Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Koriani]

If they designed the game so that if you punched yourself in the face in RL with an iron fist you got extra loot, would they have no blame for the resulting injuries?

Yes, players doing something self-destructive is their fault, but designing a game to incentivize that behavior is the designers' fault.

Actually, no. If said person walked into the game after signing a waiver saying they would not blame the company for the injuries from stepping into the game - no the game is not at all responsible. Ever watched reality programming? Ever paid attention to humans?

As this is not a hard and fast rule in real life - why under creation would it be a hard and fast rule in gaming?

MMO reward systems work on the exact same systems that most successful reward systems work on. The same one GAMBLING works on. Systems that are designed to take every advantage of the human psyche possible in order to eek out an extra penny. (not that hard! We're animals!)

You realize an entire mathmatical school of thought, an entire science, exists to study the best ways to manipulate other people successfully to get what XXXX wants?

Casinos across the world are paying probably billions of dollars to the men and women of this science to program their machines' algorithms and tell them what color to put on their bath mats.

Every one of these games (and all of gambling - RNG- so every MMO ever as they all have tons of RNG) operate out of the basics of Operant Conditioning, pure Behavioral psychology 101 - Inconsistent reward system.

This reward system is the most addictive - most reinforcing - strongest driving - reward system that we humans respond to. And we all do it - in little and big ways. Not all of us are addicted to it. But its present in all of our lives. And its the inconsistent reward system.

Its not the system that rewards or punishes you based on a consistent measurement and standard. Its not the one that always gives the treat at the first, or third, or 10th time you give the right answer (or the punishment at the wrong answer). Its the one that gives out its rewards in a random-seeming way.

That is the reward system that the rat will kill itself on before stopping a behavior. That is the reward system of anything using any type of "random" reward system - RNG.

Not when you know for every 3rd dollar you spend you give five dollars. But because you know that sometimes it only takes that one dollar to win a million. Ok well maybe the 2nd... ok now the 3rd. Only the third one tonight. Only the third one this month...

~~~

That is how real life works. You're responding to that drive right now - in this forum. Playing WoW, or any other MMO. The RNG Inconsistent reward system has you.

Stop blaming the devs. That's not how real life works.

The person walking out of the gun store who kills a person three days later - the gun store is not held responsible (at least not in the US Where Blizz operates out of.).

The person who goes and blows his entire family's savings of 30 years at a casino over the course of a month - the casino is not responsible for the loss of that family's money. Its not even responsible for keeping out known gambling addicts from their facilities! ITS NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO KNOW!!

Because no - its the INDIVDIUALS fault and responsibility to control themselves.

Its your choice. No. No they aren't responsible because you can't stop playing a video game. Not at all.


~~
Go take a Psychology 101 course and ask the professor about gambling and behavioral conditioning. Go search a wikki. Everyone. Please. At least know what you're falling for.

And if you realize you have an addiction; that you really can't stop - please get help. Its a video game. The devs are not responsible for anything at all in your life. Unless they are paying you a salary to play and you sign a contract agreeing to play for said salary.

You're the victim of an algorithm. The proprietary system that Blizz protects above all else. Every game does. That's the stuff of billions.

[Coffeexbean]

I mean, I won't argue that Ion's point isn't valid. However, the design on Legion seemed to be totally geared towards the super-grindy mindset. I mean, I can play the game right now on a binge for 48 Hours of just M+ and it would be beneficial to my character to do so. Legendary drop chance, chance for Titanforge, AP. I'm exaggerating of course, but Legion feels like it's geared towards grinding like crazy for hours on end.

grinding is a choice. Its geared towards grinding like crazy for hours on end if you choose to do that with your time. Its also geared to spending as little time as possible if you want to do that. In the real world you can also eat a fuck ton of candy or choose how much you want, no one is forcing you to eat more if you dont want too. Mythic raiders: Candy is soo good and I feel forced to eat all of it nonstop. Casuals: Candy is good but I dont have to eat it all today maybe just piece or two. Being limited to an amount of candy (cap) would be bad, people just need to control their game habits. legion is designed to always have something to do if you want something to do

[rogoth]

We had plenty of people without 54 that had no problem with those dps checks. I'm a bit worried for your sake though since you're rocking bracers and still can't break 600k with 903 ilvl and 54 traits on krosus.

i haven't even gotten to krosus on mythic yet, furthermore as one of the very few people in my team that actually executes mechanics properly it usually falls on me and a couple of others to make sure it isn't a wipe on heroic, where i can't actually just sit there and tunnel the boss, added to that fact the last 2 clears i have done i can count on 1 hand the number of bracer procs i have had, but i forget, you have managed 100% proc rate on yours right?

[Nosdrone]

Are we still defending blizzard for the shit show that is legion?

I'm enjoying myself in this video game.

If I wasn't, I wouldn't be on forums about said video game. I'd move on and go somewhere else.

Then again, I'm not an addict. I don't "need" my Warcraft fix in order to operate. Can't say the same for others.

[ls-]

He isn't wrong though... Burnout is a community issue, people always complain about gating/caps and how much they hate it, but when there's no gating/caps, people start complaining about burnouts. If you can't refrain from overdoing something when there's no limit, it's your own fault.

And no, WoW shouldn't turn into MOBA to please certain groups in PvP/PvE crowd who want hard organised content, e.g. high rated BGs/Arenas, Mythic raids, etc, to be independent from character's progression, so people could login, raid, and then logout till next week.

[Teri]

Now we at least know why it was called the Burning Legion in the first place...

Legion is the expansion name, Burnout is the result

[Relapses]

It is the problem with mythic raiding in general. The problem is before the game was tuned perfectly for the highest level of raiders and now it's tuned for casuals. That's the problem. But even still the casuals feel like there's never anything to do. I don't even get it tbh like these people are never satisfied. Mythic raiders always just deal with the struggles but legion obviously killed that.

Right. But most of the posts in this thread are "players need to control themselves," "it's not Blizzard's fault players choose to play the game so much" and any number of completely disconnected statements which make it plainly obvious they've never raided Mythic.

[Wingspan]

He's right though. It's not his job to protect players from themselves.

Actually, it IS part of the job of the designer to minimize/prevent unhealthy behavior in your game.

They can't always control every aspect of player behavior of course, but it is core to design if you want to provide a good player experience.

[sionus]

https://clips.twitch.tv/warcraft/OpenDugongYouWHY

What a fucking ass. Seriously.

Fire this guy ASAP.

Hate to break it to you, but he's right. People choose to play the game to excess, but it's not designed with those players in mind.

[TITAN308]

I love reading your responses since I always read them in Jakes voice.

Makin' bacon pancakes!

Makin' bacon pancakes!

Gonna cook up da bacon and put it in da pancakes!

[Zamfix]

All the butthurt Hardcores here are gonna be so mad when Wow ends and no one gives a shit they killed mythic bosses. Oh wait, even now no one gives a shit.

[Relapses]

All the butthurt Hardcores here are gonna be so mad when Wow ends and no one gives a shit they killed mythic bosses. Oh wait, even now no one gives a shit.

The audacity of people to enjoy Mythic raiding!

[Jtbrig7390]

Yes, players doing something self-destructive is their fault, but designing a game to incentivize that behavior is the designers' fault.

And how do you design a MMO that doesn't have that outcome.

Anything with numbers will always have a hardcore group trying to beat said numbers. That is why they are not responsible. By this logic no game can be made because u will always get some hardcore nut doing too much.

(People dying in gaming cafe's is proof of this)

The burnout and abusing is on the player no one else.

[Ianus]

But they are tuning Mythic raids for EXACTLY that type of play. Do the Devs share zero responbility in your eyes, honestly?

The devs are the only ones who can actually change what is required... I pretty much guarantee most Mythic guilds would LOVE to see changes which meant that mythic raiding required less time commitment outside of raiding itself.

lol its same shit as killing someone is normal for you just because you can thats your analogy.. and yes they make hard mythic because its f mythic and its supposed to be hard and to f last not to be on farm in fucking 2 weeks

[Deleted]

lol its same shit as killing someone is normal for you just because you can thats your analogy.. and yes they make hard mythic because its f mythic and its supposed to be hard and to f last not to be on farm in fucking 2 weeks

Amount of clueless in this post is breath taking

[melodramocracy]

If they designed the game so that if you punched yourself in the face in RL with an iron fist you got extra loot, would they have no blame for the resulting injuries?

Yes, players doing something self-destructive is their fault, but designing a game to incentivize that behavior is the designers' fault.

Personal responsibility, we hardly knew ya.

[MoanaLisa]

If they designed the game so that if you punched yourself in the face in RL with an iron fist you got extra loot, would they have no blame for the resulting injuries?

Yes, players doing something self-destructive is their fault, but designing a game to incentivize that behavior is the designers' fault.

Games are designed to be played. It's up to the player to know when they're done. Self-destructive behavior is more often than not a social problem, not a problem with the design. It's not that we're all such morons that we're helpless to stop playing the game. We aren't. At least some of us. Self control is a virtue. By this point probably more than a hundred million people have walked away from the game, some temporarily, some forever. That's right and proper. Millions more stay or return from time to time. That's right and proper as well.

[Silversorrow]

Not just the guild leaders fault but players fault in general. If they want to go for world first and do insane things to do it that's their own dam fault. No one can design a game that will make the elite raiders happy and the other 99% at the same time. The world first guilds either accept they are doing it to themselves for a goal they have, or give up and enjoy the game. Don't blame the game designers for their own overly competitive attitude.

[baileytfbk]

I can see where people are coming from with blaming players.. I'm currently on a hiatus from the game at the moment trying to move on from being burnt out.. I raid in a top 100 guild and I do so because I actually like the challenge of the game.. but tuning mythic encounters to 54 traits would always push raiders to need to be at that point..

Split runs we did on our own accord, we as raiders wear that.. but the AP grind was intense short of doing maw carry runs. inb4 people say it was our choice, heroic is easy.. why wouldn't we go after a challenge. It's how it was tuned that really pushed the 54 traits being mandatory

[Hctaz]

Right. But most of the posts in this thread are "players need to control themselves," "it's not Blizzard's fault players choose to play the game so much" and any number of completely disconnected statements which make it plainly obvious they've never raided Mythic.

That's a fair point. I mean, the majority of players haven't really raided mythic I'm sure. A lot of people here don't even raid at all. I understand the disconnect and the fact that I won't get any sympathy for my statement. Mythic is very cut throat. The more things you can do in the week that are worthwhile for a mythic raider to do to get even a .1% edge on the competition, they will do it. Titanforge and AP are nightmare mechanics for Mythic raiders to deal with. I would know. I'm not in a high end guild but we're still expected to be 54 traits in by now with farming M+ every week an expectation. I'm only 50 traits in... I can't imagine what these other raiders went through.