Is this considered a scam or not?

[Yoshimiko]

You write no contract and in-game currency aint real currency. You could pretty much have left instantly as he gave you the money and Blizzard would have a hard time doing anything about it.

No they wouldn't and this WOULD slam you with a ban and he would get his gold back. You would have 2 strikes and whatever 2 tiers above your ban is in ban time. First timer would get a week, second would see a month, third would either be perma or 6 months.

Blizzard is VERY strict on scamming. If you made an agreement and you failed to honor it and did nothing to rectify it, you will be HEAVILY punished.

As for OP: If everything you said is completely true, I do not think you made any mistakes. That being said, If you're pulling sub-600kish dps, I would say in the future don't offer to 'carry'. If I were paying for a carry, I would fully expect to be able to afk and still make whatever our agreement was. That is, after all, why I would be paying.

[rad586]

Half the gold is not enough. If there is no customer satisfaction, then all the gold should be returned.

Even though he might get away with it in the eyes of Blizzard cause TECHNICALLY he didn't scam him, we all know that the buyer wanted a timed run and that was what he really paid for. OP seem to justify his actions because he think he deserve the gold for his time. Even though the buyer might have said he buy his time and tank service, we all know, including OP, that the buyer wanted a timed run. We all know that, and even though it might not be an "illegal scam" it's a scam in in another sense, because, as I said 3 times, he KNEW what the buyer wanted and failed to deliver.

A decent person gives the gold back if the customer is not satisfied, even if there are uncertainties (can't spell that word lol) or misunderstandings.

Here is another example:

Guy A is looking for someone to boost him through a dungeon. He doesn't say what he want in there but he want a run there to kill Boss Z.
Guy B says he can help him in return for some gold.
Guy A is happy about it and pays Guy B.
They run the instance and kill Boss Z.
After he is dead, Guy A gets a bit frustrated. He didn't get the achievement that he wanted from the boss. He explain to Guy B that it was the reason he went in there. Guy B just zerged it cause he though Guy A wanted the kill and nothing more.
Guy A ask for the gold back as he didn't get what he wanted.

Now, in this example, Guy B can do two things.
1. Give the gold back because it was a misunderstanding and Guy A didn't get what he wanted.
2. Say "no you didn't specify what you wanted".

What to do?

To me, option 1 is the only decent thing to do. Sure there was a misunderstanding, sure there was lack in communication. But Guy A should not have to pay for something he didn't want or need. If Guy B have ANY decensy he give all the gold back. Blizzard can't force him, because there is no written proof. But sometimes doing the right thing goes beyond paragraphs and contracts.

You're abit overzealous in defending the buyer.

OP did what he was asked to and paid for - tank the instance.

Who was the one that failed ? The DPS who had no connection to the OP.

OP was kind enough to offer half the gold (Even though he did what he was paid for) or re-run the instance. Instead of accepting the terms, the buyer went on a rampage demanding ALL the gold back.

Are you the kind of person who would ask the plumber for a refund because the IT guy who came at the same time blew up your PC ?

[Raelbo]

Half the gold is not enough. If there is no customer satisfaction, then all the gold should be returned.

Bullshit. The guy upheld his end of the bargain, spent his gold on flasks, potions and food, and wasted his time and effort. This particular "customer" is dissatisfied because he's a retard and the OP should not be punished for that.

Even though he might get away with it in the eyes of Blizzard cause TECHNICALLY he didn't scam him,

No. He will "get away with it" because Blizzard will recognise that not only did he not technically scam him, but he didn't even do anything wrong in any sense of the word. The only person who deserves censure by Blizzard is the buyer, not because he's a retard (which TECHNICALLY isn't a punishable offence) but because he was abusive towards the people he thought had done him wrong.

we all know that the buyer wanted a timed run and that was what he really paid for.

I think we all can (including the OP) acknowledge that the buyer wanted a timed run. He might even have expected it in his own mind. But nothing about this transaction suggests that he had any right to expect a guarantee thereof or that the people doing the boosting were aware that their payment was contingent on a successful timed run.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that the OP's understanding of the transaction is that he was being paid for his "best effort" in getting a timed run. I don't believe it's in any way reasonable to expect him to guarantee the timed run given the fact that 4/5 of the party members were strangers.

OP seem to justify his actions because he think he deserve the gold for his time.

Time is money friend, as our goblin allies say. Does the OP not deserve compensation? What about the gold he spent on Flasks, potions and food?

Even though the buyer might have said he buy his time and tank service, we all know, including OP, that the buyer wanted a timed run.

There is a difference between wanting something and being entitled to it. The buyer was entitled to the tank's *best effort*. If the tank delivered as much, that is all he can be expected to do. It's not the OP's fault that the other 80% of the group messed everything up. The real blame lies with the buyer who took it upon himself to take responsibility for assembling and leading the group.

We all know that, and even though it might not be an "illegal scam" it's a scam in in another sense, because, as I said 3 times, he KNEW what the buyer wanted and failed to deliver.

Yes I know you've said multiple time that the tank "KNEW what the buyer wanted and failed to deliver". And I, and others, have said even more times that it is IRRELEVANT, because, simply put, what the buyer wanted was not within the tank's ability to deliver. By your logic your logic, should the OP have refunded the buyer if there was no legendary in the caches at the end? I mean we all KNOW that the buyer also wanted a legendary out of it (I mean, really, who doesn't want a legendary from any run?). It's no more reasonable to hold the tank responsible for the failed timed run than it is to blame him for the OP not getting the legendary he wanted, because it's not within his power to deliver that. What was in the tank's power to deliver was to put in 1/5 of the total effort required to meet the timer. You cannot expect him to compensate for the inadequacies of the other 4 group members.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

A decent person gives the gold back if the customer is not satisfied, even if there are uncertainties (can't spell that word lol) or misunderstandings.

A decent person does his best to ensure a fair outcome for the buyer. If the failed run was the tank's fault, then sure, a decent person would give the gold back. But that doesn't seem to be the case (sure, the OP could be lying about the details of what happened, but really, we can only discuss a hypothetical scenario described by the OP).

IMO, the offer of the OP to either run another instance, or refund 50% was already far more than anyone can reasonably expected to offer, which means he is a decent person. The indecent person here is the buyer who acted like a petulant, spoilt brat, demanding far more than he was entitled to and expecting the rest of the group to pander to his every whim. Clearly he pissed off the rest of the group, and his little abusive tirade at the OP when didn't get his own way just proves that he is indeed the problem and actually got his just deserts.

[Deleted]

Half the gold is not enough. If there is no customer satisfaction, then all the gold should be returned.

Even though he might get away with it in the eyes of Blizzard cause TECHNICALLY he didn't scam him, we all know that the buyer wanted a timed run and that was what he really paid for. OP seem to justify his actions because he think he deserve the gold for his time. Even though the buyer might have said he buy his time and tank service, we all know, including OP, that the buyer wanted a timed run. We all know that, and even though it might not be an "illegal scam" it's a scam in in another sense, because, as I said 3 times, he KNEW what the buyer wanted and failed to deliver.

A decent person gives the gold back if the customer is not satisfied, even if there are uncertainties (can't spell that word lol) or misunderstandings.

Here is another example:

Guy A is looking for someone to boost him through a dungeon. He doesn't say what he want in there but he want a run there to kill Boss Z.
Guy B says he can help him in return for some gold.
Guy A is happy about it and pays Guy B.
They run the instance and kill Boss Z.
After he is dead, Guy A gets a bit frustrated. He didn't get the achievement that he wanted from the boss. He explain to Guy B that it was the reason he went in there. Guy B just zerged it cause he though Guy A wanted the kill and nothing more.
Guy A ask for the gold back as he didn't get what he wanted.

Now, in this example, Guy B can do two things.
1. Give the gold back because it was a misunderstanding and Guy A didn't get what he wanted.
2. Say "no you didn't specify what you wanted".

What to do?

To me, option 1 is the only decent thing to do. Sure there was a misunderstanding, sure there was lack in communication. But Guy A should not have to pay for something he didn't want or need. If Guy B have ANY decensy he give all the gold back. Blizzard can't force him, because there is no written proof. But sometimes doing the right thing goes beyond paragraphs and contracts.

What kind of bullshit logic is this? Obviously the fuckin buyer didn't get what he wanted, but guess what the booster didn't either and also wasted his precious time for this shit. You completely disregard one party of this supposed trade agreement and only base your logic on the needs of one party. He was fair enough to offer half of the money back. He didn't accept AND started to call him names. Too bad, fuck him, take all the money and leave. It's as simple as that. If you fail to put up an somewhat watertight agreement beforehand and don't accept someones lenient offer to split the loss, you can sincerely just go fuck yourself with a pogo-stick. 100% deserved.

[Deleted]

there's something wrong with this picture, maybe illusion:
i think they (op and person he talks about) both are mentally borderline scammed by blizzard - making them think it's FUN to be in this kind of content and situation.
people should help each other free inside computer game and there should not be the point when person feels he needs to buy a boost. I don't remember there being so much boosting (for gold) before - Mop, Cata etc. it all started in wod and it's kind of common now, while it was resented before.

[Battlebeard]

Bullshit. The guy upheld his end of the bargain, spent his gold on flasks, potions and food, and wasted his time and effort. This particular "customer" is dissatisfied because he's a retard and the OP should not be punished for that.



No. He will "get away with it" because Blizzard will recognise that not only did he not technically scam him, but he didn't even do anything wrong in any sense of the word. The only person who deserves censure by Blizzard is the buyer, not because he's a retard (which TECHNICALLY isn't a punishable offence) but because he was abusive towards the people he thought had done him wrong.



I think we all can (including the OP) acknowledge that the buyer wanted a timed run. He might even have expected it in his own mind. But nothing about this transaction suggests that he had any right to expect a guarantee thereof or that the people doing the boosting were aware that their payment was contingent on a successful timed run.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that the OP's understanding of the transaction is that he was being paid for his "best effort" in getting a timed run. I don't believe it's in any way reasonable to expect him to guarantee the timed run given the fact that 4/5 of the party members were strangers.



Time is money friend, as our goblin allies say. Does the OP not deserve compensation? What about the gold he spent on Flasks, potions and food?



There is a difference between wanting something and being entitled to it. The buyer was entitled to the tank's *best effort*. If the tank delivered as much, that is all he can be expected to do. It's not the OP's fault that the other 80% of the group messed everything up. The real blame lies with the buyer who took it upon himself to take responsibility for assembling and leading the group.



Yes I know you've said multiple time that the tank "KNEW what the buyer wanted and failed to deliver". And I, and others, have said even more times that it is IRRELEVANT, because, simply put, what the buyer wanted was not within the tank's ability to deliver. By your logic your logic, should the OP have refunded the buyer if there was no legendary in the caches at the end? I mean we all KNOW that the buyer also wanted a legendary out of it (I mean, really, who doesn't want a legendary from any run?). It's no more reasonable to hold the tank responsible for the failed timed run than it is to blame him for the OP not getting the legendary he wanted, because it's not within his power to deliver that. What was in the tank's power to deliver was to put in 1/5 of the total effort required to meet the timer. You cannot expect him to compensate for the inadequacies of the other 4 group members.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.



A decent person does his best to ensure a fair outcome for the buyer. If the failed run was the tank's fault, then sure, a decent person would give the gold back. But that doesn't seem to be the case (sure, the OP could be lying about the details of what happened, but really, we can only discuss a hypothetical scenario described by the OP).

IMO, the offer of the OP to either run another instance, or refund 50% was already far more than anyone can reasonably expected to offer, which means he is a decent person. The indecent person here is the buyer who acted like a petulant, spoilt brat, demanding far more than he was entitled to and expecting the rest of the group to pander to his every whim. Clearly he pissed off the rest of the group, and his little abusive tirade at the OP when didn't get his own way just proves that he is indeed the problem and actually got his just deserts.

I DO understand what you mean, I just strongly disagree. So I guess we won't get much further here.

To me, if the buyer is disatisfied, for ANY reason, the gold should be refunded, regardless of what is technically said before the run. To me, that is decensy.

If I buy something, I expect to get exactly what I want for my gold. Or else I want it back.
If I sell something, I make sure the buyer get exactly what he/she wants, if not, I give back every gold coin.

To me it's as simple as that. I don't want to be a paragraph rider, who is hooked on every written. Misunderstandings happen and I will always, ALWAYS side with the buyer and never the seller. Gold should have the power, the buyer is always right if you ask me.

[Raelbo]

And since we do not know the buyer's side (ie, did he ask ? did he picked up a boost key or was he mistaken ? Is the OP lying ? did the OP specify no reimbursement ?), it's pretty hard to determine who is at fault, but that does not mean we can't say what we find acceptable or not when people are selling such services.

The OP has given a sufficient account of his side of the story in subsequent posts. Of course we have no way of verifying that his story is accurate or truthful, but that actually doesn't matter because one can just as easily treat this debate as being for a hypothetical scenario as a real one. I see little point in debating scenarios in which the OP is being dishonest because assuming that he is being dishonest pretty much implies he is scamming. The only hypothetical scenario worth discussing is therefore IMO is the one described by the OP

[Donald Hellscream]

While doing a mythic+ dungeon implies doing it on time as that is the point, as long as he didn't actually state that the terms were doing it on time, no it would not be considered a scam as he didn't make terms clear beforehand.

[FelPlague]

I'm kinda baffled that some people are actually defending the buyer here. This is not a premade group carrying someone. It's a bunch of randoms who don't know each other being paid to run someone. How is it the OP's fault that the buyer hired other incompetent runners? Why is it okay for the buyer to be able to waste OP's free time?

The OP did his job. He joined the group and according to him, he performed his role. He was NOT paid to beat a timer on his own. He was paid to waste his time for the sake of another and perform his specific role, both of which happened.

He even offered to give half back or a re-run, which is way more than generous.

And some of these comparisons you guys are making are downright stupid. You're comparing the job of 1 (or 1 organization) to his situation which was the job of many. It's like some of you are under the idea that you're entitled to waste people's free time.

i doudt the op is being trurthful on that, as he says "the guy asks us to rerun it" then he says "i offered to rerun it but he said no"

- - - Updated - - -

so there is a few issues here that we need to know to make a judgment overall


1. did you guys all flask/food/pot? this would make abit more sense as it would be gold+time instead of just time
2. how much does this "guy" pay? if he paid something like 5k per person, thats a very good amount for like 10 mins of work but if it failed and took 40 minutes i may not see it worth it... or did he pay 50k and you guys thought "holy shit hes rich" when really hes paying 50k because he knows you may fail a time or two and wants you guys to stay the full time
3. also the buyyer is abit of an idiot, in a world like this he should either
A. mention that you must complete it on time, that way they will know, and if they leave after you fail once a gm may be able to help
B. pay half or 1/4 at the start, then the rest at the end

[dakalro]

And this is why you always buy your runs from a reputable vendor. Speaking of which, I'm selling +15 in time runs for 500k to anyone interested...

OT: There's already cheaper (granted there was a massive discount for ilvl and experience of the carried )
And I've heard of a lot more expensive.

[Raelbo]

To me, if the buyer is disatisfied, for ANY reason, the gold should be refunded, regardless of what is technically said before the run. To me, that is decensy.

You're welcome to hold any personal definitions of the word "decency" you want, but don't expect others to understand what you mean or agree with you when you deviate from the actual literal meaning.

behaviour that is good, moral, and acceptable in society

I cannot see how pandering to a buyer who is dissatisfied for ANY reason is a requirement of good, moral or acceptable behaviour. Being decent doesn't mean bending over and taking it up the proverbial posterior. It means seeking a fair and reasonable outcome. If the buyer is not attempting to be fair or reasonable in his demands, then the it is no longer a requirement to satisfy those demands in order to be decent.

If I buy something, I expect to get exactly what I want for my gold. Or else I want it back.

Then realise it's up to you to ensure that the seller is aware of what it is you want. If you don't do that then they might end up wasting their time, money and effort trying to give you what they think they owe to you, and land up with nothing. Which is, from you, the opposite of decency.

If I sell something, I make sure the buyer get exactly what he/she wants, if not, I give back every gold coin.

Firstly, there is a difference between what someone wants, and what someone is entitled to expect. If you give me $20K and tell me to buy you a nice new car, don't get upset with me when I deliver a Honda Civic instead of a Ferrari. You will lose your deposit.

When two people engage in transaction, it's often likely that certain reasonable assumptions will be made about what is acceptable and not acceptable. When one party starts to make unreasonable assumptions (as is the case with the buyer in this story) then it is only decent that they accept responsibility for the failed transaction and compensate the other party (in this case the OP for his loss of time and gold).

To me it's as simple as that. I don't want to be a paragraph rider, who is hooked on every written. Misunderstandings happen and I will always, ALWAYS side with the buyer and never the seller. Gold should have the power, the buyer is always right if you ask me.

Yes I get that. You have an immutable rule that the buyer is ALWAYS right and you're trying to apply that principle to this scenario without actually thinking about the context. To my mind that is silly, especially when you conflate this issue with what is "decent".

The principle of "the customer is always right" is about good business practices. It has nothing at all to do with decency, morals or ethics. Given that this hypothetical discussion is about two random people who agreed to a transaction rather than about a business dealing with a bunch of customers, I think you're trying to apply the wrong principle to the argument.

[Battlebeard]

When two people engage in transaction, it's often likely that certain reasonable assumptions will be made about what is acceptable and not acceptable. When one party starts to make unreasonable assumptions (as is the case with the buyer in this story) then it is only decent that they accept responsibility for the failed transaction and compensate the other party (in this case the OP for his loss of time and gold).

The thing is, it's not an unreasonable assumption.

If I say like this "WTB Boost in Arena" then it is IMPLIED that I obviously want a win. WHY would I pay someone to just run some arena with me.

This is where we disagree, cause it seems to you, that unless you specify every single detail, the seller can do anything and still charge him. Some things are so obvious, that they should not have to be written. OF COURSE I want an arena WIN. OF COURSE the buyer in this case wanted a timed run.

Unless you call OP extremely stupid, he knew this, and therefore he was a douchebag for not giving the gold back.

If you are gonna have to mention every single detail of a simple trade, you will end up having to write a big essay, calculating every possible scenario. I guess gold make people greedy, it's nature I guess, but why can't we be above that...

[Deleted]

If he didin't specify that he was paying for a 1/2/3-chest run, and just that he'd pay for you to do his key, i'd keep the gold.
It's not your fault that the others left...

[Deleted]

there's something wrong with this picture, maybe illusion:
i think they (op and person he talks about) both are mentally borderline scammed by blizzard - making them think it's FUN to be in this kind of content and situation.
people should help each other free inside computer game and there should not be the point when person feels he needs to buy a boost. I don't remember there being so much boosting (for gold) before - Mop, Cata etc. it all started in wod and it's kind of common now, while it was resented before.

1. You could know how to play your class, have knowledge of dungeons and their affixes, join an active guild, develop connections with other players who are interested in same content as you.
2. You could buy a boost.

Some people take the easy way out. It was like that since vanilla.

If I buy something, I expect to get exactly what I want for my gold. Or else I want it back.

The guy bought a tank for 1 dungeon. He didn't buy a boost from 4 players, he bought a tank to tank his M+ run. The buyer got exactly what he wanted.
You should reread what OP wrote.

[Snackpack]

The thing is, it's not an unreasonable assumption.

If I say like this "WTB Boost in Arena" then it is IMPLIED that I obviously want a win. WHY would I pay someone to just run some arena with me.

This is where we disagree, cause it seems to you, that unless you specify every single detail, the seller can do anything and still charge him. Some things are so obvious, that they should not have to be written. OF COURSE I want an arena WIN. OF COURSE the buyer in this case wanted a timed run.

Unless you call OP extremely stupid, he knew this, and therefore he was a douchebag for not giving the gold back.

If you are gonna have to mention every single detail of a simple trade, you will end up having to write a big essay, calculating every possible scenario. I guess gold make people greedy, it's nature I guess, but why can't we be above that...

The thing is the buyer wasn't buying a boost. A boost is the implication that the buyer will be carried by a group or person (arena). A tank cannot carry a high level mythic on their own.

OP stated the buyer posted in Trade Chat "Lf people to do [my mythic keystone]. Paying x gold if you tank it, x gold if you heal it, x gold if you dps it. Whisper class and ilvl. Paying before the dungeon." If the payment of gold was only contingent on beating the timer, the buyer should have simply paid them afterwards, if they did in fact beat the timer.

[Battlebeard]

The thing is the buyer wasn't buying a boost. A boost is the implication that the buyer will be carried by a group or person (arena). A tank cannot carry a high level mythic on their own.

OP stated the buyer posted in Trade Chat "Lf people to do [my mythic keystone]. Paying x gold if you tank it, x gold if you heal it, x gold if you dps it. Whisper class and ilvl. Paying before the dungeon." If the payment of gold was only contingent on beating the timer, the buyer should have simply paid them afterwards, if they did in fact beat the timer.

Not only the tank, but everone should have paid him back. And yes, he should have paid afterwards but it is extremely hard to find people who do runs without gold up front.

[Raelbo]

The thing is, it's not an unreasonable assumption.

The thing is, it is.

If I say like this "WTB Boost in Arena" then it is IMPLIED that I obviously want a win. WHY would I pay someone to just run some arena with me.

Yes of course, but you're trying to compare a very different service to what the OP described on a number of levels.

• Typically when people advertise that they want to buy arena boosts, they'll state how much they are willing to pay per win. In this case the buyer stated what he is prepared for someone to do the instance.
• You get nothing from an arena loss, you still get a chest from a "failed" M+ plus the chest at the end of the week
• It's not a big time or gold investment to lose one arena. It is far more to join a M+. It takes a lot longer and consumables can be expensive.
• When you're one person in a M+ team, you cannot take responsibility for 4 other strangers who are critical to the success of the endeavour.
• If you join a M+ group you have to stay to the end. In arena you can bail at any time. There is no real committment. The longer you stay the more wins you get, the more you profit.

This is where we disagree, cause it seems to you, that unless you specify every single detail, the seller can do anything and still charge him.

Not at all and honestly I cannot understand how you would conclude such a ridiculous assertion given all that I have written. My argument is that when pertinent details are not properly specified then one has to find a reasonable solution based on fairness and decency. What we disagree on is what constitutes fair and decent behaviour.

Some things are so obvious, that they should not have to be written. OF COURSE I want an arena WIN. OF COURSE the buyer in this case wanted a timed run.

No shit. I have acknowledged this several times and told you that it is irrelevant what he wanted because it was not, given the context of the scenario, a reasonable expectation.

Just as obvious as it is to everyone that the OP must have known that buyer wanted a successful timed run, it should too be obvious to everyone that the buyer must have known that what he was asking for was never going to be a guarantee and as such he should have accepted the risk of a failed run.

Unless you call OP extremely stupid, he knew this, and therefore he was a douchebag for not giving the gold back.

No. And if you've paid any attention to what I have been writing, you'd understand that he is not a douchebag because he upheld his end of the bargain. Not only that but he even offered a more than fair compromise which the buyer rejected. The buyer is a douchebag for expecting other people to carry the cost of what was clearly his fuckup. He hired a bunch of random strangers to help him, and when they failed he expected them to compensate him. This problem is a project management failure, not a private contractor failure, and project manager was the buyer.

If you are gonna have to mention every single detail of a simple trade, you will end up having to write a big essay, calculating every possible scenario. I guess gold make people greedy, it's nature I guess, but why can't we be above that...

I agree entirely with this principle, and given a different scenario I might agree that the OP should have given the gold back. But given the hypothetical scenario presented by the OP, it is pretty obvious to me that the OP was more than fair and decent.

[Deleted]

It's not a scam, and wouldn't be considered as such; but it is very unprofessional. If you take someone's gold, then you better be able to finish it in time.

[Katchii]

All comes down to buyer beware honestly, but the entire point of running Mythic+ is to try and beat the timer. It's like hiring a cab to take you to the airport, but they took the wrong roads and got lost and you ended up late for you flight.... you still need to pay them, but the taxi didn't come close to fulfilling their implied end of the bargain.

[Axelond]

If he bought a +15 for the achievement you didn't get him the achievement you failed the boost and you should give him his gold back. If it was something like a +12 for the class order chest and loot it doesn't matter if it was in time or not.