Is Nighthold too easy on melee dps?

[Rheckameohs]

How is doing low damage while carrying those who can tunnel anything about fairness?

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but to be fair, you can't kill a boss without sufficient damage, and the bit about melee having to deal with tank mechanics still stands.

I haven't played in a while, but in my experience, a lot of mechanics that are designed to be handled by ranged can be assigned to a small handful of people. In a ranged-heavy group, it's not out of the question for some ranged to tunnel.

Looks like we had different classes in fairness then. One get fame and rankings, other get dirty jobs and bitch slapping tasks. Fair? Not so fair. Fair is melees and ranged getting same number of raid mechanics. And no, sorry, the "omg the boss is cleaving so we have to be behind his back all the time" is not a mechanics of any sort

Short-ranged AoE is a thing. There are also fights like Will of the Emperor where the bosses spend half of the fight cleaving.

[Deleted]

Yes, legion raids are very melee friendly. It's beyond me why raid leaders keep prioritizing ranged > melee...

Its because range have more room to be able to interact with the encounter.

Krosus : stopping adds from spawning mid/back easier for range.
Tich : overcrowding melee and swarm
Botanist: Adds + orb dps are easier for range
Elisande: absorbs
Trillax : cakes
Star : frost/fel injection ( if melee need to move away its a complete dps loss)
Guldan: Quicker to get to bonds, less worry about flame patches.


So while it's easy on melee and they can do all the above , fights become easy with ranged.

[melodramocracy]

yeah and that is a good thing. Atleast for progress and peace of mind.

In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts.

It is a bit on the extreme side in LEGION and especially Nighthold that ranges have to do all the work while melees are tunneling the boss, but that is only logical considering how easy it is to perform well as a melee, to churn out good dps compared to range players.

Some bosses are a bit too much like Gul'Dan, mythic trilliax and a few others where it basically comes down to : "melee players you can hurr durr the boss while the range players master all the mechanics and make sure we don't wipe on the boss".
Sadly on some bosses like Botanist it happens too often that melee players are getting hit by the lashers while they are drooling on their keyboard, but thankfully Blizzard realized that with LEGION and the introduction of a new melee class, the Demon Hunter, that a very big majority of the "noobs" are ultimately drawn to that new shiny immature "I am so cool I am illidan" class that they made sure the biggest parts of the difficulties that raiding holds are best left for the range players.

Overall I think Blizzard did a good job. Sure it is annoying as a range player to carry those guys, but I would rather have it the way it currently is compared to a world where we need to rely on melees playing properly.
I for one am happy that Blizzard, and also raidleaders, are letting the melees do what they do best. Tunneling the boss and delight themselves over the damage meters where they always take the top spots for reasons beyond their comprehensive abilities.

This post is top shelf, actually brought a tear to my eye.

[l33t]

Because for melee to soak the far end of the bridge, he's actually running 100 yards (to go and return trip) while a range could cover that in 20. You can't have entire melee go soak the back bridge and expect to beat the enrage timer

Yeah, that's why all melees have millions of gap closers, sprints, charges, etc. While ranged have little to no.

[Deleted]

ink you are misunderstanding what side I am on here. I don't know why that is.

Everything is fine the way it is. Everyone wins. Melees can tunnel boss and range players complete the difficult mechanics.
That is what I am saying all along.

I agree. Melee players are more stupid in general. Activision Blizzard just understands that as well.

Another example: cannot count the number of times when a melee player was so engrossed in tunnelling the boss during Chronomatic Anomaly that they did not even think anyone would put a Time Bomb on them. Clearly, we wiped.
Melee is just used to not getting targeted by boss mechanics. And when they do get targeted, it is usually a couple of wipes until those players can be explained some nuances about the fight that do not involve smashing buttons.

[jayheals]

first week of mythic trilliax was fun listening to all the melee retards complain about eating cake because our ranged and healers were already debuffed. super fun running around the encounter area jumping on scrubbers doing no damage and then trying to convince 1 melee to leave the boss for 4 seconds to eat a cake.

[Deleted]

Its because range have more room to be able to interact with the encounter.

Krosus : stopping adds from spawning mid/back easier for range.
Tich : overcrowding melee and swarm
Botanist: Adds + orb dps are easier for range
Elisande: absorbs
Trillax : cakes
Star : frost/fel injection ( if melee need to move away its a complete dps loss)
Guldan: Quicker to get to bonds, less worry about flame patches.


So while it's easy on melee and they can do all the above , fights become easy with ranged.

Exactly.

And I do have a warrior alt and I want to thank all range players, especially when I join random nhc and hc Nighthold groups on my melee alt, that they are helping the raid along by doing the mechanics

[iky43210]

Yeah, we really don't need to discuss this. We are on the same side here and those are just facts.
If I were a raidleader I would do the same, because it is only logical to do so.

Don't know what people are upset about here. Everyone, including Blizzard, does agree that it is best for everyone if the difficult mechanics are designed in a way that ranges are destined to complete them.

I think you are misunderstanding what side I am on here. I don't know why that is.

Everything is fine the way it is. Everyone wins. Melees can tunnel boss and range players complete the difficult mechanics.
That is what I am saying all along.

I disagree with your analysis because of how you reach the conclusion, not the end result itself.

aka stop being a condescending asshole.
Infracted;

[Rheckameohs]

Yeah, that's why all melees have millions of gap closers, sprints, charges, etc. While ranged have little to no.

... Because they're ranged. Gap closers are meant to get you into range.

Come on, man.

[iky43210]

Yeah, that's why all melees have millions of gap closers, sprints, charges, etc. While ranged have little to no.

Yeah that's not true at all.

[Deleted]

I disagree with your analysis because of how you reach the conclusion, not the end result itself.

aka stop being a condescending asshole.

I am not condescending. I really respect you and your valuable opinion. Well except for the completely out of touch insult at the end. Which is very nasty

[l33t]

... Because they're ranged. Gap closers are meant to get you into range.

Come on, man.

Well, its his math blabbing about boohoohoo whole 100 yards. While the reality looks like this:

melee (example: war) uses heroic jump and in a couple of seconds he is standing at the soak target. he soaks mechanics, use charge and in a second he is beating the boss.

while

ranged has to move to the target on their own, soak mechanics and then move back on their own again.

It is a serious question, who actually loses more damage in such scenarios. Considering most ranged can do jack's shit on the move.

[iky43210]

I am not condescending. I really respect you and your valuable opinion. Well except for the completely out of touch insult at the end. Which is very nasty

"In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts."

Keep telling yourself that.

[Deleted]

"In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts."

Keep telling yourself that.

Wait so if I tell a dirty lie and say "melee players are just as good as range players" you'd be okay with that despite me not telling the truth?

What is happening with people. Comforting lies are not the answers even if they are easy to digest. The uncomfortable truth is what we all should really strife for even if it is hard

[iky43210]

Well, its his math blabbing about boohoohoo whole 100 yards. While the reality looks like this:

melee (example: war) uses heroic jump and in a couple of seconds he is standing at the soak target. he soaks mechanics, use charge and in a second he is beating the boss.

while

ranged has to move to the target on their own, soak mechanics and then move back on their own again.

It is a serious question, who actually loses more damage in such scenarios.

Obviously all melee are warriors that can leap to specific locations, and range can't just blink/disengage/teleport/displacement beast or walk a couple yards to their location.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait so if I tell a dirty lie and say "melee players are just as good as range players" you'd be okay with that despite me not telling the truth?

What is happening with people. Comforting lies are not the answers even if they are easy to digest. The uncomfortable truth is what we all should really strife for even if it is hard

Well, it would just make you an honest asshole. They're not mutually exclusive

[Varaben]

In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts.

Good bait though.

I would love to know how you came to this "fact,", but I think we both know it's probably just nonsense.

[eschatological]

Because for melee to soak the far end of the bridge, he's actually running 100 yards (to go and return trip) while a range could cover that in 20. You can't have entire melee go soak the back bridge and expect to beat the enrage timer

No one's asking the melee to go tot he back of the bridge unless absolutely necessary. The ranged get the furthest ones away, the melee get the medium-distance ones, everyone is out of range of the boss except the tanks and our hpally who soak in front.

But the bitching I hear about losing boss uptime comes completely from melee, even though both groups are about 30 yards from a place where they can hit the boss.

[Deleted]

Well, it would just make you an honest asshole. They're not mutually exclusive

Fair enough. I may not be the nicest person

[Rheckameohs]

Well, its his math blabbing about boohoohoo whole 100 yards. While the reality looks like this:

melee (example: war) uses heroic jump and in a couple of seconds he is standing at the soak target. he soaks mechanics, use charge and in a second he is beating the boss.

while

ranged has to move to the target on their own, soak mechanics and them move back on their own again.

It is a serious question, who actually loses more damage in such scenarios.

Assuming a warrior is being played? Heroic Leap has a range of 45 yards; Charge, 25 yards. If the soak point is 100 yards away, the warrior has to run 55 yards before the soak point is within range of Heroic Leap. Once he soaks the mechanic, he has to move 75 yards before he can Charge the boss. Total movement is 130 yards. And remember, warriors are one of the more mobile melee classes.

A hunter (I'm using hunter as an example because they deal with mechanics 99% of the time) has an attack range of 40 yards. In order to get to the soak point 100 yards away, he has to move 60 yards there and back for a total of 120 yards. Already, the warrior has to move 10 more yards than the hunter. Hunters also have abilities like Disengage, which can be used for the exact opposite of its intended purpose.

In summary, accounting for total movement time, the melee loses out on more damage.

[eschatological]

Nobody's asking a melee to go 100 yards. Personally, I disagree with melee soaking bonds on Gul'dan, we don't ask our melee to do that.

Where they do need to get off the boss is a boss like Krosus, where EVERYONE is running out of range. Ranged are going about 70-90 yards out (30-50 yards from max range) and melee are going 30-50 yards out, sometimes more, if the puddles are further back. It's equitable. But it's harder to get melee to do it, because the whole raid is otherwise "melee, tunnel the boss."

Edit: If I wanted to really min-max, I'd let ranged soak <40, so they can keep DPSing the boss, while the melee ran out 40+, but then we'd run into the melee not willing to commit to the 70+ pools, and we'd wipe.