‘Our land’: Russia tells US that Crimea won’t be ‘given back’ to Ukraine

[caervek]

I am arguing that Russia makes no effort to make this referendum look like it's legitimate.

Probably because the results look legitimate anyway so no need to.

[Natylyaz]

Is saying "Sorry" enough? Noone is going to roll anything back. We can even pay some billions to Ukraine if they would accept payment in return for accepting status quo (though they would need to repay their debt to us too).

And... why should Russia actually make an effort? Russian interests come first; if it can be "accepted and respected" while pursuing them, great.
If it cannot, well, "acceptance and respect" mean nothing when you can just force your own solution anywhere it matters.
Or just wait for politicians to change, like in case of France both Fillon or Le Pen seem to call for better relations with Russia regardless of Crimea status.

Then don't expect many people in the USA or in Europe to see Russia in a good light, and that's a loss for all individuals and potentially for long-term peace.
And don't start with the USA, they are definitely not a good example of a respectable country regarding what I mentioned earlier, and Europe is too soft anyway.

[Crispin]

I am not arguing that many people in Crimea wanted to become part of the Russian Federation (the truth is probably between 50% and 90%).
I am arguing that Russia makes no effort to make this referendum look like it's legitimate.
- Options in the referendum, why no question in favour of the current situation?
- Irregularities during the vote (transparent ballots, no envelopes, no identity check, russians could vote)
- Military presence (it was Ukrainian territory regarding international law)

To be accepted and respected, a country has to accept its shortcomings and its past errors.
I am French, and I am fully aware France has done so many terrible things in the past, and still do in some occasions.
Claiming the Crimea referendum is entirely regular and legitimate will not improve the perception of Russia at all (my best friend is russian, and he's so pissed at this mentality of everything is perfect in Russia and Putin).
Russia is a great country, an awesome place to visit, but they look like pedantic aggressors from the outside, and that's a negative for both Russians and Europeans (and everyone).

Give up, trust me they do not see any issue with invading part of a country, holding a quick referendum while under control from foreign forces who somehow cant even admit it's their soldiers, invite "observers" of their choice and point to a fucking poll to point out it's legitimate or in another case CDU pointing out Merkel...

[Natylyaz]

Probably because the results look legitimate anyway so no need to.

Says you, how about the parts of my post where I point out it's not?

[caervek]

Says you

No says historical fact, as I assume you haven't read all the thread I will sum it up for you:

1954: Crimea demands referendum on being given to Ukraine, Russia refuses because the result would be an overwhelmingly no.
1991: Crimea is given a referendum on restoring it's autonomy, result is an overwhelming yes.
1991: Following a coup attempt in Russia Ukraine holds a referendum on independence, it returns an overwhelming yes, except in Crimea where less than 37% of the electorate are in favour.
1994: Crimea holds a referendum on restoring it's autonomy and it's citizens regaining Russian citizenship, result is overwhelmingly yes.
1995-2013: Polls conducted in Crimea show overwhelming support for rejoining Russia (ironically the percentages decreased in the years leading up to the Ukranian coup), there are also multiple anti-Ukrainian protests.
2014: Crimea holds a referendum on rejoining the Russian Federation, result is overwhelmingly yes.

Which part of that makes you think the results look in any way out of the ordinary/suspicious? Crimea have been fighting/campaigning to return to Russia ever since Ukraine took over in 1995!

[Natylyaz]

No says historical fact, as I assume you haven't read all the thread I will sum it up for you:

1954: Crimea demands referendum on being given to Ukraine, Russia refuses because the result would be an overwhelmingly no.
1991: Crimea is given a referendum on restoring it's autonomy, result is an overwhelming yes.
1991: Following a coup attempt in Russia Ukraine holds a referendum on independence, it returns an overwhelming yes, except in Crimea where less than 37% of the electorate are in favour.
1994: Crimea holds a referendum on restoring it's autonomy and it's citizens regaining Russian citizenship, result is overwhelmingly yes.
1995-2013: Polls conducted in Crimea show overwhelming support for rejoining Russia (ironically the percentages decreased in the years leading up to the Ukranian coup), there are also multiple anti-Ukrainian protests.
2014: Crimea holds a referendum on rejoining the Russian Federation, result is overwhelmingly yes.

Which part of that makes you think the results look in any way out of the ordinary/suspicious? Crimea have been fighting/campaigning to return to Russia ever since Ukraine took over in 1995!

You have completely missed the point of my post, here it is:

I am not arguing that many people in Crimea wanted to become part of the Russian Federation (the truth is probably between 50% and 90%).
I am arguing that Russia makes no effort to make this referendum look like it's legitimate.
- Options in the referendum, why no question in favour of the current situation?
- Irregularities during the vote (transparent ballots, no envelopes, no identity check, russians could vote)
- Military presence (it was Ukrainian territory regarding international law)

If you want a region to switch countries, make it happen in a way which is likely to be accepted by the international community, this is not the case.
Again: I am NOT arguing the fact that Crimeans wanted to become Russians.

[Elim Garak]

Which part of that makes you think the results look in any way out of the ordinary/suspicious? Crimea have been fighting/campaigning to return to Russia ever since Ukraine took over in 1995!

The Russia part. According to western media Russia is a horrible non-democratic country ruled by a tyrannical dictator who is a reincarnation of Hitler. Who in their right mind would want to join Russia? No one. Therefore Crimean referendum result is bogus.

[Shalcker]

Then don't expect many people in the USA or in Europe to see Russia in a good light, and that's a loss for all individuals and potentially for long-term peace.

Your loss. Guess you don't value that peace over moral grandstanding.

[Damajin]

No, thats not how it works.

If me and say, my 3 closest neighbours all vote to have our houses and the areas around here be part of Denmark rather than Sweden, you can't just say "Fine, the people have voted".
The world would not work that way.

Besides, voting in the middle of a war with an AK47 pointed at you? Doubt that'll give fair and accuracy results.

No, what you said is not how it works. How Crimea voted worked.

There was no war there until the West supported Poroshenko and Neonazi groups in an attempt to invalidate the people of Crimea and their votes. It's hysterical that you think those people voted with an AK47 pointed at them when they're all ethnic Russians and have generations of history as a part of Russia.

Your post is naive and uninformed.

[Elim Garak]

Y
Again: I am NOT arguing the fact that Crimeans wanted to become Russians.

Then there's nothing to argue about as that's the only thing that matters.

[Natylyaz]

Then there's nothing to argue about as that's the only thing that matters.

My feeling, your feeling, Putin's feeling of what Crimeans want is irrelevant.
A regular and open referendum, with neutral international observers and no military presence, would have made this unequivocal.
Now it's a mess, and I would be so glad it were circumscribed to this forum.

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Your loss. Guess you don't value that peace over moral grandstanding.

That's my point, that's a threat to peace.

[Shalcker]

My feeling, your feeling, Putin's feeling of what Crimeans want is irrelevant.
A regular and open referendum, with neutral international observers and no military presence, would have made this unequivocal.

Show example of that ever happening in any country after coup.

Just to check how feasible is that in reality.

I'm fairly certain all examples of such secession in such circumstances included military presence (usually of some outside party).

That's my point, that's a threat to peace.

Well, the solution is obvious - accept that Crimea is Russian and this threat will disappear.

That seems to be direction your French politicians are leaning toward too.

[Crispin]

That seems to be direction your French politicians are leaning toward too.

Like Trump? Sorry but Fillon wont change anything towards Russia, your only hope is that right wing neo-nazi Le Pen, ironic isnt it.

[Deleted]

That's my point, that's a threat to peace.

The only threat to peace are warmongering NATO, trying to tell others how to live. NATO are butthurt that their opinion was completely ignored and that their installation of puppet government in Kiev didn't work out as planned.

Accept that Crimean people made their choice and move on. That's the only way to peace. Demanding return of Crimea is not productive because it will never happen and its a stupid thing to demand.

[caervek]

A regular and open referendum, with neutral international observers and no military presence, would have made this unequivocal.

You mean like the 1994 referendum, which resulted in the Ukrainian military deposing the Crimean president, dissolving their government, voiding their constitution and passing new anti-tartar legislation?

Yeah, can't think why they took the quick and dirty route this time :P

[Shalcker]

Like Trump? Sorry but Fillon wont change anything towards Russia, your only hope is that right wing neo-nazi Le Pen, ironic isnt it.

Yeah, certainly someone from Denmark is always expert in French politics :P

[Natylyaz]

Show example of that ever happening in any country after coup.

Just to check how feasible is that in reality.

I'm fairly certain all examples of such secession in such circumstances included military presence (usually of some outside party).

Well, the solution is obvious - accept that Crimea is Russian and this threat will disappear.

That seems to be direction your French politicians are leaning toward too.

Russia's behaviour is a threat to peace, people can't magically accept the status quo after this referendum in this war.
They give too many examples they can't be trusted.
Disregarding critical comments from so many countries is not promoting peace and good relations.

Do you think all of these countries are slaves to Obama and blindly repeat the official stance of the White House? Instead, they are aware this is not the proper way to fulfill the will of the Crimeans.

Maybe Crimeans wanted to be independent, outside of both Ukraine and Russia? Where was this option?

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The only threat to peace are warmongering NATO, trying to tell others how to live. NATO are butthurt that their opinion was completely ignored and that their installation of puppet government in Kiev didn't work out as planned.

Accept that Crimean people made their choice and move on. That's the only way to peace. Demanding return of Crimea is not productive because it will never happen and its a stupid thing to demand.

I am not demanding the return of Crimea, I'm saying Russia behaves in a manner which does not promote peace, see my other latest posts.

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You mean like the 1994 referendum, which resulted in the Ukrainian military deposing the Crimean president, dissolving their government, voiding their constitution and passing new anti-tartar legislation?

Yeah, can't think why they took the quick and dirty route this time :P

So if Ukraine is stupid, Russia must be stupid too?
What are they? 5 years old at school?

[Crispin]

Yeah, certainly someone from Denmark is always expert in French politics :P

Sorry to kill your hopes, but I understand French and European politics far better than you ever would, Fillon wont change anything, he'll hit the same wall of reality and resistance as Trump has.

And Le Pen won't become President even tho she'll advance to the 2nd round.

[Machismo]

If Russia wants to be fine with this, then any part of Russia that decides they do not wish to be a part of them, can freely vote on their own to leave. After all, we don't want the Russians to be hypocrites, do we?

If some village or region in Southern Russia wants to leave, then Russia would of course let them leave, right?

[Teri]

How is South Korea not a recognized country by others? Yes, North/South Korea are the in the same area, but on the world stage they are treated very differently.

"South Korea, independent since 1948, is not recognised by one UN member, North Korea."

"North Korea, independent since 1948, is not recognised by three UN members: France, Japan, South Korea; and one non-UN member: Taiwan."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ed_recognition