Nazis were right wing, not left

[Jun]

Fascism is counter-revolutionary, in the sense that Joseph de Maistre defined counter-revolutions as "not ... a reverse revolution, but the reverse of the Revolution" - and as such is explicitly right-wing. It is the assertion of a particular hierarchy, based on national identity, in the context of that hierarchy's absence. That absence is universally blamed on forces and institutions of left-wing social corruption; Marxists, foreigners, Jews, etc. Only when those forces are overthrown and defeated can that hierarchy assert itself once again, and democratic politics is conceptualized as itself a corruptive force that stands in opposition to fascist goals. Thus fascism is autocratic in means.

It is nationalist in that it situates the protection of the national identity from these left-wing forces as the primary obligation of state power. It is socialist in that it works to mobilize the body politic into a single cohesive unit for the sole purpose of achieving this end. It is not conservative, in that it rejects orthodox traditionalism in favor of revolutionary traditionalism, but it is still very much right-wing.

Nailed it.

[Deleted]

Some posters on here claim I am far right, because I want stricter immigration policies *cough*rym*cough*

And I'm also a racist according to another. Though when challenged to say who I am supposed to be racist against, they didn't actually know.

Presumably I'm just a general racist and ethnicity isn't a factor to me - though I think that ignoring ethnicity would make me really crap at the whole racism thing - that poster then promptly called everyone from the Middle East a backward racist, which was odd.

I'm a racist misogynistic homophobic homosexual SJW terrorist sympathizer liberal conservative gay mafia member according to MMOC

[FAILoZOFF]

Constantly amazed by how Hitler and Mussolini are constantly dredged up as bad people and used as a stick to beat anyone with right wing views over the head, despite the fact that many on the right of the political spectrum are equally horrified by both of those people and their actions

Why are there never threads demonising the leaders of the old USSR leaders who enslaved whole countries, set up their own concentration camps, detained without trial, undertook state sponsored murder, no right to free speech, few, if any civil liberties etc

And that did not end until the collapse of the USSR in the 1980's

Whilst those espousing similar, or the same political views of Hitler and Mussolini should certainly be vilified, equally so should those who follow the odious extreme left views prevalent in most eastern european countries until recent times should also be called to account

Many of those responsible for appalling atrocities in those countries are still alive and very few have ever been held to account unlike the nazis who have literally been hounded to the grave

Oh silly me, they're now socialists..........

for that same reasons "people" (i dont actually count communists as humans) like Gilrak are allowed to have hammer and sickle emblems on forums (not just THIS one), even if just as some form of joke or something and remain not banned but the second I'd do that same but instead of h&s i'd have swastika i'd get banned 1s after

infracted - minor flaming

[Kalis]

I'm a racist misogynistic homophobic homosexual SJW terrorist sympathizer liberal conservative gay mafia member according to MMOC

To be fair, you're a Tyke, which is arguably worse than any of those things.

[JohnBrown1917]

for that same reasons "people" (i dont actually count communists as humans) like Gilrak are allowed to have hammer and sickle emblems on forums (not just THIS one), even if just as some form of joke or something and remain not banned but the second I'd do that same but instead of h&s i'd have swastika i'd get banned 1s after

Ever heard about Anarcho-communism?

[Slybak]

Constantly amazed by how Hitler and Mussolini are constantly dredged up as bad people and used as a stick to beat anyone with right wing views over the head, despite the fact that many on the right of the political spectrum are equally horrified by both of those people and their actions

This is a good thing. People who situate themselves on the right should not be afraid to deconstruct the elements of their particular ideology down to their basic political assumptions and see how those components, arranged in particular ways, can produce calamity.

The same is also and equally true of the left. When revolutionary politics is conceptualized as a kind of organic end-unto-itself, as you see in various one-party Communist states in great relief, then it doesn't take too much of a leap in rhetoric to take the position that the People's Revolution must also be protected from the people themselves. This is how you get the Reign of Terror, where peasants and urban workers - whose emancipation was the object-goal of the French Revolution - were subject to mass executions for "anti-revolutionary crimes" like evading conscription and hoarding food. This is how you get Stalinism and North Korean Juche.

[Hammerfest]

Except having the word "socialism" in it doesn't make it magically socialism.

You're right in that, in the Nazis case, what "magically made them socialists" were things like nationalizing privately-owned businesses and assets, including the German health care system... among other things.

[Kalis]

Ever heard about Anarcho-communism?

That sounds like a label some first year student would attach to themselves in order to try and rebel against their middle class upbringing.

"Hi, my name's Trevor. I'm an anarcho-communist from St Albans."

[Mehrunes]

The only people who think otherwise are alt-right shills.

Mayhem is an alt-right shill? Damn, I learn amazing things about other posters from you and Batman.

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

And yet the concept of welfare originates from Christian democrats and the first European country to introduce it in its modern incarnation was German Empire under Bismarck. Staples of left wing right there.

OP is mixing Left/Right with Authoritarian/Libertarian.

Nazi were Center Authoritarian, not right nor left. They also weren't fascist. Please go read the definition of fascist.

How about you don't use Wikipedia selectively? The page on Nazism says it's considered far-right movement by most scholars. Also, Nazism originates from fascism and uses it as a basis. It didn't even change all that much in terms on non-ideological aspects.

Fascism is a derivation of socialism.
Its a 'third way' - So no, its either left wing, or somewhere in the undefinable centre.

Just because Nazis thought themselves to be something outside of the spectrum doesn't make it the truth. Do third way Democrats escape the spectrum as well?

"No, your side were Nazis"
"No, your guys were the Nazis!"

This is easily the saddest and least productive thing I've seen around here.

How is properly calling things or correcting people who are wrong (some deliberately, apparently) sad? And what about people like Kalis who are right wing and are able to admit it's his side that Nazis were on?

[gyrados]

wasnt the term nazi actually a slur towards the socialist party ?

[Ehrenpanzer]

Nazis were fascist aka authoritarian nationalist. And they also were socialists, not capitalists. There was pretty much nothing capitalist about nazism.

Left wing = socialism, right wing = capitalism

So, nazis were left wing.

If you can't handle that truth, go have your temper tantrum somewhere else.

/thread

For all intents and purposes, it is meaningless to circle argue whether Nazis were Left or Right. Since in today's politics anything anyone doesn't agree with on both sides of the fence is immediately screamed at for being Nazi/Fascist inspired.

For example:

-Support a broader base of government funded healthcare? = Socialist Nazi trying to run Death Panels
-Support more gun regulations? = You are just like the Nazis, trying to disarm the population so they cant rise against you
-Support less government funded healthcare? = Oh you are just a Fascist Nazi who wants to channel all the money into war and the 1%
-Support less gun regulations? = You are a Neo-Nazi thug who doesnt care about lives only increasing your own power.

Racial slurs and blaming white/black/latino are usually also included.

[Mehrunes]

And if you only read a little bit further...
Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational.[39] A number of historians regard fascism as either a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things.[40][41] Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who drew upon left-wing and right-wing political views.

Except this part doesn't negate what Orbitus quoted at all. Just because they drew from both doesn't mean the end result can't be far right.

[Venant]

You're right in that, in the Nazis case, what "magically made them socialists" were things like nationalizing privately-owned businesses and assets, including the German health care system... among other things.

I don't get why people are saying that populism and nationalism are only associated with the 'right wing'.

The Nazis actually caused massive economic problems for themselves through attempting to have the state control the free market. They also engaged in extreme ethnic identity politics.

Sounds pretty similar to the modern authoritarian left.

[Mehrunes]

Socialism and national socialism are two completely different ideologies.

Are you telling me North Korea isn't a democracy? Preposterous, it says Democratic right in their name!

[Mad_Murdock]

I'm a racist misogynistic homophobic homosexual SJW terrorist sympathizer liberal conservative gay mafia member according to MMOC

Please use commas, I can't tell if you're supposed to be homophoic or homosexual or you're a homophobic homosexual. Are you a conservative gay? or a Gay mafia member?

I only ask for this, because I'm sure you don't want to be mislabeled

[Lumineus]

Fascism is counter-revolutionary, in the sense that Joseph de Maistre defined counter-revolutions as "not ... a reverse revolution, but the reverse of the Revolution" - and as such is explicitly right-wing. It is the assertion of a particular hierarchy, based on national identity, in the context of that hierarchy's absence. That absence is universally blamed on forces and institutions of left-wing social corruption; Marxists, foreigners, Jews, etc. Only when those forces are overthrown and defeated can that hierarchy assert itself once again, and democratic politics is conceptualized as itself a corruptive force that stands in opposition to fascist goals. Thus fascism is autocratic in means.

It is nationalist in that it situates the protection of the national identity from these left-wing forces as the primary obligation of state power. It is socialist in that it works to mobilize the body politic into a single cohesive unit for the sole purpose of achieving this end. It is not conservative, in that it rejects orthodox traditionalism in favor of revolutionary traditionalism, but it is still very much right-wing.

Fascism is about expanding government power and control of services ("the trains on time!") for the primary purpose of improving efficiency of operations, which is a strictly socialist (and thus, left-wing) principle, and actually takes this a step further by including non-service business where applicable (Volkswagen, to give an example), but not to a totalitarian degree, as in communism. The TARP program established to bail out US banks and automakers, for example, was fascist in nature. Fascism is, further, about taking control of the education system and turning it into an arm of the ruling party. Again, focus on state-sponsored curriculum control is a left-wing policy. Racially and ethnically motivated action in the name of supposed national interests is not the sole purview of the right wing, and uh... characterizing the hypothetical "Zionist oligarchy of Jewish bankers Illuminati" boogeyman espoused by certain fascist countries as a left-wing organization is quite humorous.

[Deleted]

I don't get why people are saying that populism and nationalism are only associated with the 'right wing'.

The Nazis actually caused massive economic problems for themselves through attempting to have the state control the free market, with the support of bankers and german industrialists. They also engaged in extreme nationalism and ethnic identity politics.

Sounds pretty similar to the authoritarism, right wing of the political spectrum.

Fixed. Nationalism and support from the elites is what made the NSDAP a right wing party.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you telling me North Korea isn't a democracy? Preposterous, it says Democratic right in their name!

It's the most democratic country in the world! All North Koreans can choose between following the "elected" leader or death. See, democracy.

[Mehrunes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

"Hitler's views on economics, beyond his early belief that the economy was of secondary importance, are a matter of debate. On the one hand, he proclaimed in one of his speeches that "we are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system",^[16] "

I mean, at least try to pretend this argument isn't dishonest as fuck and edit out "on the one hand" if you're going to quote only one side of it.

promoted state run education, confiscation of guns, sorting people based on religion or skin color, and attacking people that disagree with their worldview

all leftist practices

the nazis were leftist

State run education started in Germany when it was still Kingdom of Prussia, an absolutist monarchy. The apotheosis of left wing /s Confiscation of guns? Part of Australian gun control reform. Instigated by right wing government. The last two can be observed on literally all spots of the spectrum.

[Lumineus]

Just because current-day liberals are guilty over nationalism doesn't retroactively make it exclusive to right-wing governments either. USSR was possibly the most nationalistic state ever.

[Deleted]

USSR was possibly the most nationalistic state ever.

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. USSR was the living representation of internationalism.