[Discussion] Disc Healing Compared To Other Healers [Comparison][Raiding][Mythic+]

[worcester]

"how come the good player innervate in the top 20 can make up for the "short comings of disc" :thinking:"

Okay, I am exaggerating a bit. But jokes aside, I think innervate is one of the problems. The difference that can be made by a good disc with innervate compared to other specs of similar skill is just too big. You have some guilds that have 2 balance and some with none. It's like dark intent all over again, just for healers this time.

[Yunzi]

Besides high-end parsing, which most Disc priests don't care much about, how is Innervate a problem? It's a cool interaction between raid members, it needs to be worked out and timed for strategic purpose. It would detract from the game to remove it. If it's too powerful (maybe so, well-timed in the hands of a Disc) then the solution is to nerf it.

[MendUS]

"how come the good player innervate in the top 20 can make up for the "short comings of disc" :thinking:"

Okay, I am exaggerating a bit. But jokes aside, I think innervate is one of the problems. The difference that can be made by a good disc with innervate compared to other specs of similar skill is just too big. You have some guilds that have 2 balance and some with none. It's like dark intent all over again, just for healers this time.

I think a lot of people agree that Innervate and BoW are bad design and nearly impossible to balance around. BoW not so much, since it's equal effect to any healer, but the way Innervate is designed makes it downright overpowered on certain specs.

[Desmonda]

Says who? You?

This holier than thou bullshit is getting real old real quick.

World first raiders do not think Disc is a world first race viable spec as evidenced by them not playing it, at all, in world first races. Your opinion on the matter carries no weight while their collective choices on ignoring the spec do. Stop pretending you know better.

The level of pretension in Disc threads is so much higher than any other healer discussion and it's starting to get in the way of legitimate discussion of the short-comings of the spec.

Glad someone else said it. I said this at the beginning of this thread and will continue to. I stopped listening to certain Disc priest due to their insufferable arrogance and holier than thou attitudes. And especially when logs show they are dependent on innervates and every other outside factor to be successful. I have just taken the attitude that we need to agree to disagree. The fact that Disc is the least played healer spec and missing in world first progression for the most part speaks for itself. And I actually don't think Blizzard intended for the spec to be what it currently is...I think they were too lazy to make a true hybrid, ran out of time and released this bad experiment hoping no one would notice. One less Disc priest, one player at a time. But then thats what some priests probably want.

[squirtguns]

I raid as holy, and do generally feel like disc is not as useful. However, I did have Mend in a heroic EN pug shortly after release and he's the only disc I have ever seen that put up HUGE healing numbers. He was putting out like a sustained 300-400k. To date the only time I have ever seen disc top any meters.

[Supliftz]

"how come the good player innervate in the top 20 can make up for the "short comings of disc" :thinking:"

Okay, I am exaggerating a bit. But jokes aside, I think innervate is one of the problems. The difference that can be made by a good disc with innervate compared to other specs of similar skill is just too big. You have some guilds that have 2 balance and some with none. It's like dark intent all over again, just for healers this time.

Isn't this true for every spec in the game? Why limit our discussion to innervates for disc, when literally every top end log has multiple innervates lol.

[Jimjam38]

Lol I like how the people arguing against the viability of disc manage to keep ignoring all the responses that prove them wrong. Convenient, I think I'll try it myself:

Lol if u think disc is bad ur just bad and nothing u can say can change that lololol. Think disc needs innervates to be competitive rofl, if ur disc with innervates and u aren't absolutely shitting on other healers ur actually just terribad lol. I know it and blizzard knows it, which is why they haven't 'fixed' us for u bads yet. lol

[Desmonda]

Lol I like how the people arguing against the viability of disc manage to keep ignoring all the responses that prove them wrong. Convenient, I think I'll try it myself:

Lol if u think disc is bad ur just bad and nothing u can say can change that lololol. Think disc needs innervates to be competitive rofl, if ur disc with innervates and u aren't absolutely shitting on other healers ur actually just terribad lol. I know it and blizzard knows it, which is why they haven't 'fixed' us for u bads yet. lol

Take out the "LOLs" and yeah, thats pretty much what you Discs that think the spec is perfect, usually say. I've been listening to that garbage for months.

[Rife]

Blizzard said there are no significant class changes coming in 7.2 and that any such changes would come with 7.2.5, if at all.

Which means the poor DPS scaling, innervate balancing concerns and inflexible burst or nothing playstyle is here to stay for at least a few months unless something gets hotfixed in mid-tier.

It's ironic that Blizzard chose to re-introduce innervate at the same time that stated they wanted mana to matter for healers. Innervate has had the opposite effect to what they intended.

I'd like to see SC be made into something that adds minor reactionary/spot healing to Discs toolkit to alleviate the current 100% dependence on well timed cast sequence atonement windows. A crutch that allowed for Discs to not feel completely useless in situations not suited to LW bursts would be nice.

I also think the mana issues and innervate dependence could be fixed by adding a mechanic akin to 6.X MW mana tea. Something that allowed for recuperation of mana during downtime that could be banked for later burst phases. Spamming smite over and over during downtime feels mundane and boring currently. Having such a mechanic that would allow, even in a small way, for downtime phases to support later burst phases with mana could make the downtime feel far less unimportant.

That would also fix the current issue of Discs refusing to cast smite at all during downtime to save mana for larger burst phases. I can't imagine Blizzard designed or intended for Discs to afk some portions of encounters to play optimally.

I have no idea how Discs issues could be addressed without significant changes though. Simply altering numbers wouldn't be enough.

[Atharaxie]

Isn't this true for every spec in the game? Why limit our discussion to innervates for disc, when literally every top end log has multiple innervates lol.

Could it be (but I may be wrong), that every healer needs to be fed innervates to top rank but that every other spec/class manages without BoW/Innervate while Disc struggles with 2 mana trinkets ?
Would that (partially) explain the gap between >95 and <75 percentile ?

I'm genuinely asking the question, I don't parse high end logs. I have no doubt that factors like skill, preparation and healer coordination are playing a huge part too.

[Supliftz]

Could it be (but I may be wrong), that every healer needs to be fed innervates to top rank but that every other spec/class manages without BoW/Innervate while Disc struggles with 2 mana trinkets ?
Would that (partially) explain the gap between >95 and <75 percentile ?

I'm genuinely asking the question, I don't parse high end logs. I have no doubt that factors like skill, preparation and healer coordination are playing a huge part too.

I don't think people realize how little difference mana trinkets actually make.

Disc is equipping them because it's more hps to cast more PW:R, not to "fix" mana problems.

[MendUS]

Take out the "LOLs" and yeah, thats pretty much what you Discs that think the spec is perfect, usually say. I've been listening to that garbage for months.

You are aware he is trolling you, right?

[Desmonda]

You are aware he is trolling you, right?

Oh I know what he was doing. I was simply asserting that this is what some Disc players say anyway! Including him Just leave out the LOLZ nonsense, same thing:

"Git GUD!"
"The spec is perfectly viable! Your just bad!"
"The spec isnt unviable because you can't play it! :P"

And on and on. Same thing.

[Jbreezy]

Isn't this true for every spec in the game? Why limit our discussion to innervates for disc, when literally every top end log has multiple innervates lol.

You keep using this argument. It is simply not true. Discipline is the only spec that has all top logs with multiple innervates. People getting wisdoms and multiple innervates are playing a different spec then those without. Stop acting like bombing radiances and penance on cd is the least bit difficult. It is all about the mana.

[Yunzi]

Oh I know what he was doing. I was simply asserting that this is what some Disc players say anyway! Including him Just leave out the LOLZ nonsense, same thing:

"Git GUD!"
"The spec is perfectly viable! Your just bad!"
"The spec isnt unviable because you can't play it! :P"

And on and on. Same thing.

A lot of us are concerned, rightly so, that the spec will be changed, perhaps radically changed, into something less fun. Legion Disc is *far* more enjoyable than WotLK, MoP, or WoD Disc (the only other three types I've played). We are defending from what we perceive to be a besieged position - as you're probably aware there are more "Disc haters" out there than those for any other spec in the game, except maybe Survival Hunters.

Legion Disc's gameplay is SO much better than previous iterations that it's important to defend the core design of the spec.

[MendUS]

You keep using this argument. It is simply not true. Discipline is the only spec that has all top logs with multiple innervates. People getting wisdoms and multiple innervates are playing a different spec then those without. Stop acting like bombing radiances and penance on cd is the least bit difficult. It is all about the mana.

Ok, so would you like to explain this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

No innervate, no BoW, competitive with other healers? From what a lot of people are saying here that isn't possible but it definitely is. Sups is stating that every spec requires Innervate and BoW's to parse at a 99th-100th percentile level. Look at any spec and see what external mana the player has for ranks 1-10 and you'll see a pattern.

Disc does benefit the most from Innervate, but that doesn't take away the fact that anyone (regardless of spec) is using Innervate and BoW to rank higher.

[Deleted]

obviously every top parse has innervate because whatever you do, if you add innervate you do more
if that wasn't true innervate would effectively not even exist

[Jbreezy]

Ok, so would you like to explain this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...1&type=healing

No innervate, no BoW, competitive with other healers? From what a lot of people are saying here that isn't possible but it definitely is. Sups is stating that every spec requires Innervate and BoW's to parse at a 99th-100th percentile level. Look at any spec and see what external mana the player has for ranks 1-10 and you'll see a pattern.

Disc does benefit the most from Innervate, but that doesn't take away the fact that anyone (regardless of spec) is using Innervate and BoW to rank higher.

The pattern is all disc top parses have innervates. Other healers top parses do not all have innervates. Never said that it couldnt compete, just that discipline healers with mana buffs are playing a different game.

[Atharaxie]

The pattern is all disc top parses have innervates. Other healers top parses do not all have innervates. Never said that it couldnt compete, just that discipline healers with mana buffs are playing a different game.

And that's not a problem at all. Ranking is a mini game for players bored once progress is over.
The important question was "Is Disc viable in mythic without external mana ?"

This Chrono log is the proof of viability : Mend was better than the Shaman and the dead HolyPriest.
On Trilliax, he did as much as the HP and more than the dead Shaman.
On Skorp, he was sligly behind probably due to 4 healing.

We can't ask for the proof of something and then move the goal post once we are given one.

[Kuruption]

People have such a witch hunt against Disc and I just don't understand it. It's such a fun and interesting class (totally subjective, I know), but for some reason, some people just want to bury it and say it's shit.

Also people talking about no discs in world first kills (which apparently means the spec sucks), I guess that means every tank besides Brewmaster and Guardian are shitty too. Guess all those tanks should just quit playing.