Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[bufferunderrun]

That's where you're wrong. Mythic raiding is designed around playing 80 hours a week. And Ion is the head designer.

Accepting ZERO responsibility for HIS and HIS TEAM'S design is the absolute pinnacle of hubris. This guy is so full of himself it honestly makes me sick.

mythic is just one of the various difficulties available, it's not like blizzard impose to raid it, peoples willingly thrown themselves on mythic lured by the reward and then burnout because it require enormous effort to clear it.
LFR>Normal>Heroic>Mythic you can freely chose one, is mythic to much tolling? Then scale down to heroic, the only thing that can be considered blizzard fault is to have supported, for many year, the mentality that the true endgame is only mythic.

[jayheals]

they want to have a semi-endless reward system in place so people can feel like they can progress their character when they log in. unfortunately that kind of endless reward system becomes unhealthy in a competitive environment when it's pushed to it's limit. They feel like the reward system is more valuable to the game at the expense of the health of competitive mythic raiding. I don't know of any real fix other than some kind of "herald of the titans" style race where you don't get the achievement unless the whole raid is under 50 artifact traits (or wherever you want to set the tuning).

Their fix is just making the progression longer and less rewarding, but I'm fairly certain that will only make the problem worse.

[Doffen]

Well I changed main so I dinged 110 in late November, got 54 traits this week. I play averagely 30 hours a week. So if I played from 30. august I would be 54 traits before christmas=before nighthold.

"Burned out" If mythic raiders complain about this, well please quit this game now. Getting 54 traits in a specc does not take endless grind. You just have to play 3-4 hours a day. If you are a hardcore mythic raider you wouldn't have any problems of reaching that before Nighthold. Quit the freakin QQ!

The reason people gets burned out is because they have played this game for years. I see it in my guild too. All those who complain for different aspects of the game has played the game for 10-13 years without long breaks.

Stop blaming blizzard for everything. Most of the problems lies in peoples head. Take a god damn break.

And, those so called hardcore mythic raiders(you dont deserve that title if you cant spend some hours playing WoW) is it so bad that a boss is tuned tightly. Mythic Guldan was not tuned tightly was he? Took 10 days or so? They could use more than 14-days like in the past and killed him with 45 traits. They did not NEED 54 traits. Its their rush for doing it so fast that made them needing those 54-traits.

Think about it.

[Armourboy]

they want to have a semi-endless reward system in place so people can feel like they can progress their character when they log in. unfortunately that kind of endless reward system becomes unhealthy in a competitive environment when it's pushed to it's limit. They feel like the reward system is more valuable to the game at the expense of the health of competitive mythic raiding. I don't know of any real fix other than some kind of "herald of the titans" style race where you don't get the achievement unless the whole raid is under 50 artifact traits (or wherever you want to set the tuning).

Their fix is just making the progression longer and less rewarding, but I'm fairly certain that will only make the problem worse.

Eh if it doesn't make a huge difference then for most people it won't feel like something they need to do. I don't care what they do, outside of putting a hard cap on gains, which is bad for other reasons, there isn't a whole lot they can do to make this type of player just stop.

I think they have just decided to design the game with most of the players in mind, and if it isn't so great for world first type guilds then so be it. I think they have figured out that you can't really design one system for 3-4 different play styles. So basically they have just chosen to go with whatever covers the most people.

[jdbond592]

Fraking Blizzard ...Game is too casual now. Back in my days...



Fraking Blizzard! Game takes to much time. I am burned out...



Opinion from same MMOC expert...Get this, IT IS MYTHIC! Don't do it!
This whining would have been hilarious if it were not on MMOC.

[Zyky]

Because you obvioulsy have to play 80h/week to have 54 artifact traits.
Content is supposed to last til 7.2 and beyond.
No reason to clear it in the first week.

No but content should be doable in the first few weeks of it being out. The current tuning hardly anyone can get past the first 3 bosses because of how overtuned the bosses are past them. Coming from a 5/10m raider, the content is too overtuned.

[Jorach]

I appreciate Ion in many ways, Legion is by far best xpac since WotLK imo. His words are for %0,01 percent of total player pool so, its funny most of the peep with 3/10 normal commenting on burning out. "You" dont need 54 trait my dear flamer, enjoy the xpac.

[Tojara]

Tuning aside, and it's obvious most of this shit is tuned around 54 traits, he isn't wrong in saying that it's a guild leaders fault for burnout. Guilds have been doing this before AP, it just so happens they are adding more and more progression systems in the game. It isn't designed for specifically for HC guilds, it's designed for literally everybody. I won't play armchair developer, but from what I witnessed over the years, people stop playing the game once they feel like they hit a ceiling. For most this is usually when LFR is done and the characters they like playing are no longer increasing in power. Legendary items, AP, M+ are all systems that help curb this some.

Guilds quit in the past because of the increased demands. There was a time and age where people didn't do split runs and require half a dozen alts. If you're sitting here complaining that this is a new phenomenon, it isn't. Historically just look back to the beginning and just look at what people did. Yeah people were try hards back then too, but that normally just extended to the amount of consumables and world buffs people were willing to take advantage of. Slowly, people started adding raid days and hours to their schedule, and I remember people being amazed that there were some guilds who would raid Sunwell for 20-24 hours in a single week. By comparison, there are guilds who raid 16 hours a day for an entire week. Keep going through the expansions and you start to see people come up with having split raids, extreme class stacking and more/more split raids.

AP really isn't the problem and honestly I agree with Blizzard on the front that guilds are doing it to themselves. I myself am not really interested in a race because a race, at least in real terms should be based on the personnel, but that's pretty much impossible to be the only factor when it comes to a living breathing game like an MMO. Player skill is a huge factor, but you still have who raids more, who picked the right classes to stack, and who is the most prepared. Sometimes it even comes down, at least on an individual boss level of who has somebody who can code weakauras better, making encounters a lot easier.

They just don't care about the very top of the iceberg, and honestly, they really shouldn't. I remember prior to this expansion, I think Fatboss or something interviewing Ion and being really concerned about M+ and how it would be a lot to ask hardcore raiders to do, when they already do split raiding. It was apparent then, at least to me that you already have people in guilds like these on the brink of insanity trying to maintain split raids to the degree that they do, and when asking more people start folding.

People have these discussions every tier about how tiers don't last as long, and honestly I laugh every time. EN for sure what under tuned, but I don't think people fully realized that a slow organic grind, where you have weeks upon weeks of progression with most guilds running just one raid group with roughly the same hours is gone. The encounters demand far more these days, and the bosses are a million times harder. People are just better at the game, are far more prepared, play the best classes and play far more than they ever did in the first three expansions of the game.

[americandavey]

Right on the money.

Fraking Blizzard ...Game is too casual now. Back in my days...



Fraking Blizzard! Game takes to much time. I am burned out...



Opinion from same MMOC expert...Get this, IT IS MYTHIC! Don't do it!
This whining would have been hilarious if it were not on MMOC.

[Brewhan]

dude, I know Ion's character has 4/10 mythic and actually 900 equipped so he's not some scrub in game ok. He's right and was mostly pointing the finger at those no life guild leaders who are pressuring people to have 54 traits/ farm MoS 300 times and min-max every little thing pushing 80 hrs a week. Ion is like Nah fam that's on you for being a no life not even showering don't blame us devs. He's right. Just learn to interpret what he's saying because he comes from a lawyer background so his fancy words and delicate way of saying things are obtuse sometimes.

[Cerunnir]

Yeah I rather not spend x amount more nights or weeks on a boss because I have 10% less damage required to kill the boss, fuck off.

This shit should never have been implemented in the first place, just have the artifact traits and no paragon points, it's a joke that you are forced to farm to get the extra %age damage points to kill bosses faster.

Thats when you go back and refarm the bosses you have killed before, and try again next week with better gear.

[Voldro]

There is finally a raid in Legion which is not easy , and now ppl complain. This is how mythic raiding should look like. Nowadays so many players with some time in their hands go into mythic raiding thinking about all the gear they would get and the progress,not really considering the time needed. Being in a top guild it is like a full time job . If you cant do it , it is ok , but do not complain. I am not a mythic raider , i do not have the time and most probably i am not experienced enough , but i am well aware of the time needed , so I just stay out of it.

[Vuagnon]

Guild leaders are horrible and so is legion.

[Sylv_]

Classic Blizzard.
I've been shaming them for years.

I love when they prove me right. What a bunch of idiots.
RIP Pre Wrath WoW.

[Fleuria]

Thats when you go back and refarm the bosses you have killed before, and try again next week with better gear.

Yeah but when bosses are turned around 54 traits, extra resets of gear barely help as the power creep in legion is far lower on gear than it was in previous expansions, I think this is what people do not understand. Imagine doing Krosus at 35-40 traits it would have at least taken a good 2-3 extra resets of Heroic TF/Mythic Gear to even remotely kill.

Also watcher confirmed the raid was designed around 54 traits, if they want to solve this in ToS buff the gear gain between ilvls so at least the power creep isn't all reliant on the weapon and the extra stamina to live through stupidly hard hitting abilities.

[Fang7986]

I mean, it's true though. I used to raid from 5 PM until 2 AM three days a week back in Wrath and that shit burned me out really hard. Having insane raiding schedules burns people out. And it's the top guild leaders that are the advocates of these schedules and insane lifestyles.

Sure, Blizzard could find a way to shut down that insane lifestyle by perhaps gating Mythic bosses on a schedule, but that would probably backfire on them for some reason.

Don't hate the game, hate the player.

This completely. players bitch about any gating Blizzard adds then they bitch when they get burned out. Blizzards job isn't to babysit people with no self control

[Deleted]

Fraking Blizzard ...Game is too casual now. Back in my days...



Fraking Blizzard! Game takes to much time. I am burned out...



Opinion from same MMOC expert...Get this, IT IS MYTHIC! Don't do it!
This whining would have been hilarious if it were not on MMOC.

Sure, endless farming of AP is so skilled.

[eschatological]

Here's the problem: You can have a mythic guild which doesn't enforce farming of some shit. We don't require alts, or split runs, or 54 traits in your weapons. We don't even require you to do your weekly m+15, let alone farm m+.

We raid 11 hours a week, and are 4/10M. And I'm okay with that progression, but as a raid leader, I've had to tell the people who only have that 11 hours a week to play that they're not good enough as the people who simply put in more time. We sat people because they were in the low 40s for traits, on bosses. And they're understandably upset because in previous expansions, you didn't need so much out-of-raid time to "keep up" with the rest of the raid. In fact, it's not since the days of farming consumables and resist gear (when people at the high end were easily doing 20+ hours just INSIDE the raid) that you've had such an out-of-raid "requirement." So for that "casual Mythic" raider that a) only likes the raiding aspect of the game, and b) doesn't have the time/want to spend the time outside of raid, they kind of get fucked.

And yes, I know, as a raid leader, I can still take these people with 40-42 traits. But then the people who have 54 traits get pissed because there's this perception that 1) players putting in less effort are getting rewarded in spite of it, and 2) these people are holding the raid back.

These are all conversations I've had with our other officers and various raiders this expansion.
-----------------------------------------
And the thing is, it could soooooooooooo easily be solved with a weekly AP cap. There was a VP cap, why isn't there an AP cap? Make it high, for all I care. Make it out of reach of the "casual" (in terms of ability to do content) player, but something progression raiders can attain. Make it 15-18m a week. I get about 1.5 a day from WQs, so that's 10.5m a week, and 10 bosses in Nighthold on normal/heroic drop about 1.5m on each difficulty, that's 13.5m. Then you only need to get 1.5m to 4.5m from m+ and M-NH and old raids/LFR, which is like, totally doable. And then, the RNG of world quests will make it so that some weeks you have to run less content like m+ etc. Or old raids/LFR, which don't give guaranteed AP drops, but one week you get really good RNG and, grats, now you only need 5 M+ between 10-15, instead of 8.

And then, it would be infinitely easier to tune these raid encounters. Because you would know, exactly, what the max player could, and would be at. It's mind-bogglingly easy. With this new paragon trait, you'll always feel behind the proverbial 8-ball if you're not constantly running M+ to get that extra AP that can help your raid out.

I just don't understand it.

- - - Updated - - -

This completely. players bitch about any gating Blizzard adds then they bitch when they get burned out. Blizzards job isn't to babysit people with no self control

And I have never, not once, bitched about gating in end-game content. I don't know any serious mythic raider who has. The main complaint from endgame raiders has been long end-expansion tiers. People bitch about LFR gating though. RIP. The logic is so flawed: it's like saying Blizzard can take out the weekly raid lockout because it should be on raiders to not run a raid 20 times a week. That's not the psychology of competitive people. If you can do it, and it helps your raid, why wouldn't you do it?

[Deleted]

Aren't you guys here supposed to be responsible, grown up person who know what they are in for when joining a mythic raiding guild? Adults who would be outraged if people told them how to live your life? Then act responsibly.

But they can't.... unless they have legendary BIS and AP and Maw of Souls their mean raid-leader will give their spot to someone else!1 Waaah Blizzard is ruining lives! And none of the casuals understand this because it's about staying competitive!1

Sometimes I wonder how life looks for these people. What their priorities are, when a videogame can have that kind of hold over their lives - when they lose their self-control completely and put themselves in situations where some overambitious raid leader (who has sadistic tendencies) controls their lives so completely.

It's weird.
I'm having fun with Legion and raids, but regarding the Dev Q&A, I thought it was quite boring to be honest - it focused on things like AP, legendaries and Mythic mostly. None of those things matter at all for me (or to most players I'd imagine).

[Deleted]

He's right though. It's not his job to protect players from themselves.

And still they tune 7/10 bosses around having 54 traits. If you dont understand the importance of the difference between e.g 45 and 54 traits you dont have any clue about mythic raiding. Losing 5% dps and 7.5% stamina is ALOT.