[Discussion] Disc Healing Compared To Other Healers [Comparison][Raiding][Mythic+]

[Supliftz]

They recognize the problem, but don't have any solutions just yet. At very least, they realize that current Disc is pretty awkward and even though some people manage to use it to an amazing degree, the majority does not.

Also, "extremely sensitive to added mana in raids" straight from a blue, after all those "nono, we *totally* don't benefit from multiple Innervates, honest".

This really isn't even talking about innervate. This is more talking about mana trinkets and set bonuses that effect mana gain. Innervate has very little to do with what hes saying.

[PosPosPos]

Can this one thread about disc priest not turn into a troll fest of snarcky bickering, overexageration and semantic piss constest ?
It was a rather good read for 24h, let's keep it that way. Thanks in advance.

If you think a post is problematic, the report button is there, or you can PM a mod. I would point out that backseat modding is derailing the thread, but that would be doing the exact same thing as you.

Is the smite mana cost really needed ? Every other healer can dps for free during low damage phase. (We still can PTW)
The argument that smite would provide free healing is debunktable by :
a) Atonement application alway has a cost
b) Smite damage is moderate, so the resulting healing/mana of lets say 3 atonement would be arguably low (and probably mostly overheal)
c) Smite absorb portion is negligible in raid

It would be a 0 second cd healing spell with no mana cost, which no other healer has except Mistweaver, but it's what uniquely defines the spec. Having a free healing spell on a 0 second cd shouldn't be what defines discipline, and not to mention it's a huge buff to discipline that it doesn't need.

[Rife]

Is the smite mana cost really needed ? Every other healer can dps for free during low damage phase.

Removing the mana cost of Smite would make balancing Disc around mana constraints easier for Blizzard to manage but it would further the problem mentioned in the blue post.

The power of Light's Wrath in its current form means it will always be optimal to stack atonements as high as possible for LW and then do nothing of consequence for the next 1.5 minutes. The idea of Disc being a spec that manages atonements is a farce at the moment. Rather Disc is a spec that times their ~20 cast sequence for raid damage windows. Logs prove it works in specific circumstances but like the blue post said; it's a very inflexible and thus punishing playstyle when raid mechanics or the like get in the way of that cast sequence.

Making Smite free wouldn't change this style for the better. The issue lies in atonement application, light's wrath and uniform atonement healing transfer, not damage dealing.

I'd love to see SC redesigned into something like Sup mentioned a few posts ago, or it baked into the spec baseline. A way to scale atonement transfer inversely proportional to the number of atonements active. That would allow for the current atonement stacking style to be viable on fights with raidwide burst damage but would also make atonement healing viable in 5-mans, PvP and on fights with heavier damage patterns on fewer players.

Mistweaver, but it's what uniquely defines the spec.

Soothing is less than 10% of the healing done by most MW'ers in raids and only does appreciable healing in situations where a healer isn't needed. It's hardly a spec defining ability.

[Supliftz]

Tbh pvp atonement based playstyles are perfectly fine due to ultimate radiance/archangel existing. PVE just needs similar supporting talents.

[PosPosPos]

Soothing is less than 10% of the healing done by most MW'ers in raids and only does appreciable healing in situations where a healer isn't needed. It's hardly a spec defining ability.

The fact that it's so weak is the reason why it's free.

If Smite were to be free, it would have to be as weak as Soothing Mist for the sake of spec balance. Is that really what people want?

[Deleted]

The fact that it's so weak is the reason why it's free.

If Smite were to be free, it would have to be as weak as Soothing Mist for the sake of spec balance. Is that really what people want?

Could be given the treatment of plea, higher mana cost with high atonements up, balanced so it keeps the current mana cost when it actually does significant healing, but free in downtimes.

[PosPosPos]

Could be given the treatment of plea, higher mana cost with high atonements up, balanced so it keeps the current mana cost when it actually does significant healing, but free in downtimes.

The best way to handle smite if dps during downtime is such a big thing is to just have a separate dps spell with no cd that doesn't get transferred via atonement, because even if smite's cost scales it's still a very significant buff to disc.

Will also point out that Kam Xi'raff or whatever it's called will have to be reworked.

[Deleted]

The best way to handle smite if dps during downtime is such a big thing is to just have a separate dps spell with no cd that doesn't get transferred via atonement, because even if smite's cost scales it's still a very significant buff to disc.

Will also point out that Kam Xi'raff or whatever it's called will have to be reworked.

Sure making a completely new filler spell is the simplest solution, but I think a dynamic versatile spell is a more interesting design, and it doesn't necessarily need to produce a significant buff to those than don't need it if balanced correctly (after all, good disc players already don't cast smites in low atonement phases). That blue post did refer to the fact that disc atm is too clearcut between conservation and burst phases:
"Among other issues, since Discipline's healing is a product of Atonements out and damage done, the best way to optimize total healing over an encounter is concentrate the most possible damage and Atonements into a short window, with periods of low healing or near-inactivity in between. This is both a pretty inflexible healing profile, but also makes Discipline extremely sensitive to added mana in raids. This all also plays into the skill-floor issue that OP alluded to." - that's what I saw quoted, I didn't see the original post myself. The inflexibility is one of the things that bother me most about the current play style. Disc has always been about "always cast something", but now it just feels artificially throttled.

As for the legendary, it's not the first time one had to be reworked? Not that many disc legendaries make me squee with joy really. The helm, last time I checked, is not rated very strong.

[PosPosPos]

Sure making a completely new filler spell is the simplest solution, but I think a dynamic versatile spell is a more interesting design, and it doesn't necessarily need to produce a significant buff to those than don't need it if balanced correctly (after all, good disc players already don't cast smites in low atonement phases). That blue post did refer to the fact that disc atm is too clearcut between conservation and burst phases:
"Among other issues, since Discipline's healing is a product of Atonements out and damage done, the best way to optimize total healing over an encounter is concentrate the most possible damage and Atonements into a short window, with periods of low healing or near-inactivity in between. This is both a pretty inflexible healing profile, but also makes Discipline extremely sensitive to added mana in raids. This all also plays into the skill-floor issue that OP alluded to." - that's what I saw quoted, I didn't see the original post myself. The inflexibility is one of the things that bother me most about the current play style. Disc has always been about "always cast something", but now it just feels artificially throttled.

As for the legendary, it's not the first time one had to be reworked? Not that many disc legendaries make me squee with joy really. The helm, last time I checked, is not rated very strong.

They can't buff disc mana without first removing or at least throttling disc's interaction with innervate

[Deleted]

They can't buff disc mana without first removing or at least throttling disc's interaction with innervate

Can't say I'd mind that, too much dependence on something external for me. I'm not advocating the removal of external buffs, but I'm tired of the whole innervate debate, which is bound to be highly subjective, and I'd rather have myself more control. This is just personal preference, I'm not saying "this should be done", but I would prefer to lose some of the burst for more sustained healing and tools to deal with random/spot healing, and generally become less of a one trick pony. There's 3 things that got me in love with disc over the last 10 years:

1. Always be casting. I preferred the active mana mechanic of old rapture to holy's "sit on your ass and regen outside burst". I like to spam buttons, be them for healing, dpsing or regening. This new model somehow feels more akin to old holy, which I wasn't a fan of than to disc.
2. Good flexibility. You could always save an ass with a shield+penance, you could switch a talent or two and become a decent tank healer. Again, if I liked big dick hps shapes on the healing graphs with lay half dead periods in between, I'd have played holy more in the last 10 years.
3. Mixing dps with healing. I liked dpsing as holy in TBC, I was instantly sold on the whole atonement thing. I enjoyed the balance (or at least trying for balance) between healing proactively and reactively, and dpsing too. I didn't like when we were reduced to mitigation bots in WoD. I probably enjoyed Cata most as disc, with some debate on the whole Aegis issue.

2 of these things have been turned on their head for me. One remains and it's what keeps the spec still enjoyable. You're saying the legendary helm would need to be redesigned? What about Maiev, how is that good design to be based on spamming a spell that you're supposed to throttle if you want to improve your game? I'm supposed to be the "dps healer" why am I not using my every free gcd to dps? Gamebreaking? No? Little annoying contradictory things? Yeah. I don't want massive buffs for disc. I want some QoL changes, the spec to not be so black and white - you're either borderline broken or borderline suck, often half depending on things you have no or little control on, like your guild interested in how your class works (and no, fuck that innervate debate).

[Supliftz]

I don't understand how making smite work like plea would really even be helpful lol. You likely wouldn't even cast smite at low atonements even if it costed less mana. Smite is honestly in a perfect spot balance wise, why hamfist it into a new role?

This is why designing a free dps spell that didn't proc atonement would be preferable. Although even this would just be a massive utility buff to disc. On fights like guldan where you're basically afk half the time regening mana for orbs, you would contribute so much more dps, making the spec far more powerful.

I also don't know how they can change disc and have it not be effected by innervate. This is why sigma's post didn't even refer to innervate by name. Innervate is a problem for more specs than just disc. Again, the issue with external mana effects comes from trinkets/bosses. All the mana trinkets are pretty garbage for most healers because they would be too strong for disc. It also removes all trinket choices for most players, as you're auto locked to mana trinkets because they're simply better than most trinkets (save velens because that's equally as dumb). They also have to be concerned when they design bosses that give you mana. Because of the cenarius mana buff, I was consistently 100K+ hps ahead of literally every other healer before the fight became a joke. If Mythic Tich wasn't designed to poorly and didn't become easier to heal, it would be the same thing here.

I would like to see blizzard delete innervate and wisdom and just buff everyone's mana, and rework disc at the same time. It's very annoying that my destiny for top end parses is 100% dependent on how many innervates/wisdoms that I have, rather than any real skill.

[Yunzi]

I would like to see blizzard delete innervate and wisdom and just buff everyone's mana, and rework disc at the same time. It's very annoying that my destiny for top end parses is 100% dependent on how many innervates/wisdoms that I have, rather than any real skill.

I disagree. Innervate and BoW make the game more interactive - they are gameplay interactions between raid members, which is a good thing, AND they're interesting. Homogenizing the game for the sake of levelling parses is not a good tradeoff. If anything the game should have more of these kinds of interactions, not less.

[cpukiller]

disc priest is only good as long as you are very friendly with a dungeon(whatever that might be heroic raid 5men raid)

even so i feel disc priest is mediocre compare to other healers some say that disc priest's dps compensate lesser healing potential but to compensate that much of healing as a healer(disc priest is still a healer) they need more damage output.

for now I find myself no real advantages over other healers in raid dungeons.

[Yunzi]

The most recent FinalBoss interview isn't doing us any favors. Starting at 8:54 expert Resto Shaman Keehn says this about Disc:

"... they're a hybrid role... so they're not, designated healers, per se."

Bay then goes on to agree with him, calling Discipline a "support healer".

So there you have it. We're not designated healers. We're support healers.

[Hugginz]

TL : DR Disc REQUIRES innervate to be competitive... and more things

Good post. Playing disc is beyond frustrating without innervates and the Promises trinket. I've given it all I have, but I'm a fucking liability when I play disc in a raid setting without innervates and overly coordinated healing assignments.

It's just simply too mana-intense, period. I can heal like crazy, but for about 1 minute, then I'm oom and useless. I can't just AFK 2/3 of the fight regenning to set up the big bursts, there's too much unavoidable raid damage.

Disc has mana issues, at least at my gear level, but I don't see it becoming not a problem down the road.

[KaPe]

Disc has mana issues, at least at my gear level, but I don't see it becoming not a problem down the road.

Well, no, considering that Nighthold mana trinket is horrible and the only good ones are available outside the raids. Other items don't improve mana in any way, with the possible exception of that 5% mana necklace, which is largely useless.

Gearing is quite a nuisance - for both Priest specs, actually. There's nothing in there that says "well, once I get item X and ilvl 900+, my mana will be all good and I can use throughput trinket Y". It just doesn't happen, the regen remains the same and the best you can do is hope for Karazhan trinket to Titanforge to absurd level - because Promises will be ilvl capped until 7.2, if not 7.2.5. And even with two mana trinkets, Disc remains a mana hungry beast that can burn it all in a few rapid bursts.

The fact that Nighthold mana trinket is horrendous isn't helping, either.

[Supliftz]

Good post. Playing disc is beyond frustrating without innervates and the Promises trinket. I've given it all I have, but I'm a fucking liability when I play disc in a raid setting without innervates and overly coordinated healing assignments.

It's just simply too mana-intense, period. I can heal like crazy, but for about 1 minute, then I'm oom and useless. I can't just AFK 2/3 of the fight regenning to set up the big bursts, there's too much unavoidable raid damage.

Disc has mana issues, at least at my gear level, but I don't see it becoming not a problem down the road.

My post really didn't even say you need innervate to be competitive in the way you would like to believe. Yea you need innervates for 100th percentile parses, which is what i'm annoyed about.

You can perform totally fine without innervates. I remember hearing that siory did 2nd overall healing on Midwinter's M Helya kill, and topped Corrupted Axion healing w/o innervates. Expecting disc to top the hps meters without innervate is a joke though, a spec can be completely fine and never top the hps meters (see most guilds resto shamans).

[Desmonda]

...most recent FinalBoss interview[/URL] isn't doing us any favors. Starting at 8:54 expert Resto Shaman Keehn says this about Disc:

"... they're a hybrid role... so they're not, designated healers, per se."

Bay then goes on to agree with him, calling Discipline a "support healer".

So there you have it. We're not designated healers. We're support healers.

I really wish the Devs would just come out and SAY THIS ALREADY and shut everyone up with their denigrating remarks about our spec. I have played other MMOs where there are HYBRIDs, we did a bit of everything and had some utility. People understood that and wanted us to fulfil various roles needed for raid sucess. We were a luxury but a highly desired one and were relevant.

[Supliftz]

I disagree. Innervate and BoW make the game more interactive - they are gameplay interactions between raid members, which is a good thing, AND they're interesting. Homogenizing the game for the sake of levelling parses is not a good tradeoff. If anything the game should have more of these kinds of interactions, not less.

There's nothing exactly "interactive" about me hitting shift-2/3 and doing pressing radiance 4 times in a row. It just leads to annoyance when my boomkin decides to cast full moon and I'm sitting there for 4 seconds and being tilted. The same logic applies to ret paladins, but it's even more passive. I whisper my paladin every 1 hr so I can get 60% of my mana bar for free on a 10 minute fight.

It is also just straight up toxic to all mana management gameplay. I've taken off mana trinkets and spamming smite a lot now because boomkins/ret paladins completely hard carry my mana management.

- - - Updated - - -

The most recent FinalBoss interview isn't doing us any favors. Starting at 8:54 expert Resto Shaman Keehn says this about Disc:

"... they're a hybrid role... so they're not, designated healers, per se."

Bay then goes on to agree with him, calling Discipline a "support healer".

So there you have it. We're not designated healers. We're support healers.

Okay? I mean, I could interview some random top end raider who raids with a good disc priest, and ask for his opinion. Again this really ties back to the idea that not all top end players play with god tier disc priests, and average disc priests are in fact, quite bad.

This is obvious baiting anyway Yunzi, you know better than this.

- - - Updated - - -

disc priest is only good as long as you are very friendly with a dungeon(whatever that might be heroic raid 5men raid)

even so i feel disc priest is mediocre compare to other healers some say that disc priest's dps compensate lesser healing potential but to compensate that much of healing as a healer(disc priest is still a healer) they need more damage output.

for now I find myself no real advantages over other healers in raid dungeons.

If you're finding yourself unable to find a real advantage over other healers as a disc priest in a competitive raid setting, you are not playing disc to the level where you can see said advantages.

[Desmonda]

If you're finding yourself unable to find a real advantage over other healers as a disc priest in a competitive raid setting, you are not playing disc to the level where you can see said advantages.

Wait for it...."You BAD, git GUD!" I am really sick and tired of hearing this malarkey. The spec is flawed, too niche and a bad experiment. Just because YOU do well in it, doesn't mean the spec is useful overall. The spec setup and prep is complex for the sake of complexity and I bet dollars to donuts the devs are scratching their heads wondering how they can back silently out the door on this spec and forget what they did to it in Legion. The least played and for good reason...the spec is simply too niche. Other healers can do just as good healing than a disc without going OOM or being a innervate junkie dependent on other classes to provide them the tools to do their job.

I used to be able to do alot of things as Disc....tank heal, raid heal, spot heal and do DPS. Now I wait around for a "BIG BURST" aoe. Its stupid and IMHO, BORING. I am finally giving up and going holy. Although I will miss the dps part (thats the main reason I chose disc in the first place as I always play debuffing/dpsing healers in MMOS) I find the current iteration to be just plain short sighted and dull.

But by all means keep telling people how bad they are at the spec, and how viable it is. Its nothing but a self serving ego stroke for a few Discs that manage the spec and love to show off. I see you.