Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Nosdrone]

The addition of AP is the big contributor (according to the guilds themselves and MANY other customers/players) to the extra feeling of grindiness.

MANY other players? You mean the addicts on MMO Champion that make the "Why did you quit?" threads every day? Hoping that their saltiness and anger manages to make another addict angry and raise a pitchfork?

I haven't felt a single bit of grindiness in Legion. If I want to do WQs, I do them. If I don't, I don't. Same goes for dungeons, pet battles, and everything else.

You see, what I have is something called self control. I realize that there's no point in killing myself over a video game.

[Vuagnon]

You're still able to play an alt if you want, it just won't be on the same level as your main, which I think is fine.

1) True, this will be solved in 7.2 when the new traits are exponentially more expensive rather than linear. The rep items serve a purpose in 7.2, there you will be able to continue to gain reputation with a faction past exalted, and gain additional chests each time you fill their bar.

2) As a tank I already have the Legendaries I want and won't be exchanging them at all, Prydaz and the Legendary trinket. But that's preferentially based as I really like the absorption shields, min-max wise later on I might be better off switching around based on the encounter. Ion mentioned that even some of the hardcore raiders used Prydaz in some of their progression, which shows the strength of a Legendary that many previously hated and thought useless. So I think there's plenty of room to switch around between Legendaries based on the situation, but I don't have any examples at this time.

3) Hm, what would you suggest would help here?

4) I honestly don't think they designed the terrain in that way deliberately, I haven't noticed any real difference from WoD or Legion's terrain from MoP/Cata's/Wrath's where you could fly.

5) They've tried giving us choices within specs via talents and glyphs, it hasn't worked out as people still expect to be able to switch talent on a moment's notice. Even now in Legion where you can't change talents at will but require a tome or rested area, people switch all the time rendering the "choice" meaningless. The intention behind specs and talents is to reflect that person's decisions, to differentiate a player of class X from another player of class X. So far I would say Legion has done this best via Artifact Power and weapons.

I think if we could limit RNG and target specific rewards even more than we can now, we would quickly enter the territory of obtaining BIS and running out of things to do, giving further incentive to play the game non-stop and burn out even faster.

3) Epic items need to become salvagable. M+ runs need to drop additional mats so that you can blend them to improve the ilvl or a secondary stat of an item you desire. Crafting must be involved to decrease the impact of rng. Different recipes for buffing different things. A recipe that solely improves crit chance on an item for example or a recipe that adds a tertiary stat. And you can combine them with other recipes but making more upgrades would require more mats and gold. The grind would then have a meaning at least.

5) Specs feel almost identical. What I'd ideally like to see is even the same spec of the same class not performing identically. A ret paladin for example talenting purely for templar's verdict and execution sentence while another one for divine storm and consecration. The trouble here is though the number of people for dungeons is limited to 5 man and this concept may not work well with it because every spec requires to do its job at a fairly similar level. Another problem is for a sophisticated talent and stat system you would need to make real class balance changes and overhaul the way each spec plays. To tackle with this you would need either more specs locked in with different sets of gameplay and abilities or a much larger arsenal of abilities and talent choices regardless of spec. It's not an easy thing to do during an expansion.
For short term though they need to work upon ap and make it more interesting and make trait choices more impactful. The ideal solution is much more sophisticated than this though and requires a lot more resources and time.

[MisterBigglez]

Did people forget that MMORPGs are all about grinding? If raid leaders are burning you out, go find a new guild which suites you better. Not every guild is requiring you to have all 54 traits and for you to be doing non-stop m+ during downtime.

[ComputerNerd]

Because something is there you will do it.
It is a player made problem if you burnout.

Find the level that suits you.
Don't let what other people achieve define what you should be.

Be it a personal decision, or one you are pressured into.
It is player-made, as simple as that.

There is nothing to stop you walking 50 miles a day.
It is perfectly accessible, but there is a reason you don't.

You lack control.
Don't blame blizzard for that.

[IceMan1763]

Got a problem with it then feel free to report me to the mods. You called the game a Korean grindfest when it is nothing on par with one. Also think I've said it like 3 times not the "100s" you claim in the past year. But nice to see you making up numbers to be over dramatic about it.

This game is far from being on par with Korean MMOs. Hell it's far away from being on par with pre 2004 MMOs.

Also if your goal is world first you will play as hard as you can no matter what. Kind of the whole point of being a world first guild. It's not unique to Legion.

I'm not going to report you... I've never reported anyone. I thought I asked fairly nicely and I know I've seen you do it before. You seem at least somewhat intelligent so you must know it's condescending and not conducive to constructive discussion.

Considering the level of grinding required to participate in the world first race, I don't think the comparison to a Korean MMO is out of line. Korean MMOs often also feature infinite progression/leveling systems just like the current dev team is hellbent on adding to Legion. Obviously you dislike the comparison, and that's fine.

You last line reveals part of the problem. The nature of world first guilds is well known, so either Blizzard cares about the world first race or they don't. I would just like them to announce it one way or another. Ion has stated in the past that he doesn't like how split raiding is basically required, so he obviously has some inkling of how there are unfair elements to the world first race. There are clear and already present options (because it's in PVP) like disabling paragon traits, which would be a great idea IMO to do for the world first race, turning them on slowly as an "ICC like" buff and negating the need for guild leaders to push their raiders to play unhealthy amounts.

Sitting by and doing nothing while blaming guild leaders whose goal is world first clears is a sad state of affairs. Either announce you just don't care and live with the fallout or come up with solutions to level the playing field and reduce the need to play 80 hours a week to compete for a world first.

[Ishayu]

Let's say they tuned it lower. One guild, in order to get world first, would still play at those hours. Then all the other guilds would have to do the same to compete, returning to the cycle of complaints about it being required. It would just be "required" for a different reason. The only way to make it an actual competition would be to make a specific competitive raid "level" (mythic or a new one called "competitive") work off a base fixed template of stats so gear no longer matters, like they do for PvP. Then there would be no need for grinding anything. I'm sure people would still complain about something, however.

This game used to have something called lockouts created specifically to prevent this. Maybe it's time to bring them back. They were too restrictive in WoD, but maybe the vanilla model would do wonders. You do one difficulty per week and you can do each instance once. If you do it more, no loot. There you go, now you CAN'T spam 50 Maw of Souls.

But the whole "play 5 alts and farm legendaries" thing? 100% on guilds. Stop doing it.

[Raelbo]

when talking about the latest datamined info regarding the new paragon trait coming in 7.2 and how they would have done things differently regarding the 7.0 version was that they "wouldn't balance around it going forward".

Sorry but your argument here is thin. You're trying to cherry pick a single line and then attach a meaning to it which flies totally contrary the entire context of what the guy is saying.

And if you're going to quote him, put in a time reference, because I couldn't find him saying that exactly. What I did hear him saying a lot of (52:00 - 53:00) what was the the design intent of the paragon traits wasn't for people to feel it's mandatory and while he can understand that some raiders felt the need to pursue every point of AP, it wasn't the intent. It was a perception and they want to try and make it so that even for people who for some reason could not in the past apply common sense and figure this out for themselves, it should now going forward be more obvious.

[impending doom]

Nice thread...

It's an 1 hour interview where he actually talks multiple times about how they're not happy about the way the game currently rewards extensive grinding, and that they're planning to change that. Then you take a 30 sec clip out of the context where he puts "a little blame on some of the leaders and members.." and everyone's ignoring the rest of the interview?

He is even right there that some people are over exaggerating the situation and worrying more about the grind than they should.

[IceMan1763]

MANY other players? You mean the addicts on MMO Champion that make the "Why did you quit?" threads every day? Hoping that their saltiness and anger manages to make another addict angry and raise a pitchfork?

I haven't felt a single bit of grindiness in Legion. If I want to do WQs, I do them. If I don't, I don't. Same goes for dungeons, pet battles, and everything else.

You see, what I have is something called self control. I realize that there's no point in killing myself over a video game.

Have you seen the reaction to the announcement of more paragon traits for 7.2? Yeah... clearly they're super popular with majority of the playerbase.

[Nosdrone]

Have you seen the reaction to the announcement of more paragon traits for 7.2? Yeah... clearly they're super popular with majority of the playerbase.

People on forums aren't the "majority of the playerbase" by any means. The "majority of the playerbase" are currently doing LFRs and pet battles.

I don't pay attention to complaining. Let me guess... something about needing to play 80+ hours a week to raid or other BS?

[Sansnom]

It's kinda sad that so many people blame blizzard for their hopeless addiction and lack of self control. If you are burnt out its your own fault. Mythic raiders are the biggest cry babies I've ever seen in gaming.

It is not new. Some people simply refuse to acknowledge they are at fault and are to blame. Shifting the responsibility allows them to deny they have a problem.

[Dequanacus]

Weird, I also read him talking about about the difficulties about being a raid leader and how the team has to work on bettering mythic raiding. I guess taking out a single clip to get furious about is a little stupid. Just my opinion.

[Ishayu]

People on forums aren't the "majority of the playerbase" by any means. The "majority of the playerbase" are currently doing LFRs and pet battles.

I don't pay attention to complaining. Let me guess... something about needing to play 80+ hours a week to raid or other BS?

Basically. For some reason people seem to think that you can't do the content without farming a million Maw of Souls in a row on 5 alts with 15 legendaries between them playoing 80 hours a week to get there. This is plainly not true, you just won't do it first.

[Desparil]

Have you seen the reaction to the announcement of more paragon traits for 7.2? Yeah... clearly they're super popular with majority of the playerbase.

What majority reaction? If you think 50 people on mmoc or official forums who complain about everything lol.

[IceMan1763]

I don't pay attention to complaining.

Ion.... is that you????

[Raelbo]

Considering the level of grinding required to participate in the world first race, I don't think the comparison to a Korean MMO is out of line. Korean MMOs often also feature infinite progression/leveling systems just like the current dev team is hellbent on adding to Legion.

But the world first race isn't about the game design. It's about how much time and effort your competition is putting in. So no, the legion AP progression is nothing like a Korean grindfest. The idea is not to grind AP, but to get it as the result of doing stuff you like.

The nature of world first guilds is well known, so either Blizzard cares about the world first race or they don't. I would just like them to announce it one way or another. Ion has stated in the past that he doesn't like how split raiding is basically required, so he obviously has some inkling of how there are unfair elements to the world first race. There are clear and already present options (because it's in PVP) like disabling paragon traits, which would be a great idea IMO to do for the world first race, turning them on slowly as an "ICC like" buff and negating the need for guild leaders to push their raiders to play unhealthy amounts.

You don't seem to get it. Disabling paragon traits won't stop guild leaders from pushing their raiders to play unhealthy amounts. They will simply find some other thing to spend their time doing. The problem here is, as Ion said, with those guild leaders who don't understand moderation, who push themselves and their guilds beyond what they can cope with because they are hellbent on winning.

I think Blizzard probably does care about the world first race, but they probably also recognise that it has become somewhat insane. As such they probably are cautious about encouraging that type of play, because it's not healthy, but at the same time they don't want to alienate their players. So they keep quiet about it.

[Nosdrone]

Ion.... is that you????

Nope, Ion speaks much more eloquently than I do. I'd tell the addicts to their faces that if they want to kill themselves over some e-fame that no one will care about in six months, go for it. The rest of the playerbase will do things in due time.

[Axelond]

Top Overwatch teams probably train/play 10x harder than any wow guild. But blizzard likes that scene and gives a lot prize money to tournments meanwhile wow pve gets nothing.

[Deleted]

Primarily because adding a cap goes against the idea of AP, that you will always obtain something for running content. For example; say that a friend wants you to join for a dungeon run, you know that you won't need the gear in there but at least you'll get some AP. As well as, if there was a cap, people who missed said cap for various reasons such as real life, would forever be behind.

Thats why you implement rested AP or some kind of cath up mechanics (ex. no cap till you are back in line with everyone). Also by cap I mean that you could still get AP regardless if you reached it or not, it would just stay in your bags for your off spec or for next week so you dont have to farm as much.

Right now every single AP gain should go into your main spec unless for some personal reason you choose not to. Even playing alts feel like a waste of time you could invest on your main instead.

[Arkura]

Classic blizzard right there, blaming the players and not themselves. Nighthold mythic beyond the 3rd boss is tuned for 54 artifact traits, so im guessing that's the player's fault...

To be honest, being 54 traits isnt a really big deal right now. I'm in a casual raiding guild thats still progressing HC and I recently rerolled to Rogue, had to go from AK lvl 15 and up to 25 wich I got today and I'm at artifact level 46 right now with not much effort.