only part. Those traditions are built up over decades by great Americans of all background, in small and big successes.

Witness Kennedy's inaugural:

We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge--and more.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided there is little we can do--for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

To those new states whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom--and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe.

Now the trumpet summons us again--not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need--not as a call to battle, though embattled we are-- but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation"--a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease and war itself.

Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility--I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it--and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

Read that. Especially the bolded part. A far cry from "American Carnage" eh? Donald Trump is a small man and his underlings are small people.

What Kennedy is espousing is the universality of our most fundamental values. These are our traditions. You've made it abundantly clear by this point you don't understand what they, why they are valued or why they are under threat. But here they are, and this is the great iceberg that Donald Trump and his supporters will utterly crash upon in weeks and months ahead.

[Wyrt]

You are on a roll!!! Talk about a farce.

I know, that speech he gave to the CIA was rather farcical. He even referred to himself in the 3rd person during it.

[Vallcorr]

@Skroe, optics matter to some. Substance matters to others. I will say this as a republican and trump voter though. I will miss the class obama and his beautiful family showed and represented our nation with, i will miss it, i believe he was the best human being to occupy the presidency in my lifetime. But it is indeed time for a new hand. Just give this man a chance. Obama was my president and i thank him for his 8 years of service. Believe me i deeply understand why people strongly dislike Trump, but this man needs a chance to lead this country, he won the electoral college by strategically campaigning in the states he needed to. Everyone knew going in that the popular vote was not the deciding factor in winning the presidency, and if it was he would've campaigned differently. It is not a good excuse to use for his illegitimacy. Hillary was not a strong candidate, people quickly want to forget that. Sanders should've been the one going against Trump. People went out to vote with the information they had in November, and trump came out victorious. We all need to go out and show each other love, protest with love, not hate. That is a message that will truly resonate.

[Deleted]

For the rest of the world it was already a stain the moment people realized he was going to get votes. Right now the US is basicly the laughing stock of the entire world. You elected a fucking reality-star as the leader of your entire nation...... god

Anyway as for how the US will see it i guess it depends on the next few years. If he somehow managed not to fuck up every single international relation it might not be that bad internally

[Netherspark]

Bro. Just give up. I did.

You forget. You are arguing and debating with people who think that
We bombed our own buildings. There is no reasoning with them.

And the "In Before" is late. One of them already called him orange as well as hitler. Hah!

You just can't argue / debate with the irrational.

But apparently you can argue with the imaginary. Easier that way I suppose....

[Vallcorr]

But apparently you can argue with the imaginary. Easier that way I suppose....

How about you respond to my post, you glossed over me.

[Tonkaden]

I know, that speech he gave to the CIA was rather farcical. He even referred to himself in the 3rd person during it.

I'm guessing one doesn't understand sarcasm. I'll leave you to play with your ball.

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But apparently you can argue with the imaginary. Easier that way I suppose....

I'd rather debate with rational people. There is no "rational" with you people. Your sense of rational is

"Trump is hitler and Fidel's offspring... America is going back to the Stone Age!!!" Its beating my head on the wall. Literally no point.

[Vallcorr]

I'm guessing one doesn't understand sarcasm. I'll leave you to play with your ball.

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I'd rather debate with rational people. There is no "rational" with you people. Your sense of rational is

"Trump is hitler and Fidel's offspring... America is going back to the Stone Age!!!" Its beating my head on the wall. Literally no point.

It is like beating a head against a wall! I gave a 100% logical response to why trump had to talk about the inauguration numbers and he ignored me. I just want to debate one of these guys and they can't respond to me!

[Netherspark]

I'm guessing one doesn't understand sarcasm. I'll leave you to play with your ball.

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I'd rather debate with rational people. There is no "rational" with you people. Your sense of rational is

"Trump is hitler and Fidel's offspring... America is going back to the Stone Age!!!" Its beating my head on the wall. Literally no point.

This is the literal definition of irrationality.

[Wyrt]

I'm guessing one doesn't understand sarcasm. I'll leave you to play with your ball.

I got that it was sarcasm. I just turned it around so it was about Trump. But apparently that went over your head.

[Vallcorr]

This is the literal definition of irrationality.

You still haven't responded to me.

[Tonkaden]

This is the literal definition of irrationality.

The shoe is on the other foot. My point exactly.

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You still haven't responded to me.

Once you hem them up, they act like you don't exist It's pure comedy. haha.

[Vallcorr]

This is the literal definition of irrationality.

I'll take your silence as a sign that you have absolutely nothing to come back with on that.

[Tonkaden]

I got that it was sarcasm. I just turned it around so it was about Trump. But apparently that went over your head.

Whatever you say there guy.

[Skroe]

@Skroe, optics matter to some. Substance matters to others. I will say this as a republican and trump voter though. I will miss the class obama and his beautiful family showed and represented our nation with, i will miss it, i believe he was the best human being to occupy the presidency in my lifetime. But it is indeed time for a new hand.

I am a Republican too. And an actual conservative.

[Just give this man a chance. Obama was my president and i thank him for his 8 years of service. Believe me i deeply understand why people strongly dislike Trump, but this man needs a chance to lead this country, he won the electoral college by strategically campaigning in the states he needed to. Everyone knew going in that the popular vote was not the deciding factor in winning the presidency, and if it was he would've campaigned differently. It is not a good excuse to use for his illegitimacy. Hillary was not a strong candidate, people quickly want to forget that. Sanders should've been the one going against Trump. People went out to vote with the information they had in November, and trump came out victorious. We all need to go out and show each other love, protest with love, not hate. That is a message that will truly resonate.

I will_NEVER_ give Trump a chance. Ever. Not now. Not five months from now. Not ever.

Over a year ago, when Trump first took to the stage, I dabbled in supporting him for a couple of weeks. The appeal of an independent, self funded candidate outside the political mainstream was appealing to me.

And then he lied.

And lied.

And kept lying.

And then he insulted minorities and women. The disabled. Our allies. He denounce pillars of American principles. He offered kind words to our enemies. He made common cause with American extremists.

I will be dead before I give Donald Trump a chance to do spit. The manner in which a man does something matters. Character matters.

Donald Trump has no honor. He has no integrity. He has no shame. And he holds fundamental American values in utter disdain. And well beyond ALL Of that, at the very least, he is no conservative. But compared to everything else, that's a minor quibble.

Donald Trump ran an un-American, illiberal (in the international political sense) platform. That very quickly became the easiest "fuck no" of my political life.

You're foolish for supporting him and given enough time, you will come to regret it. You had countless chances to get off the crazy train. Countless. Maybe when it turned out he was an actual sexual predator. Maybe it was when he insulted the disabled and minorities. Maybe it was when he cheered on Vladmir Putin. And you never did. I just hope on that day, you and the rest of his supporters are filled with the shame you so richly deserved for letting a monster such as him into the office of Washington, of Jefferson, of Lincoln, of Teddy Roosevelt, of Eisenhower, of Reagan. Him being there, an insect among titans, is your doing. Your President. Never mine.

More likely you people, who failed your moral test, will just retcon your reason as to why you backed him. People with integrity do not vote for a man who demeaned fundamental American values like he did, for whatever reason you attempt to justify it with. American principles matter more than economic security, and Donald Trump represents their abandonment in the name of a would-be strongman.

[Vallcorr]

The shoe is on the other foot. My point exactly.

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Once you hem them up, they act like you don't exist It's pure comedy. haha.

I've been around for 3 pages now and the only person who could respond to me was skroe and all he could talk about was the decorations in the oval office of past presidents! I mean what the hell where is the logic with these people!

[Tonkaden]

I am a Republican too. And an actual conservative.



I will_NEVER_ give Trump a chance. Ever. Not now. Not five months from now. Not ever.

Over a year ago, when Trump first took to the stage, I dabbled in supporting him for a couple of weeks. The appeal of an independent, self funded candidate outside the political mainstream was appealing to me.

And then he lied.

And lied.

And kept lying.

And then he insulted minorities and women. The disabled. Our allies. He denounce pillars of American principles. He offered kind words to our enemies. He made common cause with American extremists.

I will be dead before I give Donald Trump a chance to do spit. The manner in which a man does something matters. Character matters.

Donald Trump has no honor. He has no integrity. He has no shame. And he holds fundamental American values in utter disdain. And well beyond ALL Of that, at the very least, he is no conservative. But compared to everything else, that's a minor quibble.

Donald Trump ran an un-American, illiberal (in the international political sense) platform. That very quickly became the easiest "fuck no" of my political life.

You're foolish for supporting him and given enough time, you will come to regret it. You had countless chances to get off the crazy train. Countless. Maybe when it turned out he was an actual sexual predator. Maybe it was when he insulted the disabled and minorities. Maybe it was when he cheered on Vladmir Putin. And you never did. I just hope on that day, you and the rest of his supporters are filled with the shame you so richly deserved for letting a monster such as him into the office of Washington, of Jefferson, of Lincoln, of Teddy Roosevelt, of Eisenhower, of Reagan. Him being there, an insect among titans, is your doing. Your President. Never mine.

More likely you people, who failed your moral test, will just retcon your reason as to why you backed him. People with integrity do not vote for a man who demeaned fundamental American values like he did, for whatever reason you attempt to justify it with. American principles matter more than economic security, and Donald Trump represents their abandonment in the name of a would-be strongman.

So you will never support another President ever? EVERY politician in the WORLD lies. It comes easier than breathing.

[Netherspark]

You still haven't responded to me.

Do I mean so much to you? Or do you just need to "beat" someone in a so-called debate? I can see why you admire Trump...

I don't care about you, or your opinions.

[Tonkaden]

Do I mean so much to you? Or do you just need to "beat" someone in a so-called debate? I can see why you admire Trump...

I don't care about you, or your opinions.

Classic deflecting. You get called out and run for the hills! Man I love MMO-Champ.

[Deleted]

Classic deflecting. You get called out and run for the hills! Man I love MMO-Champ.

This is basicly the effect Trump has on the US already now. You either blindly follow him or you laugh at him.

This thread didnt exist when Obama got the powa