Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[rda]

Which expansion had more content than Legion?

We've had 20 raid bosses already on top of plenty of world bosses, on top of plenty of dungeons, with the first patch to introduce a new dungeon since Cataclysm (Karazhan), on top of another new dungeon and raid coming out soon, on top of World Quests.

No other expansion I've ever played (and I've played them all) has provided this amount of content.

MoP had more. WotLK likely had more as well.

Ie, WotLK added achievements. Show me an equivalent big system in Legion. There's none. Mythic+ is small peanuts compared to achievements, same for artifact.

Or take MoP. It added pet battles, a huge system. What did Legion add apart from infinite difficulty modes everywhere? What new gameplay did they do? None.

But let's even talk raids. Fine, Legion's tier 1 is 20 bosses and MoP's tier 1 is 16 bosses. 20 is more than 16. But it's been 6 months and that tier 1 isn't even fully there yet, it is still unlocking. These 20 bosses didn't even arrive completely yet. And after they arrive, there will be several more months where there are no new bosses coming. Yet if we were in MoP, we'd already have tier 2 opened. MoP wins again.

[cuafpr]

yep he is right, cold hard truth if a GL is demanding so much of their raiders they burnout that's on the leadership of the guild no blizzard. Ok so the content is tuned for 54 traits? That's more than fine, guilds will get there clear NH-> HC then into mythics once you get better geared/more traits HC - mythic progression, everyone is at 54 and geared strait into mythic on raid nights. Take time and enjoy it vs burning through it. If you want to be world top 10/ server first be ready for a major grind and burn, that's life.

[Vintersol]

You have a terrible memory.

MoP had scenarios (a new concept). MoP had pet battles (a new concept). MoP had challenge modes (a new concept). Etc.

MoP had tons more new content than Legion has.

It is characteristic that MoP added Brawler's Guild as a new concept, made from scratch in a patch. Legion only added a reskin of the first season. That's how these two expansions compare content-wise. All Legion has on MoP is a couple of endless grinds = "hey, please do this a thousand more times, we added a couple of bigger numbers for you to get, have fun!".

I want them to AT LEAST match MoP. We are supposed to have some progress, devs and people in general usually get better at things (like doing content) with time, but fine, just match. They can't so far. They are barely above WoD.

Yeah, at least i've seen the announcements on mmo-champion for:

PARAGON WORLDFIRST PETBATTLE!!!
PARAGON WORLDFIRST SCENARIOS!!!
METHOD WORLD FIRST BRAWLERS GUILD!!!

Woah woah woah, such content...

[Deleted]

He's a morron, but he's right, wow is meant to be casual friendly, legion is a mistake, which i enjoy very much but will not last, people cant stomach not getting what other people can get by putting more time and effort on it. They tried to realease different raid difficulty but its not enough, people wont be happy until they get the best gear/reward possible even if they play 5h a week.

[Deleted]

You have a terrible memory.

MoP had scenarios (a new concept). MoP had pet battles (a new concept). MoP had challenge modes (a new concept). Etc.

MoP had tons more new content than Legion has.

It is characteristic that MoP added Brawler's Guild as a new concept, made from scratch in a patch. Legion only added a reskin of the first season. That's how these two expansions compare content-wise. All Legion has on MoP is a couple of endless grinds = "hey, please do this a thousand more times, we added a couple of bigger numbers for you to get, have fun!".

I want them to AT LEAST match MoP. We are supposed to have some progress, devs and people in general usually get better at things (like doing content) with time, but fine, just match. They can't so far. They are barely above WoD.

Scenarios were met with disdain and dislike, which is why they didn't continue on with the idea.

Pet battles still exist in Legion.

Mythic plus is a better and improved version of Challenge Mode.

Brawler's Guild still exist with new encounters.

Your complaint seems to boil down to "I think they added more new things in MoP than Legion", not that MoP actually had more content for you to do, as all of the things you mentioned (except for Scenarios) exist in Legion as well. However, Legion does have additional things on top of that, a new dungeon after the expansion's release (MoP didn't have that), World Quests which are an improved version of daily quests, far more world bosses, a max level only zone (Suramar), profession quests, a class order hall, class and spec only quests.

Legion has far more content than MoP, and makes sure to keep it all relevant so it doesn't become obsolete.

[rda]

Pet Battle are still there and I don't care about them, but it's not like it went away. Scenarios and CM were done after one week. The only reason you ran scenarios after that was for the daily Valor.

Legion has Artifacts, M+ dungeons (way better system than CM btw), World Quests, 20 raids bosses in 6 months (without counting world bosses), 11 dungeons (soon to be 12), an evolving zone in Suramar. Class Halls, Battle Pets, and I'm sure that I'm missing some. Profs are also a lot more interesting (not saying I like it, but it's at least a step in the right direction, compared to the joke that it was during MoP). Also, you have real incentive to keep playing the game and revisit old contents. Was absolutely not the case in MoP.

Preferring MoP to Legion is perfectly fine, but saying it had more content is not only dishonest, it's flat out wrong.

I am not going to respond point by point, you are wrong almost everywhere. Ie, you take pet battles for MoP and pet battles for Legion like they are equal. They are not equal. Pet battles were a new system for MoP and they had like 400-450 pets at launch, tons of achievements, multiple new concepts added (ie, pet PVP). In Legion they only added something like a hundred pets, no new concepts. MoP wins on this item easily. It's the same with most of your other points.

[Tart]

TBF, people who are capable of getting WF don't complain that much.

I'd say that tryhards and hardcore wannabes are the ones who ruin it for everyone. The guys who are progressing through Heroic NH, yet do splits in Normals, ask for 54 traits in artefact, etc. They don't need it, but they just do it cuz that's what guys from WF guilds are doing. The guys who are progressing through Normal and complain about being benched cuz of not having BIS legendaries and/or 54 traits in artefact. Also the guys from world #21314 guild who are crying about being FORCED to grind to stay competitive. These are the people who whine A LOT about everything that's somewhat related to raiding, these are the people who make hardcore scene look pathetic.

Agree with that and the wannabee Kungens filter that mentality down to the next level of player, who feel they need to overgear just to do a stupid normal raid. It's either faceroll or fuck off.

[Ozyorkbourne]

He's not wrong though? he's just brutally honest and people don't want to admit it's their own damn fault for burning out so quickly.

If the legendary and AP systems were done properly, they wouldn't have too.

Tbf a lot of the top guilds don't seem to QQ over it a lot. They just do it then say "We can't do that again, we're burnt out. Ty for the support. Peace out". Which is fine.

But it highlights a bigger issue with the game right now and the flaws that probably had a lot of customer feedback but was ignored because Blizzard are confident they "know what they're doing".

It's funny. So many people suggested the legendary 'token' system where you could trade it for a legendary you wanted. Now in 7.2, a year too late, it's going to be implimented. Whoops?

[rda]

Pet battles still exist in Legion.

LOL, again. See my post above (#700).

Your problem, guys, is that you can't count. You are deeply undercounting MoP and overcounting Legion, that's why you get your bizarre result that Legion has more content when it has less.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Legion has far more content than MoP, and makes sure to keep it all relevant so it doesn't become obsolete.

so why did I play mop from start to finish, and in Legion I already barely log in apart from +15 once a week and NH once a week?

[DSRilk]

But they are tuning Mythic raids for EXACTLY that type of play. Do the Devs share zero responbility in your eyes, honestly?

The devs are the only ones who can actually change what is required... I pretty much guarantee most Mythic guilds would LOVE to see changes which meant that mythic raiding required less time commitment outside of raiding itself.

Let's say they tuned it lower. One guild, in order to get world first, would still play at those hours. Then all the other guilds would have to do the same to compete, returning to the cycle of complaints about it being required. It would just be "required" for a different reason. The only way to make it an actual competition would be to make a specific competitive raid "level" (mythic or a new one called "competitive") work off a base fixed template of stats so gear no longer matters, like they do for PvP. Then there would be no need for grinding anything. I'm sure people would still complain about something, however.

[Deleted]

He knows its a competitive game, so people will compete. I have said this before, if its just on the G leaders, remove realm first achievements and all associate mythic boss kill achievements. Make it impossible for logs to be exported so theres no more guild ranking. But, will he do that? Nope.
Then it's all talk, sorry to say.

[Sarevokcz]

Let's say they tuned it lower. One guild, in order to get world first, would still play at those hours. Then all the other guilds would have to do the same to compete, returning to the cycle of complaints about it being required. It would just be "required" for a different reason. The only way to make it an actual competition would be to make a specific competitive raid "level" (mythic or a new one called "competitive") work off a base fixed template of stats so gear no longer matters, like they do for PvP. Then there would be no need for grinding anything. I'm sure people would still complain about something, however.

probably about the fact, that they couldnt complete it in their social guilds eventually if gearing had no impact on the difficulty?

[Deleted]

MoP had more. WotLK likely had more as well.

Ie, WotLK added achievements. Show me an equivalent big system in Legion. There's none. Mythic+ is small peanuts compared to achievements, same for artifact.

Or take MoP. It added pet battles, a huge system. What did Legion add apart from infinite difficulty modes everywhere? What new gameplay did they do? None.

But let's even talk raids. Fine, Legion's tier 1 is 20 bosses and MoP's tier 1 is 16 bosses. 20 is more than 16. But it's been 6 months and that tier 1 isn't even fully there yet, it is still unlocking. These 20 bosses didn't even arrive completely yet. And after they arrive, there will be several more months where there are no new bosses coming. Yet if we were in MoP, we'd already have tier 2 opened. MoP wins again.

Achievements still exist in Legion and isn't exactly content in itself, it merely gives you another reason to run existing content, much like AP in Legion.

Pet battles still exist in Legion and I really wouldn't call it huge, but whatever floats your boat.

The reason they've spaced out the raids more in Legion is because MoP like other expansions had that teeny weeny little problem of, 12-14 months of nothing after the last raid tier's been added.

In WoD they held on to Blackrock Foundry for about three months I believe, it then turned out that they still unlocked it too early as the wait time for Legion became the longest one yet.

With Nighthold they held on to it for about 5-6 months I believe? Giving themselves a lot more time to develop future content (7.2 and 7.3).

Sorry but, although I think MoP was a great expansion, it didn't have anywhere near the amount of content that Legion does.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL, again. See my post above (#700).

Your problem, guys, is that you can't count. You are deeply undercounting MoP and overcounting Legion, that's why you get your bizarre result that Legion has more content when it has less.

Thank you for completely ignoring the rest of the post showing it's completely impossible to discuss with you. You're not interested in discussion, you just want to be angry and yell at people. Please do that somewhere else where no-one can hear you.

[Fleuria]

Let's say they tuned it lower. One guild, in order to get world first, would still play at those hours. Then all the other guilds would have to do the same to compete, returning to the cycle of complaints about it being required. It would just be "required" for a different reason. The only way to make it an actual competition would be to make a specific competitive raid "level" (mythic or a new one called "competitive") work off a base fixed template of stats so gear no longer matters, like they do for PvP. Then there would be no need for grinding anything. I'm sure people would still complain about something, however.

No one cared in EN about it, most people got there 27 traits then it wasn't really feasible to go higher at the time, also the raid wasn't no where near tuned to that high of a artifact level. ToV came around Helya was tuned for 35 traits and that's when it started and the obvious takeaway from Helya was well it's obvious 54 traits will be required for NH Mythic harder bosses and oh look it was the case.

I mean if they don't tune ToS around having ridiculous traits it will be fine but on the flip side they raid will probably be to easy like EN, unless they buff gear gain to make up for the gap.

[Butosai]

He knows its a competitive game, so people will compete. I have said this before, if its just on the G leaders, remove realm first achievements and all associate mythic boss kill achievements. Make it impossible for logs to be exported so theres no more guild ranking. But, will he do that? Nope.
Then it's all talk, sorry to say.

So your fix is to remove the only reason people raid competitively so theres no more reason to raid.??

[Dizzeeyooo]

it didn't have anywhere near the amount of content that Legion does

legion has basically the same amount of content compared to wod, the difference is they added rewards for repeatedly running that same content over and over

repeating content =/= new content, sorry

[Deleted]

Get rekt, by the truth...

[Vuagnon]

Which expansion had more content than Legion?

We've had 20 raid bosses already on top of plenty of world bosses, on top of plenty of dungeons, with the first patch to introduce a new dungeon since Cataclysm (Karazhan), on top of another new dungeon and raid coming out soon, on top of World Quests.

No other expansion I've ever played (and I've played them all) has provided this amount of content.

The grind on top of that is to make sure said content stays current and you always have something to do, I really don't see any problem with that. All other expansion's dungeons turned obsolete within a couple of months, and it's the reason they stopped adding new dungeons after the release of the expansion, because raids last longer than dungeons in terms of development time vs consuming it time.

Content on its own doesn't fix the major problem that is the lack of replayability.

1) Most of the world quests became pointless during end game, which is a major flaw. Epic items, which aren't upgrades, should have been made salvagable and integrated to the process of upgrading other items or stats.
2) Legendary and ap hunts are over for most of the end gamers, and they were both poorly thought out incentives to keep people around during the initial stages.
3) Rng is a bloody cancer, which totally destroys the motivation to keep going. Raid drops, as well as m+ rewards are completely random and there is no way to pursue an item other than mindlessly running the same dungeons over and over, which is just another reason to cause the burn.
4) The map is horrible compared to previous expansions. Artificially designed traps to make displacement take longer than usual instead of making a proper continent. Delaying flight deliberately for the same reason, destroying gathering nodes in tandem with the horrible terrain.
5) Lack of alternative progression and divergence. Lack of player decisions to mean something. There is nothing to decide about other than moving between a cleave and st talent during a raid, which is yet another fiasco imo because an on demand cleave ability should have already existed in my toolkit.
6) Time spent towards progression, for the purpose of getting your character stronger should have been made more meaningful. The rng factor should have been balanced by alternative mechanisms in order to balance the impact of luck and effort. This balance isn't maintained, the game has become a streamlined fest with no real purpose, identical classes, an illusionary progression without any depth and thought whatsoever.

If I were Ion, I'd look at the mirror before trying to put the entire blame on guild leaders.

There are still loads of things that could be done to reverse the current situation but I doubt the developers have the motivation for that because they are either lazy or doing this on purpose as they are ordered by their bosses to do so. Legion may have sold good numbers, don't know if they made enough money with it and are satisfied overall but given the potential and years of background, it is such an embarrassment to see a leading title incapable of delivering the depth and immersion of a modern day's mmorpg.

[Teri]

legion has basically the same amount of content compared to wod, the difference is they added rewards for repeatedly running that same content over and over

repeating content =/= new content, sorry

Agreed, 4 raid and 4 dungeon( & endless mythic+) difficulties is rehashing the same content, not 8 different modes of different content.

Mythic+ is the only one that changes each week due to affixes but really it's still very much the same bosses/lore/instances.