I'd like to know what views of Le Pen's in particular make her right wing?

[JohnBrown1917]

For the last time I am asking you to point out the things in their programme that made nazis right wing. And no social hierarchy is not an answer. And Hitler hated communists, not socialists, hence the name of his party.

He did hate socialists, try reading mein kampf.
Social heirachy is a huge part of the far right, so you'll have to deal with that answer.

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That is why I said that the communists sucess in persuading the rest of the world that nazis were right wing was one of the biggest propaganda coups in history.

Its more like far rigth propaganda to convince people they are not far right.
The far righr can do no evil!

[Zoranon]

He did hate socialists, try reading mein kampf.
Social heirachy is a huge part of the far right, so you'll have to deal with that answer.

Talking with you is like talking to a wall. But since I am in a good mood, I will make one more attempt.

When you are far right or left, it means you have a more extreme policies of centre right or left parties. Care to point out parts of nazi programme that fit this bill? As was stated before, their economical programme would place them in a far left slot...

[Acidbaron]

The answer to your question was in the post you quoted...

But since we are at it, care to point out the far right aspects of their programme, except for being racist?

Authoritarian, conservative view to the extreme that any tradition must be held and all foreign influences were not just bad they were seen as lesser influences, this ideology even extended to individuals. People tend to see them only as left if you nit pick only the socialist programs out of their ideology, in this day and age social programs in europe are seen in all parties and only the uninformed tend to think of them as a pure left talking point.

[Triks]

We are talking about why Nazis are right wing though, I could give less of a shit about commies,

The Nazis are the right-wing clones of the communists.

And bingo!

Communists and nazis had very similar programmes, the only difference between them was which part of the society they victimised.

That is why I said that the communists sucess in persuading the rest of the world that nazis were right wing was one of the biggest propaganda coups in history.

Eh? Nazism is what happens when fascists decide to have a welfare state.


Oh right, I get what you guys are arguing about. As a political ideology, nazism is far-right because it's an offspring of fascism. As an economic policy, it is left-wing. As an ideology, nazism serves as an alternative to both free-market capitalism and a state controlled economy in the sense that private ventures are incentivised and tolerated so long as it benefits the state.

[Zoranon]

Its more like far rigth propaganda to convince people they are not far right.
The far righr can do no evil!

Do you ever post anything of value?

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Authoritarian, conservative view to the extreme that any tradition must be held and all foreign influences were not just bad they were seen as lesser influences, this ideology even extended to individuals. People tend to see them only as left if you nit pick only the socialist programs out of their ideology, in this day and age social programs in europe are seen in all parties and only the uninformed tend to think of them as a pure left talking point.

Because communists were not essentially the same thing. If you want to place nazis on the other pole then communists, you need to find things that differ them, not unite them.

[Acidbaron]

Talking with you is like talking to a wall. But since I am in a good mood, I will make one more attempt.

When you are far right or left, it means you have a more extreme policies of centre right or left parties. Care to point out parts of nazi programme that fit this bill? As was stated before, their economical programme would place them in a far left slot...

If you figure out why the state changed his economical program to this, you'll learn it has very little to do with a left leaning ideology and everything to do with the aftermath of WW 1.

[Zoranon]

The Nazis are the right-wing clones of the communists.

This just doesnt pass the smell test, if you are a clone, you belong on the same ideological pole, not on the opposite one.

[JohnBrown1917]

Do you ever post anything of value?
.

Do you?
Since when is the extreme kind of social hierarchy the nazis wanted not right wing? Or are we just gonna sit here and pretend the far right wing has no extremely toxic policies?

[Acidbaron]

Do you ever post anything of value?

Because communists were not essentially the same thing. If you want to place nazis on the other pole then communists, you need to find things that differ them, not unite them.

It's not the same thing since communism wasn't about the same thing the nazi regime was, also Russia or even at that time the USSR is such a melting pot of backgrounds. There was a very different ideology going round in both and then only thing they shared was the authoritarian nature of their rulers, but we both no that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Not sure why you are trying so hard to avoid looking at both regimes fully and not just nitpicking what suits your political views or whatever odd reason you might have to question history.

[Zoranon]

If you figure out why the state changed his economical program to this, you'll learn it has very little to do with a left leaning ideology and everything to do with the aftermath of WW 1.

So you have two parties of society with a far left economical programme. One party wants to wipe out the rich, the other the jews. But one party is far right, the other far left. This just does not make sense.

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Do you?
Since when is the extreme kind of social hierarchy the nazis wanted not right wing? Or are we just gonna sit here and pretend the far right wing has no extremely toxic policies?

The fifth time I am asking you this: point out the far right portions of nazi programme. And in case that wasn't obvious, extreme kind of social hierarchy is not a programme.

[Triks]

This just doesnt pass the smell test, if you are a clone, you belong on the same ideological pole, not on the opposite one.

It depends on the persecuted group.

Communism (in particular Leninism and Trotsykism) do not have nationalistic tendencies. They believe in a world-wide working class revolt. They are internationalists.

Right-wing politics on the other hand are focused on the nation state. That's why I said the "right-wing clones" because they have a lot more in common with communists then free-market capitalists.

If clone is too harsh then cousin maybe?

[unbound]

Every time she is talked about in the news she is given the right wing label and I would just like to on what basis she is given that label beyond being anti eu. I'm willing to bet that most of her views people in the us would consider to be pretty moderate if she was running for congress.

Just because she's leading a softening of an extremist version of right-wing doesn't change the fact that she is still very much right-wing.

She is still hard line anti-immigration, advocates increasing size and authority of police forces as well as increasing prisons, pushes potentially unlawful / unconstitutional policy of 'native French' first for all benefits, looking to be the next "brexit" country, and she still maintains strong ties to right-wing populist and far right groups around Europe. Many of these things are the first steps toward authoritarianism.

[Zoranon]

It depends on the persecuted group.

Communism (in particular Leninism and Trotsykism) do not have nationalistic tendencies. They believe in a world-wide working class revolt. They are internationalists.

Right-wing politics on the other hand are focused on the nation state. That's why I said the "right-wing clones" because they have a lot more in common with communists then free-market capitalists.

If clone is too harsh then cousin maybe?

I just dont see enough difference between communism and nazism to place them on two opposite poles. There are some certainly, but Stalins communism in one country was very nationalist.

Proper far right parties are libertarians calling for minimal/no state and absolute individual freedom, not authoritarian control freaks.

[Acidbaron]

So you have two parties of society with a far left economical programme. One party wants to wipe out the rich, the other the jews. But one party is far right, the other far left. This just does not make sense.

If that's your entire understanding of the nazi regime and their economical program, what a matter of fact is nitpicking the only thing the remotely resemblance it's no wonder you can't see it.

Honestly you have been given plenty of examples why their core ideology is conservative and thus right wing but all you seem to do is go and point out how they nationalized their industry since it was in shambles due to the outcome of the first world war what destroyed a lot of their economy and got the state deeply into debts.

The information to learn more about all this is out there, you have shown no real interest in learning about these things since you fall back on one thing only, if you don't see by now you're intentionally ignoring things that don't match your talking points there really is no use to continue on this, i also don't see why anyone has an issue with calling a spade a spade either. I have no problem admitting that the nazi regime is an ugly outcome of extreme conservative believes, i'm not ashamed of this, i'm aware of this and i find we need to keep being reminded of this to not repeat the same mistake again.

[Triks]

I just dont see enough difference between communism and nazism to place them on two opposite poles. There are some certainly, but Stalins communism in one country was very nationalist.

Proper far right parties are libertarians calling for minimal/no state and absolute individual freedom, not authoritarian control freaks.

You are confusing political and economic spectrums. Let's take libertarianism, for example. Libertarianism - the right-leaning ideology - is the political element which favors liberty and individualism. The economic model under libertarianism is free-market capitalism. National Socialism is, again, made up of two elements - the politically far-right leaning nationalism - and the left-leaning socialism.


Stalinism is a brand of communism where the revolution should be in one state. Stalin himself feared the other countries because they bankrolled the white guard during the civil war and were openly hostile to him and the ideas of the revolution.

[Zoranon]

If that's your entire understanding of the nazi regime and their economical program, what a matter of fact is nitpicking the only thing the remotely resemblance it's no wonder you can't see it.

Honestly you have been given plenty of examples why their core ideology is conservative and thus right wing but all you seem to do is go and point out how they nationalized their industry since it was in shambles due to the outcome of the first world war what destroyed a lot of their economy and got the state deeply into debts.

The information to learn more about all this is out there, you have shown no real interest in learning about these things since you fall back on one thing only, if you don't see by now you're intentionally ignoring things that don't match your talking points there really is no use to continue on this, i also don't see why anyone has an issue with calling a spade a spade either. I have no problem admitting that the nazi regime is an ugly outcome of extreme conservative believes, i'm not ashamed of this, i'm aware of this and i find we need to keep being reminded of this to not repeat the same mistake again.

I wish people would at least read what I wrote before writing walls of text, those walls of text could then be useful.

You pretending that having a hard left economical programme is not important is kinda cute, but rather tiresome.

Ah yes, the ultimate discussion shitpost, the information is out there, but you dont have the interest to learn it.

[Deleted]

Some nationalism is ok, the Far Right is not for "some nationalism", they usually espouse Ultra Nationalist ideas, including protectionism. You can be ok with that, but that is just because you are right leaning. A left leaning person values people over nations.

The left values the state over people, humans value humans over nations.

[Zoranon]

You are confusing political and economic spectrums. Let's take libertarianism, for example. Libertarianism - the right-leaning ideology - is the political element which favors liberty and individualism. The economic model under libertarianism is free-market capitalism. National Socialism is, again, made up of two elements - the politically far-right leaning nationalism - and the left-leaning socialism.


Stalinism is a brand of communism where the revolution should be in one state. Stalin himself feared the other countries because they bankrolled the white guard during the civil war and were openly hostile to him and the ideas of the revolution.

Well yes, but by the end of 1920s Stalinism was the dominant communist ideology. As such it must be this brand of communism that is compared with nazism, not Trotskys world revolution or anything else.

And Stalinism was nationalist, so that is yet another similarity with nazism. In the end, if you make this comparison, nazism and Stalinism have many more thing in common, than things that separate them.

[Jastall]

You have still not answered my question, what makes Nazis right wing apart from the fact that you think right wing is racist? They were a socialist party with tacked on nationalism, they were not right wing.

That's of course why Hitler was so staunchly supported by industrialists, a good number of old money politicians, raging antisemites and the Prussian military establishment. Which we all know to be such bastions of left-wing sentiments /s.

Or why private companies such as Porsche, Volkswagen, Hugo Boss and many others flourished under Nazi rule.

Why Nazis first made themselves known by beating up Union strikers.

Why the SA were violently purged from the party when they started to exhibit left-wing tendencies.

Or why the Nazi state was actually extraordinarily decentralized and competitive, especially compared to the USSR which was grossly centralized. A big reason was that Hitler was such a lazy dictator while Stalin was a paranoid workholic, but still.

And you speak as if social hierarchy was just a part of Nazism. It was its very core. The entire idea behind Nazism is that strong nations and races must rule over weak nations and races, and that differences must be established between superior and inferior beings. That's anathema to the ideas of socialism and communism.

Do your research, they weren't left wing. Just because they slapped ''socialist'' in their party name doesn't make them one. And for the time, ''National-Socialist German Worker's Party'' would basically read like ''Conservative-Liberal American Taxpayer's Party'' does today. It's a bunch of buzzwords thrown together for maximum political coverage.


Anyway, as for Le Pen, she's not ''far-right'' as in ''literally a Nazi'' (albeit her dad is pretty damn close to that) but she's definitely as far right as French politics go; promoting traditional values, being tough on crime (as if the French justice system wasn't enough of a shitshow), very anti-immigration and suspicious of Islam, and anti-EU which is more often a right-wing stance in Europe these days since it is often done in the name of nationalism and patriotism.

Her only somewhat left-wing stance is leaving free trade zones, but it seems these days these sorts of policies tie so heavily into nationalism (as seen with Trump) that I'm not sure they are left or right wing anymore. Used to be, left wanted limited trade to promote worker's rights and protectionism, right wanted free trade for that sweet, sweet money. Now the situations almost seem reversed.

[Triks]

Well yes, but by the end of 1920s Stalinism was the dominant communist ideology. As such it must be this brand of communism that is compared with nazism, not Trotskys world revolution or anything else.

And Stalinism was nationalist, so that is yet another similarity with nazism. In the end, if you make this comparison, nazism and Stalinism have many more thing in common, than things that separate them.

The most critical thing that separates them is their view of public property. Nazis favor and allow public property but because they are authoritarians in nature they allow only the ones that benefit the state and its well-being.

As both communism and nazism are authoritarian regimes there will be similarities.