Broken Isles Pathfinder, Part Two

[Casthiel]

It's been 5 months since launch and i've encountered enemy players 5 or 6 times total, and i play a lot. World pvp simply doesnt exist cause there are no rewards for that. Flying won't hurt what isn't happening in the first place.

The ONLY reason to delay flying this long is to make everything that you do in game take longer, making the 'content' last longer.
They give players less and that takes longer to get done. It is that simple.


It is much more immersing to get on my flying mount and get from wq A to wq B myself then to whistle, get on a FP and go check websites while i wait.

[Elim Garak]

It's pretty obvious why they delay flight - with flight all the available WQ on your map will be done within 30 minutes, including all world bosses.

Remember rare sweeps on TI? Dozens of players riding from rare to rare. Is ship up yet? Is Houlon? World Boss? SHARK IS 3 O CLOCK!!! 30 minutes and you are done for the day. And that was on ground mounts. Imagine that on flying mounts in Broken Isles.

As TI has shown it's not a problem of flying - it's a problem of content design.

[SirCowdog]

It's pretty obvious why they delay flight - with flight all the available WQ on your map will be done within 30 minutes, including all world bosses.

Which isn't even actually a problem, because WQs respawn at a static rate of 6 hours. Who cares how fast you clear them if you can't do any more for another 6 hours anyway??? In the long-term(and lets face it, WoW is paced on a monthly basis) it doesn't actually matter how quickly you clear WQs if you're taking anything less than 6 hours.

But here's the flip side to the equation: If you clear them quickly you can go do OTHER parts of the game! GOD! What a tragedy THAT would be, right!?

[Trapped]

It's been 5 months since launch and i've encountered enemy players 5 or 6 times total, and i play a lot. World pvp simply doesnt exist cause there are no rewards for that. Flying won't hurt what isn't happening in the first place.

The ONLY reason to delay flying this long is to make everything that you do in game take longer, making the 'content' last longer.
They give players less and that takes longer to get done. It is that simple.


It is much more immersing to get on my flying mount and get from wq A to wq B myself then to whistle, get on a FP and go check websites while i wait.

This exactly. I'm not even sure what started this whole movement of "OMG flying is ruining the game" in the first place. Like you said, the only issue that I see is World PvP and that is non-existent anymore. I remember the good old days when flying was a reward for reaching max level. Congratulations, you "beat" all the zones, here's your license, go enjoy it from the air.

I was fine with the Pathfinder system, its a good compromise between both sides of the flying debate. Waiting THIS long for it to unlock is just ridiculous, and an obvious attempt to drag out content just for the sake of dragging out content.

Like @Casthiel said, what is the difference between flying on your flying mounts, and using the whistle and FPing all over the place?

[Elim Garak]

Which isn't even actually a problem, because WQs respawn at a static rate of 6 hours. Who cares how fast you clear them if you can't do any more for another 6 hours anyway??? In the long-term(and lets face it, WoW is paced on a monthly basis) it doesn't actually matter how quickly you clear WQs if you're taking anything less than 6 hours.

But here's the flip side to the equation: If you clear them quickly you can go do OTHER parts of the game! GOD! What a tragedy THAT would be, right!?

Well someone at Blizzard sees it as a problem so they are basically fixing something that wasn't broken and we have Broken Isles now... they are truly broken

[SirCowdog]

This exactly. I'm not even sure what started this whole movement of "OMG flying is ruining the game" in the first place. Like you said, the only issue that I see is World PvP and that is non-existent anymore. I remember the good old days when flying was a reward for reaching max level. Congratulations, you "beat" all the zones, here's your license, go enjoy it from the air.

I was fine with the Pathfinder system, its a good compromise between both sides of the flying debate. Waiting THIS long for it to unlock is just ridiculous, and an obvious attempt to drag out content just for the sake of dragging out content.

Like @Casthiel said, what is the difference between flying on your flying mounts, and using the whistle and FPing all over the place?

What started the entire argument was someone at Blizzard getting the inspired idea that they could close pandora's box and create WoW expansions without flight. WoD was the result. Legion is the aftermath.

And do you really feel that Pathfinder is good? I mean, you're ok with not getting flight until you've already done everything that you'd otherwise use flight on?

[Kantoro]

The ONLY reason to delay flying this long is to make everything that you do in game take longer, making the 'content' last longer.
They give players less and that takes longer to get done. It is that simple.

/thread

This is the ONLY reason they withhold flying. Any other reason is just plain rationalization.

THE END.

[LaserChild9]

No, it's because you literally aren't bothering to look. You're in here spouting off questions that have been answered hundreds, if not thousands, of times. 3-4 post up from this one you quoted me with one example(daily and weekly lockouts on progression) and yet you STILL refuse to acknowledge it. That's not my fault. That's 100% on you.

I looked at the whole page that I quoted you on and I still have yet to see any evidence to show that flying has little impact on the completion of content. In addition to that you still have yet to give me a legitimate answer on this and you can slice any which way you want but at the end of the day, I asked a question and you cant seem to give me an answer.

You're attempting to paint flight as a catch-up mechanic. It was never that. In fact, it was the opposite, being something that couldn't be obtained UNTIL you hit level cap. It's only recently(WoD) that Blizzard attempted to change it. We have yet to see if that will remain true in Legion, since a lot depends on what content flight can be used on after it's unlocked.

It is a catchup mechanic, maybe not primarily, but it allows you to breeze through content at a much faster pace which is exactly what a catchup mechanic is supposed to do.

Oh good! So now we agree that under some circumstances things which skip content are acceptable. Now it's only a matter of designing flight so that it also falls under the realm of "acceptable convenience". This is actually grounds for a real discussion instead of the blanket removal of flying entirely under Pathfinder.

Are you saying you would be happy for flight to have a 5-10 minute cd? Because that's what the gliders, toys and whistle have that you seem to think are so convenient.

You need to understand, I never said that gating flight was bad. I've always said that PATHFINDER is bad. Locking flight behind everything that you would use flight on is terrible. But I'm all in favor of having flight be something that takes a lot of time and effort to get. Do you see the difference?

So if you have done everything that you would use flight for, why are you even here? Getting flight now is surely irrelevant as you have nothing you can use it for.

As for the second part about spamming trash mobs everywhere, that's a separate issue. And yes, it contributes to why restricting flight is bad, but it is also terrible in its own right. I mean, really....THAT'S the amazing ground design that everyone thinks is so valuable that players must be forced to experience it?

So what are your amazing suggestions for game design? Would you like them to just put 6 mobs in a zone so that its more convenient for you? (So long as they aren't by any herb or mining nodes though ofc because that would just be unfairly inconvenient)

Regardless, it boils down to this: As long as the open world content design is as uninspired as it is, players will seek ways to skip it. So, either acknowledge that and allow players to fly so they can at least be efficient about it, or make the ground content good enough so that players willingly choose to interact with it whether they have flying or not. Simply giving players no other option but to interact with the ground doesn't actually make it better. It just doesn't give them any choice in the matter.

Listen to what you are saying. Look at the things you have criticized, why do you even waste your time and money on a game that you think has awful design in one of the most important aspects, world design. You say that forcing players to do things doesn't make it better, but they dont force you, you do have a choice, if you don't like there are other MMO's out there, why don't you go play one?

If you really believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

You honestly believe that everytime they place a node they go "hmm, how many guards shall we put down for this one?". I come across plenty of herbs/mining nodes that are nowhere near any mobs. I think you have just gotten so paranoid that Blizzard is out to get you because they wont let you fly that you have started seeing patterns everywhere that just aren't there.

You want me to speculate on why wow is popular? Really? That's FAR beyond the scope of this argument.

No I want you to speculate on how a game with such awful design (in your opinion) has literally dominated the MMO market since its launch. Even at its lowest subscription numbers very few other MMO's have even come close.

The point I'm trying to make(which you appear to be missing) is that flight is something that people want to enjoy and have available in order to use when playing the game. Take anything else that people like about WoW and lock it behind something like pathfinder and see what the response would be. People would lose their minds! You're trying to split hairs and say that Flight is different because of reasons that amount to "I don't like flying so it would be ok".

No I didn't miss the point, it was just a stupid point. You compared flight to raids, pvp and dungeons, the core content for end game, if you cant see the idiocy of that comparison then that's on you. And as I have said before, I do like flying, but I don't require it to enjoy the game and I accept that I don't have a say in these decisions.

[SirCowdog]

I feel like I'm arguing with someone who never played the game before WoD. Is that's what's going on here? Is that where your perception of the game is clashing with mine?

I looked at the whole page that I quoted you on and I still have yet to see any evidence to show that flying has little impact on the completion of content. In addition to that you still have yet to give me a legitimate answer on this and you can slice any which way you want but at the end of the day, I asked a question and you cant seem to give me an answer.

I literally pointed to exactly how flight doesn't effect overall rate of content consumption because of static lockouts like the WQ respawn timer, and now you're telling me that's not an answer?

It is a catchup mechanic, maybe not primarily, but it allows you to breeze through content at a much faster pace which is exactly what a catchup mechanic is supposed to do.

So then I guess higher ilvl gear is also a catchup mechanic because it does what you described as well.


Keep in mind here that a new player who comes into Legion AFTER flight is available still has to grind out Pathfinder. And people who have been playing the whole time don't NEED to catch up because they're already current. So what is the purpose of a catchup mechanic if you only get it once you've already cleared everything that you'd use the catchup-mechanic on in the first place? How does that even make sense?!

Are you saying you would be happy for flight to have a 5-10 minute cd? Because that's what the gliders, toys and whistle have that you seem to think are so convenient.

No, what I'm saying is that it's grounds for discussion on what would make flying fall into the category of "acceptable convenience". I've already suggested a few different ways to do this, including setting flight and ground mount speed to exactly the same, or giving flight a number of slowly refilling charges to prevent the helicopter effect.

The actual details of how flying is changed in order to accomplish this is something we can get into if you want. But overall I do believe that the mechanics of flying, AND the environment flight is used in, need to change.

So if you have done everything that you would use flight for, why are you even here? Getting flight now is surely irrelevant as you have nothing you can use it for.

/facepalm

What do you think the nature of this entire argument is about in the first place, god dammit!? Can you really be that oblivious? Are are you trolling here?

So what are your amazing suggestions for game design? Would you like them to just put 6 mobs in a zone so that its more convenient for you? (So long as they aren't by any herb or mining nodes though ofc because that would just be unfairly inconvenient)

I saw nothing wrong with how the open world was designed previous to WoD. WotLK, Cata, and MoP zones with the addition of World Quests would be pretty damn good. I'd like it if they took it up a notch and added more use of vertical space and environmental effects. Adding more airships, floating islands, weather effects in the sky, and zones underground with lava and rockfalls and such.

But overall, just going back to a mix of flying and no-flying zones would be an improvement over WoD and Legion's zone design.

Listen to what you are saying. Look at the things you have criticized, why do you even waste your time and money on a game that you think has awful design in one of the most important aspects, world design. You say that forcing players to do things doesn't make it better, but they dont force you, you do have a choice, if you don't like there are other MMO's out there, why don't you go play one?

Wow...so original. You don't like the same things I like, so go somewhere else. Really? I've already explained why telling someone to just leave is a poor response to these issues.

Maybe I think that the open world of WoW was just fine when I was allowed to choose to approach it from the sky if I wanted. Maybe I think that integrating flight back into the open world design is only the first step to improving the game overall? Maybe I just believe that simply rolling over and letting Blizzard spew halfassed design is worth fighting against, even if I don't have immediate suggestions for how to go forward from there?

You honestly believe that everytime they place a node they go "hmm, how many guards shall we put down for this one?". I come across plenty of herbs/mining nodes that are nowhere near any mobs. I think you have just gotten so paranoid that Blizzard is out to get you because they wont let you fly that you have started seeing patterns everywhere that just aren't there.

Yes, I do think they place trash mobs spawn areas in and around areas that are also spawning gathering nodes and quest objectives. I also suspect that there's enough randomization involved that sometimes nodes will spawn in areas that aren't within aggro of an enemy. But, like I said, if you think Blizzard is NOT guarding such nodes with trash mobs then you clearly haven't been playing very long. And besides, if Blizzard WASN'T guarding quest objectives and gathering nodes in such a manner, then the argument that flying makes such content too easy becomes immaterial.

No I want you to speculate on how a game with such awful design (in your opinion) has literally dominated the MMO market since its launch. Even at its lowest subscription numbers very few other MMO's have even come close.

You're making the mistake of assuming that because I think the open world design is terrible that the entire game is terrible. Which it's not. But on to specifics:

Player loyalty and emotional investment are the lion's share of why WoW continues to be successfyl. The longer that people play WoW, the harder it is to give it up because of that. Also known as the "Sunk Cost Fallacy". You have to keep in mind that many people have been playing this game for over a decade now. They're so invested in it that they literally are unable to be objective about it. Logging in and playing has become habitual; part of their daily routine.

But in addition to that, WoW really is one of the best, highest quality products in the Genre. There really aren't any other MMOs out there which are able to compete on the same level as WoW. FFXIV does it, to a degree, by providing a different experience, and banking heavily on the "Final Fantasy" feeling of the game in the same way WoW banks on the "Warcraft" aspect. SWTOR does so to a lesser degree with the Star Wars brand, despite being little more than a WoW clone, mechanically speaking.

What else is there to compete directly with WoW? Nothing. GW2 and TERA are arguably in a different genre due to being an action-based game that relies on actual player reflexes instead of raw gear(they definitely draw from a different playerbase). Wildstar crashed and burned. Rift is a straight up lesser product in all ways. What else is there for MMORPGS? ESO? Don't make me laugh. It's a cheaper version of GW2 with an elder scrolls re-skin. A host of second-rate F2P games?

You ask why WoW is so successful? It's because there really isn't much competition. There are no real replacements for WoW. And I think that Blizzard is able to get away with a LOT because of that. That doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. WoD showed us just how badly it's possible to screw up WoW and still stay on top. So when you tell someone to go play something else, what exactly are they going to play to get the same experience as WoW? Why don't you tell me that?

[LaserChild9]

Let me start by saying that I totally agree with the Pathfinder concept. We SHOULD be exploring the world on the ground first and do some stuff to get flying back. It makes a lot of sense, since Blizz spends so much time creating the world and all that. What I totally disagree with, is the timeframe.
7.2 is too long for me to wait while also maintaining a subscription. Had it been in at 7.1 release, it would have been too early, even for me. That wouldn't have felt right. But now we're at 7.1.5 and there's still some months to go for 7.2 and even longer to achieve the final bit of Pathfinder. Had it been unlockable now, it would have been fine. I could convince myself to subscribe again. But I'm not going to pay for waiting for the possibility to unlock something that makes me enjoy the game again. I'll be back when flying is enabled. Until then.... No flying, no playing.

And this is how everyone should react to this. Nobody is forcing anyone to play a game that they don't like. The only reason I am currently subscribed is because a friend bought me some game time and asked me to level with him, if he had not done that I would have stayed unsubscribed until 7.2. Personally I have no issue with the waiting because I know that I am not gonna pay for a game I don't enjoy but each to their own.

And do you really feel that Pathfinder is good? I mean, you're ok with not getting flight until you've already done everything that you'd otherwise use flight on?

This is what I mean, you don't seem to be able to comprehend that some people don't have an issue with Pathfinder, you don't seem to believe that some people are quite happy to explore the world on the ground.

I feel like I'm arguing with someone who never played the game before WoD. Is that's what's going on here? Is that where your perception of the game is clashing with mine?

I started playing at the beginning of Wotlk.

I literally pointed to exactly how flight doesn't effect overall rate of content consumption because of static lockouts like the WQ respawn timer, and now you're telling me that's not an answer?

Other than the fact that with flying not only could you do WQ's a lot faster, you could actually do all of them in every lockout. I don't think Blizzard intended you to do all of them in every lockout all day every day. The amount of resources you would get increase the progress of artifact weapons, which once you are capped and geared is that not content consumed?

So then I guess higher ilvl gear is also a catchup mechanic because it does what you described as well.

Yes and no, you do the content to earn the gear though the gear does speed up repeatable content. You have to have some form of reward and gear is important in RPG's. But again, you cant compare gear to flying. A higher ilvl can help you move up a raid difficulty or a mythic+ level, it helps you progress, flying is not required to progress.

Keep in mind here that a new player who comes into Legion AFTER flight is available still has to grind out Pathfinder. And people who have been playing the whole time don't NEED to catch up because they're already current. So what is the purpose of a catchup mechanic if you only get it once you've already cleared everything that you'd use the catchup-mechanic on in the first place? How does that even make sense?!

That is why flight is not primarily a catchup mechanic, because its gated. Look at Cataclysm, you fly from the moment you logged in and the leveling experience was a blur.

No, what I'm saying is that it's grounds for discussion on what would make flying fall into the category of "acceptable convenience". I've already suggested a few different ways to do this, including setting flight and ground mount speed to exactly the same, or giving flight a number of slowly refilling charges to prevent the helicopter effect.

The actual details of how flying is changed in order to accomplish this is something we can get into if you want. But overall I do believe that the mechanics of flying, AND the environment flight is used in, need to change.

The only way I see to move forward with flying, the only thing that would reign it in would also make most people cry, and that is to have mobs that can dismount fliers with a long range. So archers/gunners on the ground or other air based mobs, that way if you fly you have to fly smart, if you want to avoid packs of mobs you have to try to avoid the ranged ones.

What do you think the nature of this entire argument is about in the first place, god dammit!? Can you really be that oblivious? Are are you trolling here?

Nope, not trolling, I honestly don't understand what you are arguing about so strongly if as far as you are concerned, what you are looking to gain is now pointless. What do you hope to achieve, Blizzard will do what they want and at the moment it's Pathfinder, I'm sure next expansion it will still be Pathfinder and probably the one after that. As you yourself have pointed out, Pathfinder was their compromise in WoD, do you really think they are gonna compromise further?

I saw nothing wrong with how the open world was designed previous to WoD. WotLK, Cata, and MoP zones with the addition of World Quests would be pretty damn good. I'd like it if they took it up a notch and added more use of vertical space and environmental effects. Adding more airships, floating islands, weather effects in the sky, and zones underground with lava and rockfalls and such.

But overall, just going back to a mix of flying and no-flying zones would be an improvement over WoD and Legion's zone design.

My problem with those zones, is while they were pretty cool, for the most part they were also fucking huge and took forever to cross without flying, IMO that's worse design than the current zones, at least they are traversable without flying. They were also fairly empty, which is kinda boring, but dont get me wrong, I enjoyed them none the less.

Wow...so original. You don't like the same things I like, so go somewhere else. Really? I've already explained why telling someone to just leave is a poor response to these issues.

That's not what I said at all. You literally criticized the shit out of the game, you have gone from one subject to another. If someone criticized everything about something that you had made or something that you really enjoyed you wouldn't suggest that maybe they seek their entertainment elsewhere?

Yes, I do think they place trash mobs spawn areas in and around areas that are also spawning gathering nodes and quest objectives. I also suspect that there's enough randomization involved that sometimes nodes will spawn in areas that aren't within aggro of an enemy. But, like I said, if you think Blizzard is NOT guarding such nodes with trash mobs then you clearly haven't been playing very long. And besides, if Blizzard WASN'T guarding quest objectives and gathering nodes in such a manner, then the argument that flying makes such content too easy becomes immaterial.

Quest items, ofc they are guarded, what sort of a quest doesn't involve killing some bad guys? Herbs though? No. there are plenty of nodes that are nowhere near a mob. Would you prefer that they just put all nodes in a small area with no mobs inside? Coz that feels like an immersive world where you just pop to the herb garden to do your farming right? I literally cant believe that you actually think they guard every single node.

You ask why WoW is so successful? It's because there really isn't much competition. There are no real replacements for WoW. And I think that Blizzard is able to get away with a LOT because of that. That doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. WoD showed us just how badly it's possible to screw up WoW and still stay on top. So when you tell someone to go play something else, what exactly are they going to play to get the same experience as WoW? Why don't you tell me that?

Ok, so there isn't really much competition, fair. The reason for that surely has to be superior design. Even the best out 5 bad products has to have superior design. You actually named quite a few competitors, fairly big names too, SWTOR- Bioware, ESO Bethesda/Zennimax, FFXIV - Square Enix, none of those companies are small developers, all are huge franchises with millions upon millions of fans yet none have toppled wow or even come close. Wildstar even has a huge chunk of wow's Original design team and even they couldn't reproduce wows success. They aren't going to play anything to get the same experience as wow because there's nothing out there like it. Yet you still criticize it.

[Dhrizzle]

The idea that guarding an herb or other gathering node with packs of irrelevant and trivial trash mobs is GOOD design is....I don't have a polite word for it. However, what I do know is that if there is a tool(whether it's flight or something else) that allows me to skip that bullshit, I'm going to use it. Why? Because that kind of content design doesn't have value. As I said before: It's not interesting. It's not immersive. It's not good.

The idea that you have to go out into the world and actually find your way around and fight enemies to gather resources isn't a bad one at all. I'd call it better design than your preference of being able to simply pick them up effort and risk free, you may as well go back to having an instanced mine or garden where you can gather everything you'd ever need.

You either completely missed the point, or are trying to redirect. Place PVP, raiding, or dungeonsbehind a pathfinder-like unlock. Or simply place them at a simple timed unlock a year into the expansion, then tell me that you'd really find it acceptable.

Open world content isn't gated behind Pathfinder, just a tool that makes it easier to complete. A better analogy would be a system that lets you solo raids, but it only becomes available for raids you have cleared normally and only after the gear dropped becomes irrelevant. Technically we already have a system like this (barring the need to clear the raid normally) but you generally have to wait an expansion or two down the line (so up to several years) before you can solo the raids.

And why does every single square inch of terrain have to be jam-packed with enemies? What is wrong with there being some places that are JUST scenery? Isn't the entire argument of the pro-ground people that the world is SUPPOSED to be amazing and well-crafted?

Stop using hyperbole as if it's a valid point. Every single square inch of terrain is not jam-packed with enemies, there are plenty of places you can stop without pulling aggro.

Which isn't even actually a problem, because WQs respawn at a static rate of 6 hours. Who cares how fast you clear them if you can't do any more for another 6 hours anyway??? In the long-term(and lets face it, WoW is paced on a monthly basis) it doesn't actually matter how quickly you clear WQs if you're taking anything less than 6 hours.

But here's the flip side to the equation: If you clear them quickly you can go do OTHER parts of the game! GOD! What a tragedy THAT would be, right!?

If you could clear all the WQs in half-an-hour with flying (which is probably an exaggeration, but we're at that wonderful stage of the expansion where pro-fliers start getting more hysterical, I expect Mafic will pop up at some point) the Blizz would nerf all the rewards so that you only earn as much for all the world quests as you currently do for the emissary (which only takes ~30 minutes barring incompetence at navigation and avoiding tree roots or mobs.)

Firstly this would severely hamper players you claim could "choose" to use ground mounts as they would be getting miniscule rewards for their time. It also means that players with more than 30 minutes to spare would be burning through all the available content in 30 minutes, leading to similar issues as WoD.

I'm sure for raiders or PvPers it would be great to get that pesky/irrelevant world content out of the way as quickly as possible so they could get on with their instanced content, but for those of us who focus on the open world (or at least, for me) the pacing and content is currently pretty good.

[SirCowdog]

And this is how everyone should react to this. Nobody is forcing anyone to play a game that they don't like.

Except when you return to the game you still have to complete pathfinder. Which is the game from the ground first before you can actually enjoy it from the air. /facepalm

This is what I mean, you don't seem to be able to comprehend that some people don't have an issue with Pathfinder, you don't seem to believe that some people are quite happy to explore the world on the ground.

I understand perfectly that some people like the ground game. What I did was ask him a question, not make an assumption. I wanted to confirm if he fully considered and understood what Pathfinder entailed.

Other than the fact that with flying not only could you do WQ's a lot faster, you could actually do all of them in every lockout. I don't think Blizzard intended you to do all of them in every lockout all day every day. The amount of resources you would get increase the progress of artifact weapons, which once you are capped and geared is that not content consumed?

Yes, and at EXACTLY the rate that Blizzard allowed by providing those same WQs. Unless your telling me that it's NOT possible to complete all WQs in 6 hours without flying? Otherwise you're now making an assumption about what Blizzard wants without any actual info to back it up. You're also assuming that just because a person had flying that they WOULD do them all every day. Is this the case now? Are all WQs being done just because they're there? And if someone WANTS to do all the WQs, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so?

Besides which, are you telling me that there aren't faster ways of gathering AP, such as with M+ spam? And the rate of progress during the initial stages of the expansion was limited by artifact research and the exponential cost of each higher level of the artifact.

Yes and no, you do the content to earn the gear though the gear does speed up repeatable content. You have to have some form of reward and gear is important in RPG's. But again, you cant compare gear to flying. A higher ilvl can help you move up a raid difficulty or a mythic+ level, it helps you progress, flying is not required to progress.

Flying was never part of raid progression outside of a few gimmicky encounters. Regardless, gear is simply one aspect of character progression. Movement through the game world is another core aspect of MANY rpgs as well. You start out on foot, then get maybe a sprint, then a slow mount, followed by a faster mount. Then later, an airship, or teleports, or something similar. This used to exist in the open world of WoW. It should be part of it again, which is why I also suggest that the mechanics of flying needed to change, and the environment it's used in as well.

That is why flight is not primarily a catchup mechanic, because its gated. Look at Cataclysm, you fly from the moment you logged in and the leveling experience was a blur.

So flight is a catchup mechanic, but NOT a catchup mechanic now? Make up your mind please.

I'm assuming you're referring to the leveling experience that was 80-85 content? I don't remember it being a blur at all. I actually really enjoyed the pace and flow of it. But then again, I'm a fan of flying in the first place and you appear not to be. So I can see where we might have differences on the subject.

The only way I see to move forward with flying, the only thing that would reign it in would also make most people cry, and that is to have mobs that can dismount fliers with a long range. So archers/gunners on the ground or other air based mobs, that way if you fly you have to fly smart, if you want to avoid packs of mobs you have to try to avoid the ranged ones.

Dismounting mobs are only one mechanic that could be used. Placing certain quest areas indoors is another. Using environmental hazards such as wind, snow, smoke, or fog to limit vision is another. Terrain such as thick jungles and trees is yet another. Patrols of airborne enemies such as dragons, griffons, or airships with dangerous anti-air guns are yet another method.

Not every deterrent has to result in the dismount of a player. They can slow the player down to a crawl. They can screw with the player's controls, reversing them so it becomes hard to pilot correctly(potentially getting them into aggro of other things). Other effects could include randomly teleporting them anywhere in the zone without dismounting, or making them plummet to the ground for a certain duration without dismounting.

There's all kinds of options to make players on the back of a flying mount either want to avoid an area, or force them to take risks to get to where they want to be without resorting to, as blizzard put it so eloquently, "magic anti-flight dust".

Nope, not trolling, I honestly don't understand what you are arguing about so strongly if as far as you are concerned, what you are looking to gain is now pointless. What do you hope to achieve, Blizzard will do what they want and at the moment it's Pathfinder, I'm sure next expansion it will still be Pathfinder and probably the one after that. As you yourself have pointed out, Pathfinder was their compromise in WoD, do you really think they are gonna compromise further?

Yes I DO think they'll "compromise further" if enough people recognize how bad Pathfinder is. Or if they don't, they'll simply drive away every player who actually wants to enjoy flying. Your stance amounts to rolling over and just letting Blizzard just do whatever the hell they want without complaint. And I simply can't accept that. I want WoW to be better than that.

My problem with those zones, is while they were pretty cool, for the most part they were also fucking huge and took forever to cross without flying, IMO that's worse design than the current zones, at least they are traversable without flying. They were also fairly empty, which is kinda boring, but dont get me wrong, I enjoyed them none the less.

So rather than nuking flight and compacting all the zones into tiny little mazes filled with annoying shit, why not make ground mounts a little faster. Or...do like Suramar and add waypoints and teleporters spaced around conveniently. Or....here's a shocker....use the new improved flight paths to get people around faster.

And, like I said above, not every zone needs to be catered specifically to flying mounts. It's perfectly acceptable to have at least half the zones be built specifically for ground-only. Or, better than that, have each quest area be a mix of flying and non-flying, using whatever combination of hazards, indoor areas, or other methods to make players choose which approach they want to use.

Sure, that'd take a little bit more effort to design. But why is that actually bad? Don't we all want more interesting and diverse zones instead of the same formula applied everything?

That's not what I said at all. You literally criticized the shit out of the game, you have gone from one subject to another. If someone criticized everything about something that you had made or something that you really enjoyed you wouldn't suggest that maybe they seek their entertainment elsewhere?

Because I'm not criticizing everything. Just the design of the open world without flight and how weak it currently is.

I like WQs, I like level scaling(although it should scale with iLVL not character level). I like M+. I like equalized gear in PVP. I like raids. I liked scenarios(they should bring those back, btw). I like the new crafting! I LOVE the artifact progression and order hall content!

Ok, so there isn't really much competition, fair. The reason for that surely has to be superior design. Even the best out 5 bad products has to have superior design. You actually named quite a few competitors, fairly big names too, SWTOR- Bioware, ESO Bethesda/Zennimax, FFXIV - Square Enix, none of those companies are small developers, all are huge franchises with millions upon millions of fans yet none have toppled wow or even come close. Wildstar even has a huge chunk of wow's Original design team and even they couldn't reproduce wows success. They aren't going to play anything to get the same experience as wow because there's nothing out there like it. Yet you still criticize it.

If you're in a desert dying of thirst, you'll drink even muddy water if that's all you can find. Obviously playing MMORPGs isn't the same thing as dying from thirst, but I hope you get the point. Just because your choices are limited doesn't automatically make what's left good ones.


On an completely unrelated note: These replies are quickly becoming Threadnauts.

[Deleted]

You keep saying that its bad design that flight gated and delayed and you seem refuse to acknowledge that there is an opposition to your argument that is equally as valid but I still haven't seen a valid or logical answer, why do you need flight?

We don't NEED ground mounts either, lets get rid of them.

[Thimagryn]

Geezus that argument is stupid. How about instead we just say, "if you don't like no flying - don't play". Nice and simple. Problem solved just as simply as your well thought out comment.

That's exactly what WoD did and many people did quit.

[Battlebeard]

The harm it does is that it makes the world seem empty. Right now there's people everywhere, you see people all the time while running to and from world quests. With flying, you'll never see lots of people anymore since they just fly straight line to the point.

I see your point, however, I think personal choice should be prioritized over what Blizzard might consider be better for the players. Blizzard don't know whats best for us, WE DO!

[Deleted]

That's exactly what WoD did and many people did quit.

We don't know for sure how many did quit over no flying. What we know for sure is that it have been enough to make Blizz change stance on "no flying ever again". ;-)
But i guess he is one of those short sighted people that some how think less people playing a game is better for a product.... in whatever strange parallel universe that might be.

[Deleted]

I understand perfectly that some people like the ground game. What I did was ask him a question, not make an assumption. I wanted to confirm if he fully considered and understood what Pathfinder entailed.

I do. That's why I say I agree with the PF concept, in that we have to do it, but I really do not like that it takes this long to unlock. I find PF a decent compromise, since it's obvious we cannot have flying "for free" like we used to, but it doesn't mean I agree with waiting for a long time. It was "acceptable" to get flying in Tanaan, because the alternative was originally no flight at all, but even in WoD I protested against waiting that long in Legion. And here we are. Still waiting.

It sucks.

[Trapped]

What started the entire argument was someone at Blizzard getting the inspired idea that they could close pandora's box and create WoW expansions without flight. WoD was the result. Legion is the aftermath.

And do you really feel that Pathfinder is good? I mean, you're ok with not getting flight until you've already done everything that you'd otherwise use flight on?

Its not that I feel Pathfinder is good, I just felt it was a decent compromise to calm the no-flying war. I still don't know why anyone feels like the game feels better on the ground. Max level should unlock flying, just like it used to.

[Dormie]

We don't know for sure how many did quit over no flying. What we know for sure is that it have been enough to make Blizz change stance on "no flying ever again". ;-)
But i guess he is one of those short sighted people that some how think less people playing a game is better for a product.... in whatever strange parallel universe that might be.

It's adorable how quick you are to jump to conclusions just to begin to have a semblence of an argument.

[Deleted]

Its not that I feel Pathfinder is good, I just felt it was a decent compromise to calm the no-flying war. I still don't know why anyone feels like the game feels better on the ground. Max level should unlock flying, just like it used to.

I feel the same. Pathfinder would be a good compromise if you could complete it right away, not a year after the expansion's launch. Or create Pathfinder achievements for subsequent chunks of content - like PF 1 for "base Legion content" with zones available at launch, then PF 2 for the following zones in 7.2, and PF 3 for the zones in 7.3. If these achievements would be separate from each other, and you could complete each one without gating (just by fulfilling all requirements, loremaster was already heavily gated by time since it was tied to Nightfallen reputation), then Pathfinder would have been a good compromise.

In its current state, Pathfinder is a harassment tactic against all people who enjoy WoW with flying at max level, and don't enjoy it without - because WE HAVE DONE ALL THIS WHILE LEVELING.